Scientists Claim That Quantum Theory Proves Consciousness Moves To Another Universe At Death

GargIndia
Chopra is wrong.

At least something we agree on.

GargIndia
Would like to know your understanding of TOE. A false and political theory can have many versions. Would like to know which one you believe in. Also tell the 'experiments' which prove this theory right.

There is only one Theory of Evolution, it is the same one I learned in school as well the same one kids learn today in school. It explains mechanism of changes in living world and it has been proven with many experiments correct, as well through observations of fossils.

Here is a bit info about evolution and misconception that evolution is not science:

Evolution is observable and testable. The misconception here is that science is limited to controlled experiments that are conducted in laboratories by people in white lab coats. Actually, much of science is accomplished by gathering evidence from the real world and inferring how things work. Astronomers cannot hold stars in their hands and geologists cannot go back in time, but in both cases scientists can learn a great deal by using multiple lines of evidence to make valid and useful inferences about their objects of study. The same is true of the study of the evolutionary history of life on Earth, and as a matter of fact, many mechanisms of evolution are studied through direct experimentation as in more familiar sciences. *

* source - Berkeley - Misconception: “Evolution is not science because it is not observable or testable.”

Follow links there to find for example The Lederberg Experiment or Evolution in Lab. There is a lot of material on internet, all it require is a bit of time to find it out.

GargIndia
My problem is I am forced to prove you wrong rather than offer you result of experiments due to highly political nature of this subject and shutting out of people who would want to run experiments to prove this theory false.

What are you talking about? Even voodoo scientist such as Chopra and Lanza work in labs and write books about part of science that they don't have full understanding off, but still no one stops them. Please in future give some examples of so called 'political shut downs' of those who opposed 'ToE'.

GargIndia
Wow. God being traffic controller? Did I use these words.

No, but you gave him such a function. Very busy guy considering amount of life on earth today.

GargIndia
Each soul gets born in a human, animal or plant body as per karmas. Yes many deaths are horrible (not all). People die in accidents, by disease etc. Many animals are slaughtered or are killed due to violence. This is a fact of life.

Where is 'free will there'?

GargIndia
No. Humans are free to do good or bad deeds. God does not force you. However every soul has to face result of actions.

You have to decide, if there is karma, means that you are selected in that body to face death for something your soul has done in previous life. Is that correct explanation for karma? Where is free will there? If you bound to face results of your previous actions (that you don't even know or remember), how is that not forcing someone? Please elaborate more on your concept of karma.

GargIndia
The Creation is for souls, and souls get born in animal and plant species as well. The creation is not only for humans. You write these words due to your ego - a human centric nature.

Nah, religions, including your are base for 'a human centric nature'. Carl Sagan comes into mind with his quote - The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition.

GargIndia
This is the exact reason we do not tell our experiences. This is the reason why spiritual people avoid the society, and people do not get the benefit of such knowledge. You can say such words, and I appreciate where you are coming from.

Sorry if I offended you in any way, but having so called 'powers' that you are unable to reproduce in lab environment just does not work for someone like me. I believe in science and experiments, and I believe that if you can really heal with bare hand, job of science would be to find mechanism behind it and try to reproduce it and learn it. But guess how many of those claiming those powers really turned to have them and how many of them were hoax, praying on sick people. There is whole industry here based on scamming sick and old.

GargIndia
No. But medicine does not always work. Too many examples - you can talk to doctors.

I assume your healing power does always work. Right?

GargIndia
You are crazy. Branding people who have seen spiritual powers as "unable to think on their own". It is a fact that some people have taken advantage of religion. Does not mean all of it is imagination.

It is probable that I am crazy, and those believing in imaginary things based on 2-3 thousands year book are only normal people. I did not say that they are 'unable' to think on their own - just lazy to do it. They are quite capable to think...

GargIndia
Atheism is a cult which has penetrated Christian church and several other religions. People pretend to be religious but they are not.

Do you have any proof for this claim?

GargIndia
Atheism is very much a cult. People who deny so much of reality around them and believe only in things selectively cannot be anything but a cult.

This got me laughing. Who denies reality, people who believe in science or those believing in human super powers, out of body experience and supreme soul traffic controller? Do you even know what 'cult' means?

GargIndia
Well, learned of India have been shouting from the rooftops about the age of Universe in billions of years for a very long time. Did you listen? For you, Christian church is the only religion.

You got it wrong. I said that I studied all religion equally, and I never belonged in any religion at all. No single day of my life. What was that popular song - born this way...

Can you please for future try to use quote and /quote between [ and ] to make it easier to follow discussion and answers?

How fast is your internet, I know you mentioned you are unable to follow videos.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


What is self-awareness?

Only a living organism can have consciousness or self-awareness.

Non-living do not have consciousness or awareness.

For example if a pin pricks my finger, I feel pain and show by expressions. However if the same pin pricks a dead body, that dead body does not show any pain by its expressions as it does not feel any pain.

In which way can atoms have consciousness or be self-aware?

Mr Chopra is confused by an Indian belief that 'God permeates everything in the Universe'. The Vedic teacher says that God's powers are acting on each and every particle in this universe. That does not make each particle conscious or self-aware.

The 'prakriti' or native state of matter cannot construct a Universe. Only God has that power.

The problem is that people always try to remove the God from the equation. So these theories come up - like matter has consciousness.

SuperFrog

I believe in science and experiments [...]

Sorry but I don't think you do. I think you believe in science and experiments only to the degree that they tell you what you want to hear. There is a century of science and experiments in parapsychology that provides more than enough evidence of psychic functioning. If you really believed in science and experiments, then you would follow the evidence, not scientism.

GargIndia
...For example if a pin pricks my finger, I feel pain and show by expressions. However if the same pin pricks a dead body, that dead body does not show any pain by its expressions as it does not feel any pain....

I like that example. If consciousness is something inherent in all atoms, then why does dead body lack a consciousness, but a live "working" body has a consciousness?

The same atoms (same brain chemicals) present in the live body are present in the dead body, so what has changed? Why did "consciousness" leave the dead body when the same atoms are still there? What changed on the atomic/quantum level? Did anything change?

BlueMule
Sorry but I don't think you do. I think you believe in science and experiments only to the degree that they tell you what you want to hear. There is a century of science and experiments in parapsychology that provides more than enough evidence of psychic functioning. If you really believed in science and experiments, then you would follow the evidence, not scientism.

I really don't see how Persinger and his God Helmet will help this discussion...

Even famous atheist, Dr. Dawkins was subject for this experiment, and guess what result was.... ( The God Experiments )

reply to post by SuperFrog


The God has powers which are so immense that they are beyond the understanding of ordinary humans.

God can manage the entire universe and the entire populations of souls there in without any problem.

The problem is with your conception of God.

I like that you gave two experiments, and these experiments in no way support TOE.

Your first experiment about bacteria does not show in any way a change in species. The bacteria, whether resistant to a disease or not, stays a bacteria.

Your second experiment about fishes adapting to the environment is widely observed in nature. Every living being has the ability to adapt to the environment, within the bounds of its bodily capability. Nobody doubts that fact. This is not an evidence of mutation of genes that results in a new species.

My issue with TOE is evolution of one species into another species, and so called progression of life from a bacteria to humans. Please quote your experiments for that.

reply to post by GargIndia

The God has powers which are so immense that they are beyond the understanding of ordinary humans.

God can manage the entire universe and the entire populations of souls there in without any problem.

The problem is with your conception of God.

I have two things to say here. One, by what scientifically determined parameters are you identifying an entity as a deity? What specific attributes are, singularly or conjunctively, scientifically proven to be specific only to beings of a godly nature? What entities are currently in existence that are proven beyond a doubt to possess such attributes to such a degree in such proportions?

And two, would you be willing to formulate a series of experiments by which you would attempt to falsify the claims you just made?

That's all for now.

"The evidence for shutting out of opponents to TOE"

I shall come out with that in due time. Why? Because to protect the privacy of people engaged in gainful employment.

However I am sure people will support me on ATS itself.

SuperFrog

BlueMule
Sorry but I don't think you do. I think you believe in science and experiments only to the degree that they tell you what you want to hear. There is a century of science and experiments in parapsychology that provides more than enough evidence of psychic functioning. If you really believed in science and experiments, then you would follow the evidence, not scientism.

I really don't see how Persinger and his God Helmet will help this discussion...

Translation: "I'm not open to evidence that consciousness can leave our skull"

If you were to watch the vid, you'd see that it's about evidence. Do you believe in science or not? It doesn't dwell on the God helmet. I know its a long vid but its well worth it. I'm just trying to help you man.

AfterInfinity
reply to post by GargIndia

 

The God has powers which are so immense that they are beyond the understanding of ordinary humans.

God can manage the entire universe and the entire populations of souls there in without any problem.

The problem is with your conception of God.

I have two things to say here. One, by what scientifically determined parameters are you identifying an entity as a deity? What specific attributes are, singularly or conjunctively, scientifically proven to be specific only to beings of a godly nature? What entities are currently in existence that are proven beyond a doubt to possess such attributes to such a degree in such proportions?

And two, would you be willing to formulate a series of experiments by which you would attempt to falsify the claims you just made?

That's all for now.

I did not say 'godly' nature.

I use the word 'spiritual' for a purpose.

There is no deity. All images of God are false.

As for science, true science and God are always in sync. It is humans that fail to understand that. The human understanding of natural truth will be perfect only after understanding the powers of God.

As we go along, I shall show you the defects of many experiments that lead to incorrect conclusions in modern science. I shall also suggest experiments which can clearly prove the defects.

BlueMule
Translation: "I'm not open to evidence that consciousness can leave our skull"

If you were to watch the vid, you'd see that it's about evidence. Do you believe in science or not? It doesn't dwell on the God helmet. I know its a long vid but its well worth it. I'm just trying to help you man.

No, you got it wrong. I am not open for voodoo scientist claims that they unable to prove to rest of scientific community.

If you really worry about evidence, how is Persinger work accepted in scientific community and what is reason for that?

Just as I said, adding third voodoo scientist to this discussion definitely will not help. At least Lanza has some other work in tissue engineering and did not focus his talent solely on biocentric universe.

SuperFrog

BlueMule
Translation: "I'm not open to evidence that consciousness can leave our skull"

If you were to watch the vid, you'd see that it's about evidence. Do you believe in science or not? It doesn't dwell on the God helmet. I know its a long vid but its well worth it. I'm just trying to help you man.

No, you got it wrong. I am not open for voodoo scientist claims that they unable to prove to rest of scientific community.

If you really worry about evidence, how is Persinger work accepted in scientific community and what is reason for that?

Just as I said, adding third voodoo scientist to this discussion definitely will not help. At least Lanza has some other work in tissue engineering and did not focus his talent solely on biocentric universe.

Translation: "I follow the herd"

Persinger has a lot of evidence based on experiments. He gives an overview in the vid. As for proving it to the "scientific community", you can sit and wait for your authority figures to approve it for your herd-mentality, or you can show some independent thinking.

BlueMule
Translation: "I follow the herd"

Persinger has a lot of evidence based on experiments. He gives an overview in the vid. As for proving it to the "scientific community", you can sit and wait for your authority figures to approve it for your herd-mentality, or you can show some independent thinking.

Sure, if you mean follow scientific community and believe in progress we, humans do due to science and research.

Persinger IMHO is on the way to create something we saw in movies such as 'Total Recall'. Someone sensing presence of higher being is not the same as that being really existing and being in the same room as they.

I am not sure why you so hard pressing on this voodoo scientist, who IMHO has better opportunity in Hollywood and try to create virtual reality then convince scientist that there is 'higher power' without any proof.

Spiritual people were unable to prove the same for years, he definitely will not be able to prove either.

SuperFrog

BlueMule
Translation: "I follow the herd"

Persinger has a lot of evidence based on experiments. He gives an overview in the vid. As for proving it to the "scientific community", you can sit and wait for your authority figures to approve it for your herd-mentality, or you can show some independent thinking.

Sure, if you mean follow scientific community and believe in progress we, humans do due to science and research.

Sometimes the "official" scientific mainstream can lead one in the wrong direction.

I am not sure why you so hard pressing on this voodoo scientist, who IMHO has better opportunity in Hollywood and try to create virtual reality then convince scientist that there is 'higher power' without any proof.

Only one way to find out. Watch the vid. His work with Harribance is very impressive. I would hate to see you miss out on an opportunity to widen your paradigm.

BlueMule
Sometimes the "official" scientific mainstream can lead one in the wrong direction.

Sure, I take the risk. It is much more promising then something already proven wrong...

BlueMule
Only one way to find out. Watch the vid. His work with Harribance is very impressive. I would hate to see you miss out on an opportunity to widen your paradigm.

Riiigghhhhttt...

A NeuroQuantologic Approach to
How Human Thought Might Affect the Universe (PDF)

Every scientist who jumps from his field of study, reads something that he does not understand completely (Just like Chopra and Lanza), and based on that makes extra ordinary claims without much of proof. (note, even title said 'Might') is for me voodoo scientist. Without disrespect, they might have produced a lot of real scientific work, but this particular gray area is just that - gray area.

Try to use science to prove religion experience real... I guess I am another one in that 20% that will never experience something like that... thankfully...

reply to post by SuperFrog


Well that's your choice, but the new, solid, and replicable evidence is there. Willful ignorance and a herd-mentality will allow you to maintain your flawed paradigm, but its not very respectable. What if every scientist thought the way you do? Luckily a pioneer comes along once in a while who forces science to correct itself.

I hope science comes around soon enough to lead you to the top of the mountain, where you will find the mystics of all ages have been waiting.

Good luck.

BlueMule
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Well that's your choice, but the new, solid, and replicable evidence is there. Willful ignorance and a herd-mentality will allow you to maintain your flawed paradigm, but its not very respectable. What if every scientist thought the way you do? Luckily a pioneer comes along once in a while who forces science to correct itself.

I hope science comes around soon enough to lead you to the top of the mountain, where you will find the mystics of all ages have been waiting.

Good luck.

So now ignorance is not to take seriously someone claiming non-sense. Interestingly, you did not mention or comment PDF attached with article signed by Persinger and friends with claim that our mind (might) model universe...

Givin' example of ignorance.

SuperFrog

BlueMule
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Well that's your choice, but the new, solid, and replicable evidence is there. Willful ignorance and a herd-mentality will allow you to maintain your flawed paradigm, but its not very respectable. What if every scientist thought the way you do? Luckily a pioneer comes along once in a while who forces science to correct itself.

I hope science comes around soon enough to lead you to the top of the mountain, where you will find the mystics of all ages have been waiting.

Good luck.

So now ignorance is not to take seriously someone claiming non-sense. Interestingly, you did not mention or comment PDF attached with article signed by Persinger and friends with claim that our mind (might) model universe...

Givin' example of ignorance.

I'm not sure why you think that pdf is supposed to help your case, but I have no problem with it. Thanks.

"The second implication is that the extreme empiricism of historical researchers such as Charles Fort (1974) should be re-evaluated as more than the obsessive cataloguing by schizotypical recluses. Fortean phenomena are actual events that do not fit into contemporary scientific paradigms (Persinger and Lafreniere, 1977). There are always the "leftovers" following every shift in conceptual paradigm that are excluded because their existence challenges the cognitive structure."

So now I guess it's your turn. Watch the vid and prove you aren't some kind of fundamentalist.

anyone check out my replies on 13?

Soylent Green Is People

GargIndia
...For example if a pin pricks my finger, I feel pain and show by expressions. However if the same pin pricks a dead body, that dead body does not show any pain by its expressions as it does not feel any pain....

I like that example. If consciousness is something inherent in all atoms, then why does dead body lack a consciousness, but a live "working" body has a consciousness?

The same atoms (same brain chemicals) present in the live body are present in the dead body, so what has changed? Why did "consciousness" leave the dead body when the same atoms are still there? What changed on the atomic/quantum level? Did anything change?

I know this one because something the cells needed to survive stopped and they die. Or something killed tomany sells causing damage to the system like lead poisoning via a gun.