The Left: Advocates For Poverty

Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by Carseller4
Let's face it, Democrats rely on poor, so obviously they want the poor to remain that way. You night say "poor people vote Republican too", but not all poor people want to stay that way, and they look to the Republican party to help them out of their poverty. Democrat "poor" basically have given up and look to Democrats to sustain their meager existence. Then they want to blame "rich" people, because as everyone knows personnal responsibility is just not tolerated in the Democrat Party.

Example: John F'n Kerry... It wasn't my fault I lost.
Example: We didn't lose the election Bush stole it.

My god, you need to research on the poverty in our country since Mr. Bush is in power poverty leves has increased so go get the US census bureau, and get the facts.

It seems that republicans wants to make more people fall in the poverties leves after all.

The official poverty rate rose, from 12.1 percent in 2002 to 12.5 percent in 2003. The number in poverty increased also, by 1.3 million people, to 35.9 million in 2003. 2

In 2003, the average poverty threshold for a family of four was $18,810; for a family of three,$14,680.




♦ The poverty rates for people 18 to 64 and those 65 and older remained unchanged, but the poverty rate for children rose from 16.7 percent in 2002 to 17.6 percent in 2003.

Seem that making children be born and raised in poverty ensures control of the population in the future.

Sad that our childrens are the ones sufering with this problem.

More children = More Welfare...Thank you Democrats. If I'm making less than $30,000 a year guess what? I'm not having kids. But people will, because they know that they are going to get a check. This is the sad legacy that Democrats that held power for so many years have left us.

What do you want Bush to do? Raise the minimum wage and make unemployment go up?

If Republicans are "for the rich" wouldn't it make sense that Republicans would want more rich people?

Same for the Democrats, if they blame the rich for everything, they definately don't want you to become rich. They want you to stay poor so you will continue to vote for them.

Anyone can escape poverty, they just cant be lazy.......

Originally posted by jsobecky
If you accept a country that will not allow it's citizens to LEAVE as progressive, then I would like to hear your definition of repression.

All I was saying is that Castro is making the best with what he has. Cuba wouldn't be hardly as impoverished if it wasn't for US sanctions.

Also, I doubt the claim that Castro doesn't allow his citizens to leave. Any proof? It might well be true, I just haven't heard of it.

Originally posted by General Zapata

Originally posted by jsobecky
If you accept a country that will not allow it's citizens to LEAVE as progressive, then I would like to hear your definition of repression.

All I was saying is that Castro is making the best with what he has. Cuba wouldn't be hardly as impoverished if it wasn't for US sanctions.

Also, I doubt the claim that Castro doesn't allow his citizens to leave. Any proof? It might well be true, I just haven't heard of it.

I just thought I'd present with some proof regarding Cuba's denial of citizens leaving.

www.washingtonpost.com...

My Thanks,

-ADHDsux4me

Originally posted by Carseller4
More children = More Welfare...Thank you Democrats. If I'm making less than $30,000 a year guess what? I'm not having kids. But people will, because they know that they are going to get a check. This is the sad legacy that Democrats that held power for so many years have left us.

What do you want Bush to do? Raise the minimum wage and make unemployment go up?

If Republicans are "for the rich" wouldn't it make sense that Republicans would want more rich people?

Same for the Democrats, if they blame the rich for everything, they definately don't want you to become rich. They want you to stay poor so you will continue to vote for them.

Look, if you really want to know where those welfare checks go, get off your lazy hiney and go down to down to the welfare office. Start talking to those people forced to dive down until they own absolutely nothing. The ones who's men dumped them and got away with it because right wing judges sympathize with those poor pitiful working men and let them skate on child support. Go talk to people who try for months to find work, get the only jobs they can, ususally minimum wage and part time/temp. Ask them how much extra they get per kid. It ain't enough to buy food for another mouth.

I give up! You smug mean-spirited right wingers, and back-stabbing lefties. Like I said in my earlier post - When you've been through the system yourself, you get a true education on the BS crap you folk spout about lazy welfare moms and crack addicts living on your dime. It's a MFing LIE!! Why don't you deny a little ignorance like the ATS motto says, and really go ask people at the welfare office, or unemployment how they got where they are, and just how much luxury your tax money buys them.

As for losing money for not having kids, I am right there with you. Bush gave checks to all the breeders, and I got nothing for trying to keep the planet a little less crowded. It's not welfare moms taking your money. But it's obviously not in your conception of truth to go verify that. Otherwise you wouldn't be so attached to the stupid idea that poor people are stealing from you.

And don't think you're above ending up in the welfare line. Though from the self-satisfied tone of your financial attitude, you must think you're immune. Meaning you're either very lucky, very naive, or very rich. If it's the first two, hopefully you'll never know about being poor first hand. If it's the latter, I hope you do suffer being poor. Learn about welfare and how nice it is to get that free money from godfearin working people

Bad luck can happen to anyone, anytime. So wouldn't it be prudent to keep the safety nets in place, if even for your own comfort? What gives you the right to take food out of someone's mouth because you magically know they are a slacking crackhead and/or a spawning harlot? There but for the grace of (insert deity here) go any of us. I hope all you mean spirited folk get to experience poverty in all it's glory.

--Saerlaith

Originally posted by Saerlaith


Look, if you really want to know where those welfare checks go, get off your lazy hiney and go down to down to the welfare office. Start talking to those people forced to dive down until they own absolutely nothing. The ones who's men dumped them and got away with it because right wing judges sympathize with those poor pitiful working men and let them skate on child support. Go talk to people who try for months to find work, get the only jobs they can, ususally minimum wage and part time/temp. Ask them how much extra they get per kid. It ain't enough to buy food for another mouth.

I give up! You smug mean-spirited right wingers, and back-stabbing lefties. Like I said in my earlier post - When you've been through the system yourself, you get a true education on the BS crap you folk spout about lazy welfare moms and crack addicts living on your dime. It's a MFing LIE!! Why don't you deny a little ignorance like the ATS motto says, and really go ask people at the welfare office, or unemployment how they got where they are, and just how much luxury your tax money buys them.

As for losing money for not having kids, I am right there with you. Bush gave checks to all the breeders, and I got nothing for trying to keep the planet a little less crowded. It's not welfare moms taking your money. But it's obviously not in your conception of truth to go verify that. Otherwise you wouldn't be so attached to the stupid idea that poor people are stealing from you.

And don't think you're above ending up in the welfare line. Though from the self-satisfied tone of your financial attitude, you must think you're immune. Meaning you're either very lucky, very naive, or very rich. If it's the first two, hopefully you'll never know about being poor first hand. If it's the latter, I hope you do suffer being poor. Learn about welfare and how nice it is to get that free money from godfearin working people

Bad luck can happen to anyone, anytime. So wouldn't it be prudent to keep the safety nets in place, if even for your own comfort? What gives you the right to take food out of someone's mouth because you magically know they are a slacking crackhead and/or a spawning harlot? There but for the grace of (insert deity here) go any of us. I hope all you mean spirited folk get to experience poverty in all it's glory.

--Saerlaith

I hate poverty and welfare just as much as you. That is why I would never vote for a democrat. They want people living this way, it helps them politically.

What ever happened to friends and family or God forbid, the Church. Some people have bad situation, say like an unwanted pregnancy, but government should not not come in and reward this.

I live in Louisiana and have seen first hand how these "Welfare Pro's" live. They sucker the government to put themselves and as many children as they can on "disability", to get their "crazy check". That qualifies them for Section 8 housing, where the rent is like $40.00. They get food stamps, BTW never go shopping on the 1st and the 15th of the month, its a freaking zoo. These people are mostly single mothers, with a man on the side, that they never marry, as this would cut off their benefits. Their house, or apartment is filled with the best stuff "rent to own" can buy. No you won't see a 17" TV, it most likely is a "Big Screen". I know this 1st hand, because I did that type of work for a little while, picking up these peoples furniture because they were late on their payments. Yes, I do have horror stories of kids crying "Please don't take my bed where am I going to sleep tonight?" I do feel bad for the kids, but the system does not help them it hurts them, and I blame the Democrats for this.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by Carseller4]

Originally posted by Carseller4

I hate poverty and welfare just as much as you. That is why I would never vote for a democrat. They want people living this way, it helps them politically.

What ever happened to friends and family or God forbid, the Church. Some people have bad situation, say like an unwanted pregnancy, but government should not not come in and reward this.

I live in Louisiana and have seen first hand how these "Welfare Pro's" live. They sucker the government to put themselves and as many children as they can on "disability", to get their "crazy check". That qualifies them for Section 8 housing, where the rent is like $40.00. They get food stamps, BTW never go shopping on the 1st and the 15th of the month, its a freaking zoo. These people are mostly single mothers, with a man on the side, that they never marry, as this would cut off their benefits. Their house, or apartment is filled with the best stuff "rent to own" can buy. No you won't see a 17" TV, it most likely is a "Big Screen". I know this 1st hand, because I did that type of work for a little while, picking up these peoples furniture because they were late on their payments. Yes, I do have horror stories of kids crying "Please don't take my bed where am I going to sleep tonight?" I do feel bad for the kids, but the system does not help them it hurts them, and I blame the Democrats for this.

[edit on 21-11-2004 by Carseller4]

Poor folk must be different in Louisiana then. I grew up in one poor neighborhood and moved to another. Lived it. Not worked for the man doing repo. Lots of people make stupid money choices because they are told they are stupid and they don't have the skills needed to manage money. Education might help more than punishment. I still am not getting where democrats make poverty by putting safety nets in place. As for church, friends, etc. What if you're not a christian and your neighbors are as poor as you? Maybe if people were taught better personal skills (as in sex and relationship ed) and some bare bones money skills, more people could rise above the ghetto. But if too many people have good job skills, small families and self confidence, no one will be willing to take the Walmart jobs created by the corporate welfare handed out to rich people trying to get richer.

In the town I just moved from, the government gave Walmart a 2 million dollar set of tax breaks. In return Walmart promised lots of jobs. This area had a 12% unemployment rate at the time. Walmart moves in, hires people at minimum wage, temporary, part time, no bennies. The governement kicks people off unemployment to take these jobs which come nowhere near being enough to live on, let alone take care of a family. All these now poorer people have to shop at Walmart because it's all they can afford. Local businesses who used to pay good wages are forced to lower prices, lay people off, and eventually close. Now there are fewer jobs, fewer places to shop, less unemployment help, and more people fall into poverty. Yet the Walton family, owners of Walmart, get even richer. The poor town I just left is spiraling into utter depression. How do you fix that? What's best for people? Walmart jobs that eventually ruin the local economy? Or ponying up a little more gubmint dough to pay for forest replanting jobs, or retraining for an industry that is actually hiring?

Lets see - family planning, equal pay for women, living wage jobs, strong unions, tax breaks for few or no kids, some kind of health care system, 100% enforcement of child support (either male or female), subsidized daycare for the first couple of kids, well-funded retraining for displaced workers, a real unemployment/disability/welfare system (where case workers actually work with the recipients to keep it honest) -

Now that would go a long way to reducing poverty and what you people consider freeloaders. I don't even have kids, and I can see my way to helping poor folk with a kid or two if they fall on hard times. I wonder if any candidate, from any party will propose real help for people.

--Saerlaith

Saerlaith

I know poverty first-hand. It was a member of my family until I left home at age 17. But I won't bore you with details. Let's just say that we were happy as a family.

I don't disagree with having a safety net for those in our society who fall upon hard times. But I do disagree with those who abuse the system. Let me give you an example: You are on welfare, you spend $45/week on cigarettes while your children go to school hungry because they can't afford the $1.50/day for the school food program. Or, maybe you spend a six-pack a day, or both. Is that fair to your kids? Should you consider cutting back on your vices?

Some people here say no, you shouldn't cut back. But they will blame the government for cutting back on social programs, and say that your vices are none of their business.

But I'd like your opinion on this.

And your comment about right-wing judges, well let me advise you: don't get divorced in Massachusetts. How does $622/WEEK sound for child support for two healthy kids sound? Plus paying their health insurance, etc., etc. And this for someone who wasn't even making six figures.

I disagree with Section 8 and stuff, I think that's ridiculous.

But:

I feel that medical care and education should be free for everybody. In many devloped countries they are. I think this is true justice for all.
The rest depends on the individual. No work, no projection TV.

People after reading the last post I have to said that I agree with most of what you have post. All of you have a point and a very valid one.

Its many issues in our country and many promises made by political candidates but for some reason we have no seen anything but more dependency and worsening to the problem in our nation with the low income families.

And the sad thing is that I don't see anything new or anything to fix it any time and any where in the future.

Aelita

I think that education should be free, and health insurance affordable to everyone. I also think that our youth should pay society back for providing free college educations by performing some sort of community service.

I mentioned Bush's comments regarding health care earlier. Maybe it was in this same thread, I forget. But basically, during the debates, he said that he wants to make it possible for small companies to band together and get the same group rates and benefits that larger companies have. This sounds like a common-sense, no-brainer idea to me. Why it isn't happening today, I have no idea.

Unfortuntely job outsourcing is causing more poverty in this country... not everyone is capable of the 4 year degree and white collar professional work life.

The simple awnser to the problems with social systems is that better organization is needed and less money should be spent on acts of foreign aggression (Iraq) and more on ways to organize the systems to make them efficient. Your average worker could probably figure out how to fix the systems. It seems to me the politicans are just total idiots... just because your rich doesen't mean your of the smartest class of people.

A good portion of tax money spent on social systems apparently never makes it to the social systems.. thats why taxes rise. If you misplace funds you have to end up taxing higher to replace them. It has little to do with "laziness" or peoples "lack of effort". The republicans like to pretend that all people utilizing social system are lazy or not willing to work. The great majority are not, they have a legit need to be on the system. Most people if they had the ability would do there best, but it doesen't always work in the real world.

So maybe a few people are abusing the system.. why should we scrap the entire system altogether? Why not scrap the entire democratic system because the majority of citizens don't show up at the polls?

The current religious nutcase in office has no interest in the people as a whole.. only the "Elite" he seems to care about and serves to the death for... often using other people to die for him and the elitists.

The reality is that some people have more ability than others... but those with less should not have to suffer.. they won't be as rich as those with the ability... but they won't be dirt poor. This tends to be the idea with a socialist system... I believe that all of man should have daily bread/water.



[edit on 21-11-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by RedOctober90
Unfortuntely job outsourcing is causing more poverty in this country... not everyone is capable of the 4 year degree and white collar professional work life.

The world neds plumbers and electricians, too. Good, solid jobs that don't require a full 4 year degree.

The republicans like to pretend that all people utilizing social system are lazy or not willing to work. The great majority are not, they have a legit need to be on the system. Most people if they had the ability would do there best, but it doesen't always work in the real world.

Unfair and untrue to paint the republicans with this broad brush. Show me a democrat dock worker going out the door to work at 5AM while his slacker neighbor sleeps in till noontime, and I'll show you resentment.

The current religious nutcase in office has no interest in the people as a whole.. only the "Elite" he seems to care about and serves to the death for... often using other people to die for him and the elitists.

This is the first time I've heard of Bush being elite. This I thought was the domain of the liberals who wondered how 59 million plus people could be so dumb.

The reality is that some people have more ability than others... ... I believe that all of man should have daily bread/water.

So do I.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Saerlaith

I know poverty first-hand. It was a member of my family until I left home at age 17. But I won't bore you with details. Let's just say that we were happy as a family.

I don't disagree with having a safety net for those in our society who fall upon hard times. But I do disagree with those who abuse the system. Let me give you an example: You are on welfare, you spend $45/week on cigarettes while your children go to school hungry because they can't afford the $1.50/day for the school food program. Or, maybe you spend a six-pack a day, or both. Is that fair to your kids? Should you consider cutting back on your vices?

Some people here say no, you shouldn't cut back. But they will blame the government for cutting back on social programs, and say that your vices are none of their business.

But I'd like your opinion on this.

And your comment about right-wing judges, well let me advise you: don't get divorced in Massachusetts. How does $622/WEEK sound for child support for two healthy kids sound? Plus paying their health insurance, etc., etc. And this for someone who wasn't even making six figures.

If they are on welfare, well, there's the free lunch program for them..... We're not on welfare, we make far too much money for it, and well, we are just barely over their guideline....so your what-if doesn't work out.

as far as the child support bit, well, I know a guy who was paying close to that, but then, he was paying for back child support also. The killer was, he didn't owe any back child support really and well, by the time everything was said and done, had OVERPAID them by thousands of dollars. They system just lost the money. He ended up having to sue his company, or should I say his company's payroll company. Even though both him and his wife told social service over and over again there was something wrong with their bookkeeping, they didn't want to listen. The guy had maybe $50 out of his paycheck by the time they got done with him.....so, well, I think there's alot of improvement to be had on their administration of that system.

And, well, tell ya what. When I had my kids, we probably could live a half-way decent life making $25,000, and be able to afford basic medical needs. The cost of your basic necessities have gone up, but not the pay.

If you want my opinion, the republicans wouldn't know what to do without the democrats worrying about the poor and low-wage earners....why.....they might even have to raise the minimum wage then to prevent the employees from starving to death or freezing in a snow bank somewhere... Face it, the two parties, working together, have effectively relieved the business sector from having much responsibility whatsoever of providing a living wage to their oh-hum average employee! Which gives the mid and upper management a great opportunity to earn 6 or 7 figure incomes!!

Originally posted by ADHDsux4me
I just thought I'd present with some proof regarding Cuba's denial of citizens leaving.

www.washingtonpost.com...�Found=true

My Thanks,

-ADHDsux4me

from that same article:

"The Cuban government denies that it prevents its citizens from emigrating. It says would-be emigrants, however, must gain entry to the United States by seeking a U.S. visa in Havana -- not by defecting."

Sounds reasonable to me.

Living in Massachusetts, I know how the system rapes people for child support. In fact child support laws are so Gestapo, you quite literally can pay 75% of your pay to child support, and if you don't, they do wondrefull things like suspend your drivers license, further reducing your ability to offer said support.

My Father has to pay child support to my crazy manic bi-polar mother. She's one hell of an actress, all of the false memories her mind has concoted are firmly rooted into her persona, she likes to play the part of the martyr. Who ends up with the raw deal, my father who lives in Maine trying to re-establish himself. He has a new family, he still loves us very much he just finally has something good for himself. All he ever wanted was to be a Patriachal figurehead of a family, and have the love of his wife, and his family. I'm 27 so child dupport does not factor in, but my sisters are 19 and 15. He can barely pay his rent, and he lives in Maine, all thanks to my mother. So you will probably say, well he's doing fine if he can pay his rent. That's not entirely the case, yes he can pay his rent, if he chooses to ignore other amenities like food, and heating oil. It's a tightrope walk, and balancing act. He always ends up in the hole, every 3rd month. He also has the support financially of his new wife my Step Mother, but she herself has her own debts, and can only contribute so much.

Raw Deal in Massachusetts!

-ADHDsux4me

Originally posted by dawnstar

If they are on welfare, well, there's the free lunch program for them..... We're not on welfare, we make far too much money for it, and well, we are just barely over their guideline....so your what-if doesn't work out.

Well, thanks for the input. I was unaware of the free lunch program. It turns out that I was working on disinfo from someone. Their credibility just went down the toilet.

Originally posted by General Zapata
For example, consider cuba. Basic services and amentities were taken out of the market and made public. The economic system was made much more democratic through worker-elected representatives. Education and healthcare were made free to all. Cuba is on the up and up, despite the horrors it has faced from the imperialist west.

Have you ever been there? Cuba is the darling of the
radical left and of Hollywood ... but the repression and religious
persecution there is outrageous. 'Basic amenities' ??? Not in
Cuba. 'Worker-elected representatives'? Yeah, right ...
Communist snitches. Neighbors tattle on neighbors just to get
a few extra cents from the government. It's a nightmare there.
Cuba definately is not 'on the up and up'.

[edit on 11/22/2004 by FlyersFan]

The majority of people on the social services are not lazy or unwilling to work. Most have a legitimate reason to use them. It's the usual republican drivel when they use the excuse of "laziness" to bash social services. Sure, you're going to have several who will abuse the system but most do not.

Same as I posted earlier, why not get rid of the democratic system because the majority of the country don't show up at he polls?

I have no problem with being taxed to fund social services, I am glad I am helping for the common good of all, you cannot let the few abusers ruin it for all.

I believe that the basic needs of all should be covered regardless of the level of wealth they might have. But of course, the elitists running this country could never have this.. for they spend more money funding acts of aggression (Iraq) than on the needs of the people here at home. Can't improve conditions here at home? Why even bother fixing Iraq? What about America?

[edit on 22-11-2004 by RedOctober90]

Originally posted by Majic
Left or Right, they are all crooks, taking by force of statute what no decent moral code would ever allow them to take openly.

But look at how each side uses demagoguery and bigotry to inflame their �masses� into obedience. Buying into either extreme is a fool�s game. A game far too many people play, and there is more than enough evidence of it in these forums.

The truth is that both the Left and the Right are in business for themselves, and no one else.
[edit on 11/20/2004 by Majic]

Majic - I don't agree with all you say - but do with the above. ...It's a problem inherent in any institutionalization, I think.

So where do we go from here? ...We're looking at a planet that's being destroyed and made barren of life. A bunch of greedy fools that think they can loot to survive, and a mass of overwhelmed and ignorant people who are just trying to get by from one day to the next.

If you believe in justice, how do you define it? ...If you see that what we have doesn't work, what would you use to replace it? ...Do you think a form of anarchy could save the planet, and if so how?



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