MIndset of Marines - Publicized Falluah Killing

We've all heard about the unarmed guy in the mosque who was taken out by the Jarhead recently. We've heard everyone's opinion on whether the killing was righteous or not. Did his training just kick in ("it's the training you know... it just takes over...") or was he a sad product of the Playstation Generation who thought he was playing Ghost Recon?

This is getting real close to issues that were brought up during the Vietnam war.

What would you personally have done in this Marine's place?

i dont know myself but i think mabye he done the right thing.
did the marine search him for any weapons?

Originally posted by no such agency
We've all heard about the unarmed guy in the mosque who was taken out by the Jarhead recently. We've heard everyone's opinion on whether the killing was righteous or not. Did his training just kick in ("it's the training you know... it just takes over...") or was he a sad product of the Playstation Generation who thought he was playing Ghost Recon?

Neither. He is in a war, stress got to him. Im not justifying it but knowing they at times they pretend to be dead to sneak attack them I may have done the same.

The question that should be asked is "why on earth he did he do what he did while the camera was rolling?"

I am sure that our troops are facing difficult times in Iraq, and that due to the type of tactics that insurgents are using they feel that anything should be treated as a threat.

Sometimes cameras should be taken away from the areas of actual combat and only allowed after the troops finish their job.

I agree that we should know what is going on in the battle field but also our troops should be given the room for taking decisions in the middle of the battle.

My husband a retired Marine is very upset for the media to been allowed to air a video that make our troops look like killers when we will never know if the decision they make is what they feel is safe for them and the media that was present.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by marg6043]

It's a really tough call as far as I'm concerned. I don't know much about USMC SOPs, but most professional military organizations consider that making sure an enemy is dead is world's best practice. You don't want that corpse to suddenly spring to life and shoot you or your buddies in the back.

It's a little abiguous though:

The mosque had apparently been cleared by another patrol. Reconnaissance by fire?
Why was the dead guy playing possum unless he had something to lose other than his life? Especially if he was waiting for a medevac after being treated a couple of days before by the same marines that wounded him.
The Survivor in the mosque was saying that he had been an informant - what was he informing about - specifically? Was this an insurgent cell?

It's kind of complicated and I wasn't there.

NSA

Originally posted by deevee
The question that should be asked is "why on earth he did he do what he did while the camera was rolling?"

One of the cameramen said that after a while, they just blend in and people don't even think about the cameras anymore.

yeah they should do double tap on them during the assualt.
thats what our SRMO said.
but if he was alive he would have been good intel source.
though depends if they where on "no prisnors taken" orders.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by devilwasp]

Dude, give the Marine a break! Wartime situations are not known for producing a clear mindset.

He just got caught up in the moment. That's what happens in battle.

Originally posted by sweatmonicaIdo
Dude, give the Marine a break! Wartime situations are not known for producing a clear mindset.

He just got caught up in the moment. That's what happens in battle.

yeah but i wannt to know if they where body searching or just patroling.

Mindset of the marines?

What about the mindset of the media?
Personally I am sick of hysterical media who shout off about the injustices without actually putting the matter into context.

I had read that the marines involved had been awake and fighting for over 24hours, the guy was in a shoot or be shot frame of mind
Injured fighters would lie on hand granades and explode them when marines came close, that was common knowledge.

slate.com...


In this unit's case, one early lesson in Fallujah was to avoid Iraqis altogether, dead or alive. Iraqis wearing National Guard uniforms had ambushed them, killing one of their own. Another Marine had been killed when an explosive detonated under an insurgent corpse. Several insurgents had continued desperate fights notwithstanding gruesome wounds. Others tried to exploit the civil-military moral gap, acting as soldiers at 500 meters and as civilians when the Marines closed in. The Iraqis in the mosque may have been immobile, but to the Marines, they posed a threat.

Further, the Marines were fighting in an enemy city with little uncontested territory. There were no "friendly lines" behind which they could rest. The Marine in question had been wounded already. He was no doubt exhausted by five days of continuous fighting by the time he risked his life and burst into the mosque on Saturday. A well-rested man would have faced a dilemma inside, filled with shades of gray. A sleep-deprived man weary from days of combat saw only a binary choice: shoot or don't shoot, life or death.

...
So context is crucial when judging actions under fire. The very job of a rifleman is to close with and destroy his enemy�in essence, to kill the bad guy before he can kill you. But what separates the Marines from the rabble is their professional discipline�what a Harvard political scientist called the "management of violence" in describing the U.S. military. And so, this incident stands out for two reasons.

First, it shows a breach of discipline, albeit under very stressful circumstances. But it also shows the extent to which the U.S. military will throw the book at one of its own. Already, the entire 1st Marine Division staff is involved with the case, and the top U.S. commander in Iraq said Tuesday that "[I]t's being investigated, and justice will be done."

Thanks for clarifying that Netchicken,

Regardless of the direction of their civilian leadership, the United States military are on the whole disciplined, professional warriors and the Marines even more so.

This guy had a job to do and he did that job the best way he knew how under the circumstances.

I'll criticise him only when I've walked a mile in his shoes.

NSA

Amen.

Just a point on killing the guy while the camera was on. Anyone think if the insurgent had been about to press the tit or pull the pin he was gonna wait until the camera was off? That was rhetorical by the way.

The answer is no.

In a potential life or death decision the camera's presence never will and never should affect the decision to act. I'd rather send the insurgent home in a box than come home to my family in one.

Sad, but true.

Originally posted by no such agency
...or was he a sad product of the Playstation Generation who thought he was playing Ghost Recon?

This Marine was shot in the face the day before and has seen his buddies die in combat, so I would say that it is doubtful that he thought he was playing a video game without real consequences. No one knows war like the grunts.

And I will put this out there as a matter of fact. No one and I do mean no one knows what he would do in any given hypothetical situation. One can only surmise. Very few here have been in this Marines situation, so most have no idea what it is like or what they would do.

It appeared pretty casual to me. Almost comical. The tone of the Marine, "He's f***kin faking he's dead!" as if "can you believe this??". And then came the BANG followed by "He's dead now...". Almost Bruce Willis in it's Hollywoodness.

That doesnt come across as being in a shot or be shot mindset, or whatever. I'm just calling it how I saw it on the vid. This may sound harsh, but if you cant handle that line of work, getting shot, getting shot at, the dangers that are present in the situations, you probably shouldnt be there.

If you're shot in the face, are you capable of functioning on a battlefield? Or are we talking about being grazed by a bullet here? "Shot in the face" sounds like it might be generalising. If this guy was "shot in the face" in the true sense, he would be on a bed. The other thing that is being thrown around is that he saw his buddies die, well...guess what? Yeah...

[edit on 21-11-2004 by cargo]

Wow, all this armchair Generaling, not just here on ATS but eleswhere too.

1) We did not see what led up to the shooting. Did they just mosey into the mosque or what...

2) Bodies had been booby trapped previously. Why take chances. Its a war zone. Would we all feel better sitting at home nice and cozy and safe if the marine had dies cause hte insurgent was wired?

3) WE WERE NOT THERE! as a previous poster put it: Till we walked a few miles in his shoes, who are we to judge his actions.

What's your combat record, cargo?

I lead a battalion to victory in the GI Joe vs Machine Men lawn wars of 1982.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
What's your combat record, cargo?

Dont even bother Grady

They are safe at home and have all the answers, I have had one tell me that we should not shoot at all unless it was in self deffense. In other words they have to shot first in EVERY engagement.

How to you argue with people like that?

They have never seen buddies blown into chunks, never had to kill, but they have all the answers and know exactly what should be done, all from watching a 20 second film clip.

If I thought the man was a threat I would have shot him myself

[edit on 21-11-2004 by Amuk]

Cargo. One of the things repeated here again and again I cant judge I was not in that situation. All of a sudden, you do..not showing much understanding of switching from less stressed to OTFT stressed are you? Its like a light switch. You switch to go with the circumstances of the momement. Nobody can afford to stay tensed 100% of the time.

Remember the saying "war is 95% sheer boredom and 5% sheer terror"?

You make getting head grazed by a bullet sound like a knee scrape boo boo. Have you been shot like that? I havent but came close in a live fire exercise. We were moving forward and rounds started to accidently woodpecker the tree I was under, close enough that I got sawdust in my eyes. I nearly s**t myself and was shaking for a good ten minutes after the fact. I went from being aware of the danger to frikkin scared.

Our unit buried a soldier who had served with us a few months before who got hit by five rounds in a similar incident with his regular unit.

There are wounds you survive wounds you fight through with and wound you die from. In recent years the intensity of fighting for western troops has meant you go home and get leave. The new situation means you don't if its not serious enough....you dont get off the battlefield at one level, out of the country on another and back to the states or wherever at another.

The difference between some of us who have or have not been in that situation is we are not prepared to judge. What gives you that right?