76-Zentner the Nazi Atomic bomb found at Espelkamp in 1945

reply to post by AlphaHawk


Ok i will bite...Try dropping the hype and read...... weapons of mass DESTRUCTION

Why do you insist on calling chemicals weapons "weapons of mass destruction" when they are nothing of the sort? Historical evidence suggests that chemical weapons are actually not very good at killing people, and very rarely, if ever, cause "mass destruction". As the American terrorism expert David C Rapoport said a few years ago, chemical and biological weapons would 'be better referred to as "weapons of minimum destruction", since they're just not very good at destroying things or people in a war setting. '

But then you already knew the context to which i was referring... so...

en.wikipedia.org...

"In a separate study published in 2005,[45] a group of researchers assessed the effects reports and retractions in the media had on people’s memory regarding the search for WMD in Iraq during the 2003 Iraq War. The study focused on populations in two coalition countries (Australia and USA) and one opposed to the war (Germany). Results showed that US citizens generally did not correct initial misconceptions regarding WMD, even following disconfirmation; Australian and German citizens were more responsive to retractions. Dependence on the initial source of information led to a substantial minority of Americans exhibiting false memory that WMD were indeed discovered, while they were not. This led to three conclusions:

1. The repetition of tentative news stories, even if they are subsequently disconfirmed, can assist in the creation of false memories in a substantial proportion of people.
2. Once information is published, its subsequent correction does not alter people's beliefs unless they are suspicious about the motives underlying the events the news stories are about.
3. When people ignore corrections, they do so irrespective of how certain they are that the corrections occurred.

A poll conducted between June and September 2003 asked people whether they thought evidence of WMD had been discovered in Iraq since the war ended. They were also asked which media sources they relied upon. Those who obtained their news primarily from Fox News were three times as likely to believe that evidence of WMD had been discovered in Iraq than those who relied on PBS and NPR for their news, and one third more likely than those who primarily watched CBS."

Now back to the thread topics if you dont mind.

reply to post by R_Clark


I apologise but because I have been trying to tease out information third hand from a German friend many things are getting mixed up in translation. I have sought further details from Keith Sanders, whose father Corporal Sanders was an ammunition technician with Royal Army Ordnance Corps (RAOC) in Belgium seconded to No.1 Mobile Section RAOC with the British 11th Armoured Division. This division skirted Osnabruck with elements of 6th Para's Reg and a T-force detachment of 30AU commando, with the temporary designation "Royal Albert" Naval Detachment 1749 whose commander was Ian Flemming later to become author of James Bond stories. On 1st April 1945 30AU got a call to relocate to their HQ , codenamed HMS Odessy from Princess Gardens to Osnabruck just west of Espelkamp.

I concede that I personally got it wrong about the British 8th Army but that was my own sloppyness and misunderstanding being told by a German friend that Montgomery's army fought it's way into Espelkamp. It was not my source's error.

The objective was to linkup with an American thrust at Minden which is 20km east of Espelkamp and noted for a labrynth of WW2 tunnels stretching over 50 kilometres most of which are sealed since the war. In the same area Tabun nerve gas was also being loaded into V-1 and V-2 rockets for an offensive against allied forces.

Various newspapers reported the advance bypassing Osnabruck from 6-7 April 1945 although the reports themselves mention capture on 4th april explained by the delay getting reports to press. The interesting point is that whilst most German forces were reported fleeing west to surrender to Allied forces fanatical SS V-2 rocket troops defended Espelkamp fiercely.

CovertAgenda
reply to]post by AlphaHawk



"In a separate study published in 2005,[45] a group of researchers assessed the effects reports and retractions in the media had on people’s memory regarding the search for WMD in Iraq during the 2003 Iraq War...

Dependence on the initial source of information led to a substantial minority of Americans exhibiting false memory that WMD were indeed discovered, while they were not....

And to be clear yes I misunderstood a comment to me in broken English by a German friend and have gone back to his source Keith Sanders about his father who as a lowly Corporal RAOC won a bravery medal usually reserved for officers for his actions at Espelkamp. Corporal sanders died november 1952 after sharing his wartime exploits with his son in the UK summer of 1952.

Agit8dChop
If the Nazi's had a bomb, they'd have used it the instant they lost Stalingrad and the Russians started pushing them back.

According to a CSDIC report of a secretly tape recorded conversation between three German POWs about 76-Zentner the bomb was inscribed “To be fired only by order of the Fuhrer.” The order however never came. The prisoner expanded on this that the consequences were feared to be that mass formations of Allied bombers would then drop poison gas all over Germany. No doubt subtle channels of communication from the Allies reinforced Hitler's fears.

CovertAgenda
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Although some of your details are possibly a bit skewed, the main gist rings true. My father was in the 51stHD/153 IB/5/7th Gordon Highlanders, (other brothers in other divisions, and one uncle who was an interpreter during the Nuremberg trials) and i recall many stories along these lines, and many things that have been suppressed or sanitized since. Anything related to WW2 or Nazis, i only believe my relatives first or possible second hand accounts. In most instances think 180 degrees of what is presented as history.

We share a similar view. My father was on LCH-187 at Arromanches. He told me directly that some german POWs were brought to his ship from shore. His ship was a signals communication and intelligence vesel. These POWs were interrogated and then marched to the bows and gunned down by machine gun. A few years ago the story was corroborated online by the recollections of a fellow crewmember.

You just don't read this stuff in the sanatised official histories.

Dirk Finkemeier my German friend reminded me by email since this thread started that Douglas Deitrich a former archivist for the US Defense dept in San Francisco published a claim in an article about this 76-Zentner that it was flown out from an airfield near Espelkamp by Colonel Charles Lindbergh, who was a serving OSS Intelligence officer. That was a claim I had never heard before.

reply to post by sy.gunson


Sounds credible. Strange how governments like to rewrite history. The German bomb was obviously a prototype for testing. Now if Alien scientists had been found there, that would make for a movie script.

reply to post by CovertAgenda


You provided no supporting evidence for your opinion that chemical weapons aren't a type of weapon of mass destruction, probably because there is none.

Let me help..

In July 2006, the FBI created the Weapons of Mass Destruction Directorate, or WMDD, to build a cohesive and coordinated approach to incidents involving nuclear, radiological, biological, or chemical weapons—with an overriding focus on prevention.

www.fbi.gov...

Like nuclear weapons and biological weapons, chemical weapons are often classified as weapons of mass destruction.

www.britannica.com...

So, now back to the thread.

Hitler had told the famous Stuka pilot Hans Rudel that they were building a Special weapon that would end the War ,its interesting that Hitler evidently wanted to end the War,several time, with Hess going to England and other attempts were rejected by the Allies who insisted on unconditional surrender .basically the same as WW1 where Germany wanted the War to stop and leave everything left ''Status Quo'' but the U.S.A was dragged into it to destroy Germany

The Germans were a year or more behind us as the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Read it: The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes

Bonus: Dark Sun by Richard Rhodes.

You might learn something. That is that the premier talent in nuclear physics worked for the Manhattan Project. Germany only had a couple of really brilliant scientists to work with and none of the infrastructure required to produce a bomb.

sy.gunson
that it was flown out from an airfield near Espelkamp by Colonel Charles Lindbergh, who was a serving OSS Intelligence officer. That was a claim I had never heard before.

The reason you have not heard about it before is because like a lot of claims about German atomic weapons, it is just made up.

The names of all OSS personnel and documents of their OSS service, previously a closely guarded secret, were released by the US National Archives on August 14, 2008 - and Lindbergh is not on that list, so was not a member of the OSS.

wombatta
basically the same as WW1 where Germany wanted the War to stop and leave everything left ''Status Quo'' but the U.S.A was dragged into it to destroy Germany

So you think Germany should have been allowed to keep all the land they had occupied and countries they invaded.... and it was the nasty allies that would not stop the war!

Historical revisionism is very strong in this thread!

You know how I further know this report is bogus? Our people had to deliver the bomb using a specially modified B-29.

If the Germans were flying this supposed bomb around, and it weighed a comparable weight, the Germans would have also had a modified aircraft to do so. Where's the plane?

What a crock. Some people will believe anything.

reply to post by hellobruce


No i dont ,but we are only given a very basic view of the ''facts'' and of what went on behind the scenes in Politics .people believe all the BS they are told by the conniving currupt rulers ,there was alot more to it than meets the eye, and the media brain washing that goes on the same as with Kuwait,Iraq,and now the demonisation of Iran etc ,do you believe the official spiel on everything from the history books or do you think for yourself and make your own assessment ?

reply to post by sy.gunson


Hmmmm give us the original email of this post an allow a member who is fluent in German to translate it

reply to post by AlphaHawk


Regards comments about weapons of mass destruction etc, just up the road from Espelkamp was Leese where from memory V-2 rockest were being filled either with Tabun or Sarin nerve gas for a proposed offensive. The same design of A4 rocket known as the A4 D2 was also devised to accommodate a nuclear device. This was achieved by shifting one of the tanks forward into the usual space for an Amatol high explosive warhead, so that a different warhead could fit between the two tanks.

There is also an OSS report dated 9 November 1944 which refers to these same V-2 rockets being filled with a Liquid Air explosive with a destructive radius of "several kilometres" at Ottamuchow (nee Ottamachu) in Silesia south of Breslau.

starwarsisreal
reply to post by sy.gunson

 

Hmmmm give us the original email of this post an allow a member who is fluent in German to translate it

It was broken English and I have asked Dirk Finkemeier to try writing to me in German to iron out misunderstandings but he continues to write to me in English. I believe Dirk has published a number of articles about Espelkamp. Asa child he grew up 100 metres from the entrance to this underground factory in Espelkamp.

Dirk notified me in the past 24 hours that although British units were there local inhabitants are of the view that the US 44th Armored Div (Col Borris Pash - ALSOS) reached the town first. I don't know the factual basis for that assertion.

Restricted
You know how I further know this report is bogus? Our people had to deliver the bomb using a specially modified B-29.

If the Germans were flying this supposed bomb around, and it weighed a comparable weight, the Germans would have also had a modified aircraft to do so. Where's the plane?

Well let me see first there was the He-177B (three prototypes built in 1943)

above He-177B

... and subsequently developed into the He277B (seven pre-production prototypes completed by April 1944 by converting He-177 A6 R1/R2 prototypes):

....with a service ceiling of 49,500ft these He-277B were immune to Allied fighters above the UK.

Then there was the good ol' He-177 A5 which had a number of successful night raids over England in Operation Steinbock Jan-May1944 and this aircraft could carry 6,000kg. This He-177 A5 below was captured by the British:

Photo above of an early He-177 A0.

Nor should we forget that three He-177 A5 aircraft were specifically converted with enlarged bomb bays at Prague Rusyne airfield for export to Japan as Atomic bomber aircraft according to MAGIC decrypts of diplomatic signals between Berlin and Tokyo. These are photos of the Atomic bomber aircraft at Rusnye and the enlarged bomb bay:

[/ URL]


[URL=http://s257.photobucket.com/user/727Kiwi/media/He177v38.jpg.html]

It is hard to grasp why the Japanese would exchanged so many encyphered diplomatic signals about construction of special aircraft for delivery of atomic weapons and why the Germans would bother converting these aircraft without some real intention to use them

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hellobruce

sy.gunson
that it was flown out from an airfield near Espelkamp by Colonel Charles Lindbergh, who was a serving OSS Intelligence officer. That was a claim I had never heard before.

The reason you have not heard about it before is because like a lot of claims about German atomic weapons, it is just made up.

The names of all OSS personnel and documents of their OSS service, previously a closely guarded secret, were released by the US National Archives on August 14, 2008 - and Lindbergh is not on that list, so was not a member of the OSS.

This is a photo of US Army Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh serving on Biak Island with the 433rd Squadron during preparation for a USN Intelligence operation to assassinate Admiral Yammamoto. General Douglas McArthur was appoplectic to discover Lindbergh was in theatre without his knowledge and summoned him to Brisbane to expel him. Col. Lindbergh however had more powerful friends in Washington and McArthur was overruled.

Charles Lindbergh also flew ground attack missions in a Corsair with Marine Air Group 31 against Japanese strongholds in the Pacific in 1944. I find it odd that a US army officer participated in a US Naval intelligence operation in 1944 and later flew 50 combat missions with the US Marine Air Corps?

Which service in fact did he belong with?

Lindbergh had a secret history of espionage against the Germans from 1938. He is still an enigma in history and it is not entirely clear if his support for US isolationism was part of an act to fool the Nazis or not?

Around 1938, General Henry H. 'Hap' Arnold, the head of the Army Air Corps, was growing alarmed at the possibility of war in Europe and in the Pacific. To prepare the Air Corps, Arnold created a special committee chaired by Brigadier General W. G. Kilner; one of its members was Charles Lindbergh. After a tour of Luftwaffe bases, Lindbergh became convinced that Nazi Germany was far ahead of other European nations. In a 1939 report, the committee made a number of recommendations, including development of new long-range heavy bombers.

Being an aviator, Lindbergh traveled and vacationed often. After the ghastly affair of the kidnapping and murder of his son, Charles decided that he needed to get away from it all. That summer, he left for Germany. He traveled alone, telling his wife that he was on official business for the military. He traveled the country, visiting Nazi airfields, trying to find one that would let him "have a go at" their new, top secret bombers. The Germans were wary of the charming young Lindbergh at first, and reasonably so; look at how the man handled his own son, and bombers are worth much more than babies. But the ruggedly handsome American was able to work his magic, do a few favors, and score medium level security clearance at every airfield in Nazi Germany. And then, he got his hands on a Messerschmitt Bf 109.

Lindbergh toured German aviation facilities, where the commander of the Luftwaffe Hermann Göring convinced Lindbergh the Luftwaffe was far more powerful than it was. With the approval of Göring and Ernst Udet, Lindbergh was the first American permitted to examine the Luftwaffe's newest bomber, the Junkers Ju 88 and Germany's then front line fighter aircraft, the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Lindbergh received the unprecedented opportunity to pilot the Bf 109. Lindbergh said of the fighter that he knew "of no other pursuit plane which combines simplicity of construction with such excellent performance characteristics." Colonel Lindbergh inspected all the types of military aircraft Germany was to use in 1939 and 1940.

In early 1945 he was sent to Germany as party of Operation Lusty (= Luftwaffe Secret Technology). He was often associated during 1945 with General Patton and visited the Akaflieg factory at Prien to inspect German hi-tech aviation.

During World War II Dr. Alexander Lippisch proposed a ramjet propelled point defence fighter Lippisch P.13a. To investigate the low speed handling and aerodynamics of this delta-winged fighter, Lippisch arranged for Akaflieg Darmstadt to build a full-scale flying glider model, which emerged as the Darmstadt D-33 at Prien am Chiemsee.

From 1957 until his death in 1974, Lindbergh had an affair with a woman 24 years his junior, the German hat maker Brigitte Hesshaimer. They had three children together: Dyrk (born 1958), Astrid (born 1960), and David (born 1967). The two managed to keep the affair completely secret; even the children did not know the true identity of their father, whom they met sporadically when he came to visit. Astrid later read a magazine article about Lindbergh and found snapshots and more than a hundred letters written from him to her mother. She disclosed the affair in 2003, two years after both Brigitte Hesshaimer and Anne Morrow Lindbergh had died. DNA tests have confirmed the truth of these assertions.

Perhaps Bruce you should read Cole, Wayne S. Charles A. Lindbergh and the Battle Against American Intervention in World War II. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1974. ISBN 0-15-118168-3 ?

Whilst he may not appear in OSS documents he worked in several intelligence roles in both Pacific and European theatres. You are easily satisfied that all OSS documents have been disclosed, but I am not. You call me naive, but i see your complacent acceptance of conventional history as niave.

You forget that after the war it was never disclosed that the Allies were reading Enigma. For decades unconventional historians like myself kept insisting that the Allies must have been reading German signal traffic. Up until around 1980 people who insisted the Allies were reading German cyphers were all dismissed as lunatic conspiracy theorists, yet eventually the truth came out and the "lunatic conspiracy theorists" were proved correct.

Restricted
The Germans were a year or more behind us as the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Read it: The Making of the Atomic Bomb by Richard Rhodes

Bonus: Dark Sun by Richard Rhodes.

You might learn something. That is that the premier talent in nuclear physics worked for the Manhattan Project. Germany only had a couple of really brilliant scientists to work with and none of the infrastructure required to produce a bomb.

That's just your opinion...

I prefer the opinion of a man who would know. General Leslie Groves head of the Manhattan Project.

Referring to the German atomic scientists being held by the Americans, including those on British soil:

General Groves was convinced they were 'superior in all-round ability to the group which had started the New Mexico laboratory.

Quoted from "T-Force" p.195, by Sean Longden

That was also the view of the Manhattan Committee:

Excerpts from NARA file G371 report by Monsanto scientists Weinberg and Nordheim to A.H Compton of Manhattan project on state of Nazi nuclear science in WW2. Dated Nov 8 1945:

“Point III.
What was the state of German theory of the chain reaction?

Answer: (C) Generally we would say their approach was in no wise inferior to ours; in some respects it was superior.”

sy.gunson
This is a photo of US Army Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh

Actually he had resigned his commission in April 1941.... and was in the Pacific as a civilian engineering representative of United Aircraft.

serving on Biak Island with the 433rd Squadron during preparation for a USN Intelligence operation to assassinate Admiral Yammamoto.

You are just making this nonsense up, aren't you? Yamamoto was shot down on 18th April, 1943. Lindbergh never went to the Pacific until 1944....

General Douglas McArthur was appoplectic to discover Lindbergh was in theatre without his knowledge and summoned him to Brisbane to expel him.

Still wrong...

General George C. Kenney, the Commander of the 5th Air Force, heard from a War Correspondent that Colonel Charles Lindbergh was in New Guinea. Apparently no one in General Headquarters was aware of Lindbergh's presence in New Guinea. Kenney asked General Whitehead in New Guinea to get a message to Lindbergh to say that he would like to see him in his Brisbane office. Lindbergh arrived in Brisbane the following day and met with Kenney. He told Kenney he was in New Guinea to investigate new ideas for fighter aircraft design. He was particularly interested in the P-38 Lockheed Lightning. Lindbergh had an association with an aircraft company and he had obtained permission from the US Navy Department to visit the South Pacific Area (but not the South West Pacific area). As he did not have "legal permission" to be in the SWPA theatre of war, Kenney decided he should legitimise Lindbergh's presence in the SWPA by introducing him to General Douglas MacArthur. His appointment with MacArthur was at 5:15pm on Wednesday 12 July 1944. When MacArthur asked Lindbergh if there was anything he could do for him, Kenney butted in and indicated that he had an important job for Lindbergh. He advised that he wanted Lindbergh to get more operational radius from his P-38 Lightnings. If he could fly a little monoplane all the way from New York to Paris and have gas left over, he should be able to help his P-38 pilots in the 5th Air Force. MacArthur agreed that Lindbergh should help.

I find it odd that a US army officer participated in a US Naval intelligence operation in 1944

he did not.... as already explained.

Which service in fact did he belong with?

A civilian...