What recovery? U.S. retail stores now in grim death spiral- Sears and J.C. Penny's

reply to post by 727Sky


I can understand Sears having trouble. The only steady business they get is for their tools. Now that they no longer make Craftsman tools in America, they're losing sales in that area too, (Greed). When they acquired K-Mart, I thought that was a stupid investment considering they were already losing sales to Walmart and some stores were closing.

JCPenney is also losing sales and repeat business to Macy's. I wouldn't be surprised if Bon Ton is having the same financial problems. Their store is always dead whenever I'm there.

Overall, I think all the retail department stores are being affected by online shopping. Most men and some women don't like facing the hassle of shopping and facing the crowds. Instead of driving around town wasting gas to find the best price for an item, it's a heck of a lot easier to compare online prices on the internet before making a purchase. Some prices are even cheaper with shipping costs. I don't know about everybody else, but I do probably 80% of my Christmas shopping online. If online retailers can figure out how to eliminate or drastically reduce their shipping costs, I think it will end up being the nail in the coffin for most retail stores.

webedoomed
reply to post by schuyler

 

So you used to walk downtown to get all your goodies, then it was around a mall, now it's to the other side of your bed to get on your laptop.

What's next?

Sounds like google-glass-like tech and beyond. No need to do anything but think and choose from the display thrown in your field of view ( or perhaps mind's eye )

Is that progress?

I used to think so. Now I see people idealizing objects instead of subjects, and that's a trend I'm not sure we really wanna follow through to the Nth degree.

What's the difference between going downtown to buy objects or going to your laptop to buy objects? They're still "idealized objects" and always have been. The only thing that has changed is the method to procure them. You used to buy a Craftsman tool downtown. Then you bought it at the mall. Then you bought it online. It's still the exact same Craftsman tool.

Further, is it "better" to get in your car, drive to the mall, buy your object, and drive back, thus utilizing precious natural resources, polluting the environment, and spending an ungodly amount of money on "idealized objects" such as automobiles and all that it takes to run them, or is it better to spend less than a penny to do the same thing online and have it delivered in a relatively efficient manner?

And what about the retail environment in the first place? How many tens of millions of dollars does it cost to build a mall, stock a mall with all those "desirable objects," deal with inventory, square miles of asphalt parking spaces, put up all the bright shiny lights for attractive display of those "desirable objects" and use up all that land by destroying the farms that were originally there?

It seems to me that the online environment is a lot more environmentally friendly, a lot less time-consuming, a whole lot cheaper, and much more efficient than traveling to the mall for the same thing. So, yes. That's progress.

So bottom line is I don't think you understand your own criticism. It makes no sense.

I think the recovery is like the ACA... There *IS* recovery, in my opinion, but it's wildly unequal and not intended to be felt and enjoyed by everyone.

Wall Street has yet to have any real hardship at all, going back to 2007. What they failed on, Uncle Sugar paid them plenty to feel better about. Most was paid back...not all..and perhaps not all ever will be. Whatever the case there, if my personal finances are on the brink of total collapse, the Government will usually find that moment to add to the headache. There sure isn't some bailout for the Wrabbit Hole. Nope..Just bare shelves and hungry little bunnies. Oh, 'be too big to fail tho'? We know how that ends... You get bailouts and recovery by 100% artificial means and subsidy. Market forces still don't seem to think much of American cars, as just one example.

Like the ACA....some people ARE seeing good things and ARE getting benefit. Like the ACA, even those people are seeing benefit which has to be taken relative to the overall fall that it came out of. Are they better compared to 2006? Not likely, though some may be. Are they better than 2011 or 2012? Well...I hope so.. We didn't have much further to fall and MOST are still on the downslope and going down, in my opinion.

Recovery..like so much else...is only recovery if you're highly selective about example and context. I.E....It's a politically defined recovery, not a true one.

Sears has been in trouble for years.
Most people are shopping online now. Those figures have shot up dramatically, while in store shopping has dropped. Soon there won't be a need for stores.

A lot of posters are talking about these stores not mailing out coupons. I have to agree with that. My wife is a shopaholic. Her idea of relaxing and enjoying a day out is shopping at Macy's. There isn't a week that goes by that I find Macy coupons in our mailbox. Open my wife's purse and it's littered with them, lol.

I think with the competition of online stores, retail stores have to come-up with ways to get shoppers into their stores. They have to start offering coupons like some stores do, and reduce their profit margins to stay competitive with online retailers.

reply to post by 727Sky


Brick and mortar stores are going the way of the dodo.
Sears started out as mail order perhaps they should go back to the same.

bellagirl
don't you find it funny that every western country has seen manufacturing closed and moved to third world countries to save costs. yes...profits for big business has grown but unemployment has increased and therefor sales drop. why did they not see this happening ??? it doesn't take brains to figure out that you need those workers earning $20 an hour in wages to buy your goods. you can send the jobs to india etc and only pay someone $3 an hour for the same job but your worker earning $20 an hour has now lost his job and is earning $0 and hour and cant afford to buy jack sh*t.

I don't know if anyone else saw this, but 2 weeks ago I saw workers in some third world country protesting over low wages. what did big business think, the workers wouldn't wake up and want a bigger slice of the pie???

My father saw it many years ago. However, if only ONE competitor in an industry does it, the rest have to scramble after, for these things follow their own logic, and the reality of make-it-and-pay-the-help-well-so-they-can-buy-it becomes irrelevant. Only the next quarterly report matters in the minds of MBA's.

When I was a kid, my family shopped in North Kansas City, and it had (at that time) a decent shopping area. In the early 1960's, the Antioch Shopping Center opened a few miles north, and we shopped there for years. In the early 1970's, the Metro North Shopping Center opened a few miles northwest, and the Antioch mall went into a long decline. Then, it was Boardwalk Square west of that, and Zona Rosa even further west, and Metro North is like a ghost town. The Antioch mall was recently torn down, except for Sears, and there is talk of the same fate for Metro North. I hope so - Metro North ruined my hometown...

While all that was going on, I learned to scrounge. I worked in the non-profit world most of my working life, and my money simply had to go further. Before I knew better, I bought my first telephone for $50, and nowadays, I buy them for less than ten bucks at a thrift store. The same rule applies to most of what I buy. Most of my "stuff" was bought at thrifts, garage/estate sales, pawn shops, or "that auction site." I even found my wife (best wife I ever had, and my very best garage sale score) at a garage sale. I do very little retail buying, but am grateful for the fools that do...it all arrives at a garage sale near me.

schuyler

What's the difference between going downtown to buy objects or going to your laptop to buy objects? They're still "idealized objects" and always have been. The only thing that has changed is the method to procure them. You used to buy a Craftsman tool downtown. Then you bought it at the mall. Then you bought it online. It's still the exact same Craftsman tool.

You're smarter than this. I'm going to leave it up to you to fill in the gaps. Think.

Further, is it "better" to get in your car, drive to the mall, buy your object, and drive back, thus utilizing precious natural resources, polluting the environment, and spending an ungodly amount of money on "idealized objects" such as automobiles and all that it takes to run them, or is it better to spend less than a penny to do the same thing online and have it delivered in a relatively efficient manner?

Do you realize how much resources go into keeping the infrastructure of the internet afloat, and all that bandwidth open? Think.

And what about the retail environment in the first place? How many tens of millions of dollars does it cost to build a mall, stock a mall with all those "desirable objects," deal with inventory, square miles of asphalt parking spaces, put up all the bright shiny lights for attractive display of those "desirable objects" and use up all that land by destroying the farms that were originally there?

I'll give you this one in it's entirety. Good points.

It seems to me that the online environment is a lot more environmentally friendly, a lot less time-consuming, a whole lot cheaper, and much more efficient than traveling to the mall for the same thing. So, yes. That's progress.

So bottom line is I don't think you understand your own criticism. It makes no sense

That's not it. You're choosing to sidestep my points and shape my "criticism" into your own. Those aren't my points.

You choose not to mention a subject even one time. I wonder why? Is it that what I was getting at truly flew over your head or perhaps you just don't have an adequate reply so choose to attack a straw man?

webedoomed

schuyler

What's the difference between going downtown to buy objects or going to your laptop to buy objects? They're still "idealized objects" and always have been. The only thing that has changed is the method to procure them. You used to buy a Craftsman tool downtown. Then you bought it at the mall. Then you bought it online. It's still the exact same Craftsman tool.

You're smarter than this. I'm going to leave it up to you to fill in the gaps. Think.

Further, is it "better" to get in your car, drive to the mall, buy your object, and drive back, thus utilizing precious natural resources, polluting the environment, and spending an ungodly amount of money on "idealized objects" such as automobiles and all that it takes to run them, or is it better to spend less than a penny to do the same thing online and have it delivered in a relatively efficient manner?

Do you realize how much resources go into keeping the infrastructure of the internet afloat, and all that bandwidth open? Think.

And what about the retail environment in the first place? How many tens of millions of dollars does it cost to build a mall, stock a mall with all those "desirable objects," deal with inventory, square miles of asphalt parking spaces, put up all the bright shiny lights for attractive display of those "desirable objects" and use up all that land by destroying the farms that were originally there?

I'll give you this one in it's entirety. Good points.

It seems to me that the online environment is a lot more environmentally friendly, a lot less time-consuming, a whole lot cheaper, and much more efficient than traveling to the mall for the same thing. So, yes. That's progress.

So bottom line is I don't think you understand your own criticism. It makes no sense

That's not it. You're choosing to sidestep my points and shape my "criticism" into your own. Those aren't my points.

You choose not to mention a subject even one time. I wonder why? Is it that what I was getting at truly flew over your head

, or perhaps you just don't have an adequate reply so choose to attack a straw man?

Why are you being so condescending? Do you really feel that superior? I see no evidence why you should be. Your whole argument is a straw man compared to my original post, to which you are reacting. You've turned my general post which mentioned no one into something personal. Why is that?

You seem to have some sort of problem with people, particularly me, buying stuff in some sort of way you approve of, and not by some method you don't approve of, and making these different ways of buying the EXACT same thing some how qualitatively different. I am at a loss to understand your argument, and telling me to "think" is not answering my objections to what you have stated, which I consider completely trivial, including answering some sort of point you think to be overwhelmingly important which I passed by as inconsequential. But you have not articulated your argument very well. It seems nonsensical to me. Telling me to "think" is sidestepping the issue. You don't have a counter-argument, otherwise you would have made it rather than stoop to insult.

My basic contention is that buying a product online is VASTLY cheaper, more environmentally friendly, and more efficient than trudging to a physical store, be it downtown or the mall, to do exactly the same thing for more money. And, yes, as a matter of fact, I DO know how much technology infrastructure costs because I was in the business of supporting such structure for my entire career in IT. And I can tell you that there is no comparison whatsoever between the cost of building and supplying the infrastructure of retail compared to buying online.

I particularly reject and resent the idea that people are somehow tricked into buying some shiny object online that they could somehow resist in person. That isn't even part of the issue. You seem to feel buying online is "not progress," so building a mall that wrecks the downtown core is? I don't think so. Malls did their carnage years ago. Now it's their turn.

Fact: Compared to online, retail is inefficient. THAT is why retail is failing. There is no good reason to buy a book at the local B. Dalton-bookseller (OH! I'm sorry! They failed!) for retail when I can buy the exact same book from Amazon at 40% off retail and have it delivered to my door with free shipping. These retail stores are simply middlemen who do not add value to the product. There may be reasons of nostalgia or social reasons to do so, but as an exercise in basic economics, it makes no sense whatsoever. In fact, it's stupid.

That's not to say that certain retail niches are not doing well and will continue to do well. Groceries and fresh vegetables come to mind. Products that someone needs a lot of hand-holding to figure out what to buy is another. But they are going to pay for that extra attention they need.

Retail is dying for a reason. Malls and chains have already picked off the locally-owned Mom & Pops and sucked billions out of the local economies. The big giants of retail, being most inefficient and bloated, will go first, followed by any other retail that simply serves to resell products. This is not just my contention. It's happening all around you as we speak. And it's not because people "don't have money." It's because they are spending it differently and more wisely.

Sears closing flagship Chicago store as it eyes more online
JC Penny closing 33 store, laying off 2,000
60% of retail will involve the web by 2017
Bricks & Mortar vs Online-the battle is over
Amazon even has better customer service vs retail
Online sales on the way up

onequestion
reply to post by 727Sky

 

There is no recovery.

Look around you whats changing, if everything looks the same as it did a few years ago then guess what, IT IS!!

Nothings changing.

What are unemployed people going to do to survive? 100 million plus... That's 100 million people who can no longer afford the goods and services your EMPLOYER provides. That's everyone's job on the line if things don't get fixed!

schuyler

Why are you being so condescending?

You need to reread your reply to me. You were the one who was condescending to me.

As for the rest, you're not getting it in the least. We're not even in the same chapter. I'm not trying to force anyone to do anything, you're continuing to make assumptions and put words in my mouth. I'll leave it for the more up to date members who can make the connections to reply if they feel like.

I was focusing on the general trend this technology brings to enable us to be less socially aware of our local environments, and more emotionally disconnected. That was just the beginning of where I was going with the thought process.

Look at how many people are diagnosed "autistic" as the years pass. Look at the terms popping up like "online ____ addiction".. Are you aware that people are showing the same brain activity as when they're in love with another individual, when they look at their smart phones?

I'm just saying we may be losing our way, our humanity, through some of this tech if we don't check our selves. Where does that leave us? Tie in the notion that nearly half jobs will be automated by what was it? 2036?

Think of a mindset that focuses on the objective, our rulers focus on the bottom line, and people focus on their objects more than subjects of previous generations.

Do you not think that may lead to a potentially dangerous situation for those who are potentially being pushed out of the jobforce? We're going to need to make decisions about the social contract.

I'm seeing trends interplay that seem to point towards a need to address how we want to move forward with a lot of emerging tech.

My focus wasn't on mere increased efficiency, though I love to think along these lines. I'm saying, we may focus on the objective at the expense of the subjective. It may not be to our overall benefit as things continue to play out

Well primarily, its the shift from store based point-of-sale to internet sales. Amazon, among others, is replacing K-Mart, Sears, etc. I bet the Sears Hardware only stores remain strong as people like to see tools up close and they don't like to wait as they are often needed immediately to fix something quickly.

So the losses to traditional P-O-S retail sites are just shifted, tothe growing cyber economy. Other winners are UPS, Fedex , etc delivering those internet purchases. Though I agree there is a lot of government propaganda trying to make the economy look better than it is. I work for a company that provide services to state and local government and they are broke at all levels while the Feds just print money which can't last- D-Day is coming sooner than later for the dollar.

reply to post by bellagirl


Yep!

That's why FORD worked so well.
In the beginning back in the day, he knew if he paid his workers well, they'd buy his cars and he'd get the money back.

The internet is the new mall.

example, I walked into Dick Smiths yesterday to buy a HDMI Cable for the office.
The cheapest HDMI Cable Dick Smiths sells is $39
I can buy it online for $4.99

I said to the cashier if he was aware how much they were ripping people off with this $39 HDMI Cable. he simply said that the packaging boost the price.

Sorry retail, I am not paying $34 for packaging so I can have a $5 cable.

reply to post by Feltrick


JCPenney tried some kind of weird "reinvention" where they had three tiers of sale. Some things were on sale for six months and some things for a few weeks and some things for a weekend, and it got confusing and stupid. I think they also lost touch with their customer base.

They're in the midst of trying to get past that experiment with reinvention and reorient, but in this economy, it may to too late. They still have a decent number of people shopping there in our area. I shop there on occasion when I need work clothes (office wear), but they're too pricey for what you get for the most part.

reply to post by retsdeeps1


That only explains so much. You can't do much clothing shopping online. I know I don't like to buy clothes online when I can't actually see it, touch it and try it on first particularly for office work.

The "recovery" is a fiction, has been a "fiction" since it "began" during Mr. Obama's reelection campaign. Or before...

Anyway...

I work at the bottom end of the economic ladder. I've never seen so many people on assistance.

Recovery? Someone forgot to tell us about it, those of us who live and work at the bottom end of the ladder...

But hey, so long as political hacks are happy? Who are we to complain?

reply to post by seagull


No, it's not about them being happy. It's about them creating the fiction that even though you and everyone you know are not happy, they keep telling the Big Lie that things are great, so you must be the anomaly, even though everything tells you it's not true.

During all of the last presidency before the crash, they told the other Big Lie ... that the economy was horrible like it actually is now. Now, we can argue about how sustainable that health was, but the fact was that we had about 5 to 6% unemployment in reality. You heard call after call to radio shows where people would say the economy was horrible and get asked if they were having trouble or if anyone they knew was having trouble, they would say, "Well, no, we're all doing great, but they keep saying it's awful so people must be hurting."

This is the opposite lie. They're telling you it's great as a CYA. They're hoping to make people say the opposite thing. "Well, no, all our lives suck, but they keep saying it's great, so everyone else must be doing awesome, right?"

2014 Retail Stores Closing, Going Out of Business, Filing Bankruptcy.

What follows is a complete roundup of U.S. retail chains that are closing underperforming stores, downsizing, filing bankruptcy, or going out of business in the 2014 calendar year. Information for this 2014 Store Closing List was obtained from reports made available to the general public through news reports, corporate documents, and company press releases.

This is a list that was updated 1/21/14.

http:/ /retailindustry.about.com/od/USRetailStoreClosingInfoFAQs/fl/All-2014-Store-Closings-US-Retail-Industry-Chains-to-Close-Stores_2.htm

reply to post by ketsuko


What you're saying is true enough. Bread and circus's, if you will... Or, tell the lie often enough, it'll become the truth... Or something like that...

All I can do is go by what my eye's/ear's tell me. I see the food stamp cards being used, by people who used to use cash/checks... I hear people wondering aloud, how they're going to make this months pay go as far as it needs to go, without help.

Maybe, possibly, it's a local aberration...though I doubt it. When one of the store managers, who makes just about a third more than I do, has to go on assistance to feed her kid, something's not right... In fact, I'd daresay something is very, very wrong. You should be able to live on 55 grand a year. Not like a king maybe, but certainly comfortably.

So, something is obviously not right. The decline of business's that are literally a century old, or older, is a sure sign of that...

reply to post by ketsuko


And people wonder why these stores are shutting their doors? It's not due to the economy or lack of recovery, it's due to their own mismanagement. Not sure how many people buy clothes (other than tshirts) online but I don't think the internet/Amazon is hurting their business. I think it's just poor business practices and mistakes made by management.

Unfortunately, the execs that made those decisions will be nicely rewarded when the companies go under, the employees though will just be let go. Pretty crappy situation for them, they didn't make the bad decisions that caused the companies to lose business, but they'll pay for those decisions with their jobs. Ah, Capitalism!