White House: Global Warming Probably Responsible For ‘Polar Vortex,’ Record Low Temperatures Acr

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


That's my main concern is that we are seeing the climate change, and all this arguing about what we are or aren't doing is pointless because it's going to happen just like it's always happened before.

Logic says we should be smart enough to adapt, but we seem awfully determined to cripple ourselves through so-called political brilliance.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


What you seem to always not factor into your pondering's is that climate change doesn't just happen, there's always a catalyst. Orbital forcing, a meteor, volcanic so on and so on, what's clear... is that when our atmosphere is changed dramatically so does our climate. Regardless of politics. Your example is of natural disaster or a catalyst that caused some major area of effect climate change.

reply to post by Kali74


Well, a couple spots on that chart are of major spikes...but then, look at the left side of the chart and where it shows a slow, gentle and centuries long cooling trend. No major catalyst there. It's a long running and shallow slope. Now, of course we know if we look at that much closer, we can see the Mini-ice age a few hundred years ago and other climactic variations that longer view doesn't show.

Then again, it is that much much longer view I don't often see pointed to and what it shows for those repeated trends up and down...up and down..endlessly, is important.

What is sobering though, is still the fact that for as dramatic a look as that gives and others run out hundreds of thousands of years to give even clearer evidence of the up/down rolling trends, it's still a fraction of a moment in our planets ACTUAL record.

Now Uncle Sam and several other nations have been preparing for something. I don't know what, but the physical preparations in 2012 that everyone took to be prophecy related weren't imaginary. Things like the total rebuilding of the civil defense shelter network around Moscow with some urgency...did happen. So, what if world authority have stumbled across record more lengthy than we know of and it is showing longer trends which aren't positive?

Again, there is SO much here we do not know. People are trying to short cut right to solutions when the outline of the problem isn't fully clear....and poor choices could be terminal choices on this one.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


There was a catalyst. From your source:

One theory put forth by Barber, et. al.(1999) as to what triggered this 400 year period of cooling is that two gigantic glacial lakes in Canada's Hudson Bay region some 8,200 years ago broke open when an ice dam from a remnant of the Laurentide Ice Sheet collapsed. The flow of lake water rushing through the Hudson Strait and into the Labrador Sea is estimated to be about 15 times greater than the current discharge of the Amazon River

And probably what caused the LIA was that there was also a period of high volcanic activity, preceding. SO2 reflects sunlight in the upper atmosphere.

reply to post by Kali74


Yes, if you look at the right side of the chart, you see the 8200 year segment for a hard drop from a major event. I'd noted that. As I also noted above, if you look at the left side of the chart and more recent times? You see a general gradual drop from around 2,300 to a couple hundred years ago for Greenland temp and less clarity for Germany between 2,300 and about 600 years ago. Then it's a pronounced drop and cooling from that to present day (greenline).

Was there a major cooling catalyst in Europe that extends across the last 600 years or so and close to today? There isn't that I'm aware of..but then, libraries could store what I don't know and learn a bit more of every day.


(For reference, since it's a diff page)

I generally agree with climate change happening, and have seen this since the 90's with more serious weather events around the nation by driving in it. It's that whole "absolute settled" concept of what form that change is taking that I simply can't get behind.

The theories to explain warmer or cooler for how it's all supposedly still the precisely same theory so much is invested in....seem to change as needed, as weather keeps doing what computer models fail to predict. I'm as anxious as anyone to see solid pattern. I just don't see it yet.

reply to post by ketsuko


I wouldn't put it past the controlling powers to find a way to tax that way, but let's not give them any ideas.
I agree, wator vapor is the driving force with greenhouse gases and allows the weather to be heightened by the effects of global warming.
I'd still say, the White House statement is accurate. I don't often agree with our government, but now and then they get something right. I don't think anyone is being misled here. I think people that don't want to inform themselves will latch on to the talking points of either side, whichever suits their needs.
I appreciated MysteryX response, because it made me go look up information about greenhouse gases, and lo, I found it was not the evil CO2 causing the envelope. It doesn't mean that all that CO2 is healthy for the environment, but it has given me new perspective. I try to not jump to conclusions, and attempt to reign it in, finding healthy dialog generally better and more informative than attack.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Orbit and axial wise, we're supposed to be in a cool period.

reply to post by Kali74


What is that expectation based on for previous patterns to go by? The last 12,000 years seem to show nonstop change, but little in the way of regular and predictable patterns within that timeframe. Do you have a longer view to indicate that?

I get what you mean on physical characteristics of Earth, but there again, it's one set of factors in a system of incredible complexity. I'd have faith in our ability to figure that out to some certainty, if computer models ranging forward had and were coming true ..but they aren't, and people have been really focusing on this for about 15 years of faulty models now.

This is where much of the disconnect for seeing patterning comes from. ...based on what?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Models have largely been accurate.

will fix link in the morning.

reply to post by FirePiston


I third that, moving out to something real.

reply to post by Mamatus


It's Not Global Warming causing this Cold Spell here in Jan. 2014 , it's Called WINTER ..........


i297.photobucket.com...

Kali74
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

What you seem to always not factor into your pondering's is that climate change doesn't just happen, there's always a catalyst. Orbital forcing, a meteor, volcanic so on and so on, what's clear... is that when our atmosphere is changed dramatically so does our climate. Regardless of politics. Your example is of natural disaster or a catalyst that caused some major area of effect climate change.

edit on 1/8/2014 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

How about the fact that the Earth itself is a dynamo? What is to say that it's own exhaust (volcanos, ash, oil and everything else that it forces to the surface) isn't responsible for the atmospheric change?

Then you steal water from the nearest large body of water, making deals with the local thugs, and use it to frack the crust and loose methane, lying all the while, because you are now wealthy and don't give a crap about anyone but yourself. Crime of the century here, imo. Waters tables irrevocably damaged. It's as if they are deliberately destroying the ecosystem. I assure you that water which is marginally useful for human consumption, will skyrocket.

But we are supposed to pay through the nose, literally, unless you're a mouth breather, for all this John Galt hog-slop, simply because we are too small to resist!

That is precisely why the emotionally vulnerable feel compelled to throw tax money, with moral high-handedness, at fighting 'carbon'. It gives them a chance to boost morale, because they have been brainwashed that it is the right thing. To give them a chance to atone for their life, their living state.

It is, literally, their religion.

Go ask Father Al.

# 116

Kali74
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Orbit and axial wise, we're supposed to be in a cool period.

Im not sure what you meant as far as orbit the earth is closest to the sun right about now january 4th to be exact. As far as axis this causes the northern hemisphere to receive less light because of the angle its more diffused. But in the southern hemisphere there receiving more direct light its there summer. So orbit and axis has nothing to do with global temperatures since they are an average.

Wrabbit2000
reply to post by Kali74

 

Now Uncle Sam and several other nations have been preparing for something. I don't know what, but the physical preparations in 2012 that everyone took to be prophecy related weren't imaginary. Things like the total rebuilding of the civil defense shelter network around Moscow with some urgency...did happen. So, what if world authority have stumbled across record more lengthy than we know of and it is showing longer trends which aren't positive?

Again, there is SO much here we do not know. People are trying to short cut right to solutions when the outline of the problem isn't fully clear....and poor choices could be terminal choices on this one.

Ok nothing to link cause I just woke up and saw this and no coffee yet, but, weren't the Russians the ones that were drilling in that Antarctic lake? Ice cores are the best indicator of temp, air quality etc over the ages for this kinda stuff, right? They can test the bubbles in the ice to see what levels of CO2 etc are at at times in wayyyy back history iirc.

So what I'm trying badly to say is, maybe they found something that indicates climate change can happen swiftly (think "Day After Tomorrow") instead of over time like they always said before? Or something even more sinister? I dunno that just occurred to my sleep laden brain when I read that.

Lil

PS like the B&W icons best so far mmmm coffee

Kali74
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Models have largely been accurate.

will fix link in the morning.

edit on 1/9/2014 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

Sorry not going to have time to fully address your post this morning, so it will have to wait until after work. However one of the easiest ways to check model accuracy is to look at the predictive charts yourself and compare them to observed data. What you will see is that most climate model predictions in their original form (not retrofitted as some claim people do to make them accurate) with the observed record. We've warmed about .8C degrees most models predicted we'd be about here by now.

reply to post by dragonridr


I'm referring to Milankovitch Cycles

reply to post by Lilroanie


Yes... You're talking about Lake Vostok and it's been one of my passions to follow as a story since I first heard about it, shortly after they discovered they built the Vostok Science Station right on top of a ancient Great Lake. That has also been a site of much mystery and speculation with communication blackouts coming at odd times and a real lack of information, to what I'd think, for the ongoing work and level of excitement to the discovery.

I also, very recently learned Russia has another distinction and I discovered this in a "25 dumbest and most dangerous science projects ever devised". This one even surpassed the Manhattan Project and it's fears of atmospheric chain reaction. In 1989 the Soviet Union completed as much as they'd ever do on an attempt to literally drill through the Earth's crust and reach the first level of the Mantle....to see what happened. They managed to get 40,218 feet down before terminating the effort for issues of molten rock backfilling their hole at depth. I'm wondering how much they learned of patterns and such from that and other related experiments too ....

People look to Space with fear of the unknown and speculate that a major threat could come without the public knowing ..and I say B.S., since the public itself is what controls the equipment which searches for threats. Our OWN planet is quite another matter, isn't it?

As you note with Lake Vostok and the Kola Super-Deep Borehole shows in a different way, there absolutely ARE truths which Governments may learn of our planet's past by sheer ability to look where no one else physically can ...and THAT could absolutely be hidden for the few who would necessarily have to know about it, to discover it.

Kali74

Kali74
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Models have largely been accurate.

will fix link in the morning.

edit on 1/9/2014 by Kali74 because: (no reason given)

Sorry not going to have time to fully address your post this morning so it will have to wait until after work.

I have days or weeks to carry this thread on, if you'd like. I'm so totally disgusted by the lack of good faith efforts to present the data itself? I've truly been waiting for a thread with decent people and no trollish fighting to dig in and really swim around this topic for awhile. You could say I've been very much anticipating the opportunity, in fact.

However one of the easiest ways to check model accuracy is to look at the predictive charts yourself and compare them to observed data.

Please support what you say, and I'll be happy to do the same on everything I say from this point forward here. If there are models that compare well to predictive charts? Great... You absolutely must know which ones those are, or you wouldn't casually refer to them...correct? Please supply them so we can both look at the same material together and draw conclusions from that same data set.

What you will see is that most climate model predictions in their original form (not retrofitted as some claim people do to make them accurate) with the observed record.

You may well be correct. I don't believe it by claim on a forum post any more than I believe the "scientists" busted outright on fabricating and manipulating data with an Email scandal some time back. Again, please, if referencing material in specific ways? Gimmie a path to view that same material so I can see myself how you're reaching these conclusions.

I'm really interested in an honest and legitimate discussion here...not argument and sure not a contest of bumper sticker slogans and tired tag lines.

Your position may really hold far more water than I believe it does. I've shown a great deal of data for why my position is, basically, no position at all but to watch the data for more trending and patterning that indicates what's actually happening and why. Care to see what we can establish as definite vs. assumption and presumption? I'm game...

I didn't know where to post this and I had never heard of it before.

125 years ago, deadly 'Children’s Blizzard' blasted Minnesota
The storm happened at the tail-end of a six-year run of extreme weather called the “Little Ice Age.”
www.minnpost.com...

This was not a storm of drifting lace snowflakes, but of flash-frozen droplets firing sideways from the sky, an onslaught of speeding ice needles moving at more than 60 miles per hour. Even without the whiteout conditions — climate experts call this zero/zero visibility — many people couldn’t see because the microscopic bits of ice literally froze their eyes shut.

In total blindness with few buildings, fences or landmarks to guide them, some settlers became completely and utterly lost. Norwegian immigrant Seselia Knutson became frantic when her husband, Knut, was trapped out in the blizzard. She went out to look for him and became so confused she froze to death under a sled just 40 steps from her front door. Hanley Countryman of Alexandria was trekking back to his house with 40 pounds of provisions and lay down in the snow to die just 150 yards from his threshold.

Schoolchildren, many of whom had left for school without coats, hats and mittens — the better to bask in the comparative warmth of a January thaw — were overcome by the blizzard. In many places, the storm made its debut just as students were walking back home from school. The air was not only filled with blowing ice, but temperatures plummeted to frightening lows. By the afternoon in Moorhead, it was 47 degrees below zero, and the force of the wind — reported by the Minneapolis Tribune at 60 miles per hour

MysterX

Golantrevize
Worst polar storms have happened for millions of years in the past. There is nothing static about our planet.

Exactly.

The government probably doesn't think the people are smart enough to realise that ALL weather on this and every other planet is determined by the SUN...anyone looked at the high weirdness displayed by the sun over the last decade?

I suppose we're responsible for the sun's antics too are we?

Sheesh.

The sun is responsible for all weather? Last time I checked earth had an atmosphere.