Army finally admits "Toxic Leadership" to blame for mass veteran suicides

For the first time in human history, more troops have died by taking their own lives after returning from war, the wars in the Middle East, than died on the battlefield. Currently, there are 22 U.S. veterans a day taking their own lives after having made it home from deployment, this, according to the latest numbers released by the Department of Veterans Affairs. However, these numbers only include soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen who were on active duty. National Guard and Reservist numbers are not included in this tally, and at the height of the wars, Guard and Reservist members made up the majority of troops deployed. So, if their numbers were counted in the tally, the suicide rate may be as much as 80% greater than what is being reported.

freepatriot.org...

The U.S. Army has now decided to fess up that some of their leadership within the ranks, as much as 20% of it, is “toxic,” as in abusive, selfish, narcissistic and demeaning toward their subordinates, and that this toxicity has resulted in suicides among the troops and veterans.

I bet the retention NCO's in the Army nowadays love the bad economy, I can already hear them telling the soldiers about to get out of the Army things like.....

"There are no jobs in the civilian sector, you might as well sign up for another 4 years."

"How are you going to support your family? Soldiering is all you've ever done."

"I guess I might as well get you some McDonalds applications."

Since leadership starts at the top down, I can see a very toxic example of leadership in the current POTUS. He has moved more senior leadership around (and straight up forced retirement on some) than any President I know of.

I can definately relate to this article, I took pride in what I had to do at the time when I served, but I saw so many people while I was in who had no business being around weapons or leading troops.

Interesting article nonetheless.

I think it has more to do with the leadership encouraging the indiscriminate killing of women, children, and non-combatants. When those things are done, it weighs very heavy on the conscience of those who have consciences.

Narcissistic culture makes for narcissistic leaders. Film at 11.

O.I.C....

So the NCO's are going to take the fall. The unit commanders and low level officers, if any, will be blamed.

Move along now...nothing to see here ... It really has absolutely nothing to do with sending them several times longer into combat than any veteran of Vietnam ever saw, and orders of magnitude more than any World War II vet ever saw...for 4-8 or more years of deployments in many cases. Naww... Irrelevant. Doesn't matter...no impact.

It's those selfish, piggish NCO's. Yeah.. they're at fault. The Sergeants. Everyone loves to hate a Sergeant right? Imagine a Master Sergeant. That must embody all that is wrong with military leadership today....eh? (rolls eyes)

Of course...it never even occurs to them...WHEN the suicides are happening, by and large. It's not while they are over THERE ..and singularly focused on the world the NCO does actually control to a large extent. It's happening after they come HOME and have time to think and consider it all..with how they can make peace with what they were required to do in service.

So, it would be really silly to imagine the Politicians who created and now continue to pursue the wars have any blame...and how insane to suggest Flag rank officers may have more blame to carry than a lowly Staff Sgt.

It's SO much easier to bash and whack the NCO's..so I suppose the hunts shall begin! DOWN with any Sgt who dare be harsh with their people.....after all, better they should die in battle as a rabble than be treated harshly for discipline and reality.

Commence the scapegoating, Uncle Sam! The suicide rate may even rise a bit.....among NCOs...but whos counting, huh?

My two carrots into the blender.

reply to post by jimmyx

you blame Obama for the suicides?

Not what I said.

Leadership is done by example from the top down. Take a good hard look at Obama's military policies and tell me he is a good leader.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

The U.S. Army has now decided to fess up that some of their leadership within the ranks, as much as 20% of it, is “toxic,” as in abusive, selfish, narcissistic and demeaning toward their subordinates, and that this toxicity has resulted in suicides among the troops and veterans.

Isn't being abusive, selfish, narcissistic and demeaning what they teach Drill Sergeants to do with new troops?
It starts the first day of basic training. It has destroyed the lives and minds of multiple thousands of otherwise healthy young men and women.

It is sickening, always has been; a lot of PTSD stems from basic training alone - a person's overall sensitivity can result in them being shattered, literally. And the Evangelical Christians have the audacity, the gall, the nerve to tell them, "Good Christians don't get PTSD."

Right-Wing Evangelicals Claim 'Good Christians' Can't Get PTSD

Conservative evangelicals have politicized psychology and made the church hostile to the mentally ill.

Ugh. Sorry to bring religion into your thread; but the treatment these returning troops get is beyond unconscionable.
I weep for the ruined lives of so many of our best and brightest.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


When you're the "Backbone of the Army" you're going to get none of the praise and all of the crap.

That being said, I have seen way, way too many enlisted guys get their stripes and become a completely different person, and most of the time not for the better. A little authority can inflate a persons head beyond belief.

When I think of "senior leadership" though, I don't think of NCO's, they are junior leadership. The officers are generally considered the senior leaders.

reply to post by wildtimes

Isn't being abusive, selfish, narcissistic and demeaning what they teach Drill Sergeants to do with new troops?

At first it is. You must tear down the new recruits and then build them back up how you want them to be. There is no other way to really train a soldier. The drill Seargeants always chill out after the first 3-4 weeks and aren't so hard on the recruits.

It is sickening, always has been; a lot of PTSD stems from basic training alone

For some people it can be, at least they generally get weeded out in basic before they send them off to a duty station.

Good to see you WT! I did'nt notice it was you at first with your new avatar.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

At first it is. You must tear down the new recruits and then build them back up how you want them to be. There is no other way to really train a soldier.

Yeah yeah, I'm aware of the 'mentality' behind it.

Not all of the damaged get 'weeded out', however. My husband was in the Army NG, an MP, and he was offered a spot in Ranger's school - he had finished Basic at age 17. SEVENTEEN. He gave his best, did his job, was not even deployed to a combat zone; but he knew that if he accepted Ranger's school, he would never be fit to have a wife and family - so he declined.

He still has marked PTSD, but got help from the mental health professionals, and is doing better - thanks to talk therapy, self-help efforts, and meds. If he hadn't accepted that help, I suspect he'd be dead by now.

Thankfully, he had enough insight and self-awareness and ability to think about his future and his life trajectory to make that choice. MOST seventeen-year-old youths do not.


(The new avatar is of the panda cub in Taiwan, Yuan Zai... isn't it adorable?? I'm not sure if they've sexed it or not yet.)

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

When I think of "senior leadership" though, I don't think of NCO's, they are junior leadership. The officers are generally considered the senior leaders.

I tend to agree and I'd go further to say bad NCOs come from bad training and bad selection, which originates with bad officers. That whole chain thing, eh? I have a strong feeling though, the hunt won't proceed too far into 'Officer Country' if it goes there at all, beyond specific cases they just can't otherwise ignore.

It sounds like a real good time for NCOs close to punching their ticket already to hit the doors.... An ill wind seems to be coming up here...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

It sounds like a real good time for NCOs close to punching their ticket already to hit the doors.... An ill wind seems to be coming up here...

In what way, wrabbit??

I agree, war in general is an "ill wind", but what do you envision happening?

Tusks
I think it has more to do with the leadership encouraging the indiscriminate killing of women, children, and non-combatants.

Fallujah comes to mind here. Yes, I agree those things do lie heavy on their conscience. Of course it's also possible these same soldiers see the hypocrisy of "bringing democracy" and the ever changing mission to fit some political purpose.

Seeing how the rights of the American citizens have been methodically stripped while they were overseas trying to serve their country only to find they were serving a corporate agenda. That point is further reinforced by all the military contractors who are better paid and don't take the risks soldiers have to.

Last is understanding that we were never there to win the war. Everything has been done to make it continue. The poppy fields grow larger each year and your buddies go home with no legs. You realize you were a tool, enticed by words like duty and honor only to end up fighting a war they never intended to win. There's nothing left but pride in camaraderie but once your home your buddies are strewn all over the country and you hear about them killing themselves.

It's a terrible cycle.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior


Sorry but how does 20% toxicity result in the suicide numbers we see today? This is BS! Its not 20% toxic leadership, its 100% toxic mind-fvck culture/system/basic training/multiple tours. Not to mention the guilt and the lack of services and respect when they get back home trying to fit back into a society that no longer needs or respects them. I'm guessing they'd like to blame the rape-culture on a different 20%?????

How disingenuous of the army! Its complete BS or they havent a clue, probably both.

reply to post by wildtimes

In what way, wrabbit??

I agree, war in general is an "ill wind", but what do you envision happening?

Well, I feel like we're now living a repeat of what I've read about before..since I was in diapers the last time this actually played out, the comparisons are my interpretation, but it seems fitting.

After the Vietnam War and before Saigon even fell, the military went into it's drawdown mode and with a vengeance as I understand it. Up or Out became more of ...Prove your worth or out. All done to the backdrop of a war lost in disgrace (or..politically exited under unfavorable conditions ..to be perfectly P.C. about it). It seemed almost arbitrary to look back now, for who was head chopped by the downsizers and who wasn't. What segments got the blame for rampant drug abuse and morale issues ..and who didn't.

Never, it seemed, did it occur to those most obviously involved with it, the military wasn't the problem. Where they'd just been, what they'd been ordered to do for 10 years straight and the toll that took on regular human beings ..was to blame.

What's different now? We've lost one war in similar disgrace and for precisely the same reasons...while we're in the process of losing the second one for, again, the same political and not military reasons. We've been in a state of sequestration mandated drawdown by brutal attrition, in addition to natural drawdown after a long war (x's 2)...

Bottom line? I think the NCOs who overstayed their welcome and didn't see the writing on the wall in the 70s to leave under their own terms ...either got unceremoniously cashiered and dumped into civilian life ..or, in a few cases, excelled and thrived. Most though? I'll bet in hindsight, they'd wished they'd have punched their cards by their choosing, not the Army's method of helping someone out.

Cancerwarrior
reply to post by jimmyx

 

you blame Obama for the suicides?

Not what I said.

Leadership is done by example from the top down. Take a good hard look at Obama's military policies and tell me he is a good leader.

Oh! So that is why when soldiers, sailors, and others serving get their ballots that they say "Don't vote for democrats, they'll cut your pay".
The people in direct contact are the MOST influential. And your statement is contradictory at the least and inflammatory at the most.
Perpetual war is the US way. Hate war? You are UNamerican.
Support the troops. No matter what.
No.
If they are not smart enough to realize the corruption and are bullying and killing people around the world for profit, then I don't feel sorry for every body bag. My freedom hasn't been a direct result of needless military action for profit.

I have something to say about this, my husband served the country as a Enlisted Marine for 22 years until he retired in 1998, even he say that the military of today after Bush took over and Rumsfeld changed everything and put it in the hands of the private military complex is not the same, the discipline is not there anymore, it is not the enlisted higher ranks to blame and neither the Officers but the government itself, is a trend in this nation this days to destroy the military and make it a private one and the agenda is in gear.

reply to post by six67seven

Sorry but how does 20% toxicity result in the suicide numbers we see today?

If you had bothered to read the article before posting, you would have seen that is only a part of the equation, but its a major part.

How disingenuous of the army! Its complete BS or they havent a clue, probably both.

It's absolutely both.

reply to post by Asktheanimals

Of course it's also possible these same soldiers see the hypocrisy of "bringing democracy" and the ever changing mission to fit some political purpose.

Absolutely.

You never hear or see soldiers speaking out against their superiors very much for one simple reason. They can't. You can be punished under UCMJ if you publicly voice your opinion against your unit, the mission or the Army in general.

Last is understanding that we were never there to win the war. Everything has been done to make it continue. The poppy fields grow larger each year and your buddies go home with no legs. You realize you were a tool, enticed by words like duty and honor only to end up fighting a war they never intended to win. There's nothing left but pride in camaraderie but once your home your buddies are strewn all over the country and you hear about them killing themselves.

After the Bin Laden raid, I heard so many people ask the question "Why are we still in Afghanistan"?

Energy, Rare Earth Elements and Poppies. Terrorism was nothing but a false pretense IMO.

Cancerwarrior
reply to post by six67seven

 

Sorry but how does 20% toxicity result in the suicide numbers we see today?

If you had bothered to read the article before posting, you would have seen that is only a part of the equation, but its a major part.

You mean the single additional paragraph?! Yeah, I missed a lot there, lol. Or you could have simply included the first sentence of the third paragraph you chose to quote in your OP. Something tells me you did that on purpose to have people focus on 20% leadership.

Here you go:

Thirdly, a major factor that has led to the suicide epidemic that the U.S. Army is finally admitting, is toxic leadership.