UK police , Mark Duggan and Tottenham riots

The verdict is out. According to the law Mark Duggan was lawfully killed.

This is despite not being armed and it deemed unlikely that he could have thrown a gun after being shot twice at close range by armed police.

This now sets a precedent that if you are 'suspected' of carrying a weapon, you are now more likely to be shot by police than arrested.

news.sky.com...

news.sky.com...

www.bbc.co.uk...

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On another note. Twitter reports are saying that there's already a large police presence in Tottenham, allegedly stop and searches in the black community to defuse any hostility to the police, to avoid any repeats of the riots of 2011.

reply to post by mr-lizard


Nonetheless, the verdict is that he has a gun - he just dumped it before he was shot by police officers who assumed he still held it.

I guess the lesson is: if you are, or are suspected of being, a nasty thug and drug dealer intending to cause death or injury to others, it's best not to give the police any reason at all to think you have a gun when they stop you with the intention of preventing said crime.

reply to post by mr-lizard


I have always thought our armed police are a scary trigger happy lot.

Even in cases where no firearm or weapon is involved they are always heavy handed.

Nasty people.

mr-lizard
The verdict is out. According to the law Mark Duggan was lawfully killed.

This is despite not being armed and it deemed unlikely that he could have thrown a gun after being shot twice at close range by armed police.

This now sets a precedent that if you are 'suspected' of carrying a weapon, you are now more likely to be shot by police than arrested.

news.sky.com...

news.sky.com...

www.bbc.co.uk...

----

On another note. Twitter reports are saying that there's already a large police presence in Tottenham, allegedly stop and searches in the black community to defuse any hostility to the police, to avoid any repeats of the riots of 2011.

Shocking decision on what I know of the case, apparent failures with the intelligence behind it also. Can't help but feel that the decision was made to avoid the hassle of bringing action against the officers involved.

It's a pretty shocking verdict - Surely in the eyes of the law shooting an un-armed person is always unlawful. Police could go round shooting anyone and just say they mistakenly thought they saw a gun.

reply to post by Zcustosmorum


Are people forgetting that this decision was made by a jury...8 to 2. The weapon was found 6m from the scene.
I think the jury were very brave considering they were abused in court doing their civic duty.

The jury were asked these questions.

In the period between midday on 3 August 2011 and when state amber was called at 6.00 pm on 4 August 2011, did the Metropolitan Police Service and the Serious Organised Crime Agency do the best they realistically could have done to gather and react to intelligence about the possibility of Mr Duggan collecting a gun from Mr Hutchinson-Foster? The jury said a unanimous no.
Was the stop conducted in a location and in a way which minimised, to the greatest extent possible, recourse to lethal force? Unanimous yes.
Did Mr Duggan have the gun with him in the taxi immediately before the stop? Unanimous yes
How did the gun get to the grass area where it was later found? A majority of 9 to 1 said it was thrown.
When Mr Duggan received a fatal shot, did he have the gun in his hand? A majority of 8 to 2 said no, he did not have a gun in his hand.

Still questions to be answered of course on this btw.

Source.

www.bbc.co.uk...


It is simple carry a gun in the UK don't cry when you get shot by armed police.

I just cannot fathom this decision.
Nobody is disputing guy was shady, dodgy or a bit of a thug, but that does excuse the pre-meditated murder of an unarmed man.
They could have waited, they should have shown restraint and control.
You cannot allow this as a precedent because it just allows police to shoot ANYONE they choose because they may have a gun, or not.

This is a very dangerous and disturbing day for the UK judicial system

Disgusting. Just heard this on the news and its boiled my blood. Its not hard to imagine the police and justice system workig together to cover up their crimes - look at the revelations about the hilsborough disaster!

Hope they riot. Its the only form of protest that makes people sit up.

reply to post by SearchLightsInc


If it was a closed verdict not one made by a jury I would agree but it was not.
Anyhow Iam out because I fear a lynching coming lol.
Oh and If people riot It will be only because the new games consoles are out and they want a good swag bag full of stuff.

midicon
reply to post by mr-lizard

 

I have always thought our armed police are a scary trigger happy lot.

Even in cases where no firearm or weapon is involved they are always heavy handed.

Nasty people.

Not defending the police but how many times do you hear that the police have shot and killed someone. I've heard about more deaths of police officers than I have of 'trigger happy' police. The fact that also not all our police are armed. I think our police are a lot less trigger happy than the Americans.

As for the case, I chatted with my dad earlier who use to be a police officer and he said he can't work out what has gone on here he is 50/50 about the whole thing there are certain things that don't add up

reply to post by boymonkey74


I agree there protest and there's rioting. Most of the people rioting were just thugs, wannabe tough guys impressing their mates, scum bags just wanting to rob something

This is utter bollocks....

Police lied soooo many during this.

Firstly, there was a shootout because Duggan fired first - NOT TRUE

Secondly, Duggan Pointed a gun at following officers in their car - NOT TRUE

Thirdly, Considering that Duggan did NOT have a gun when he was shot, just begs the question, How did the police find "his" gun over a fence and in a grassy area??



This case stinks... It's just another police/courts coverup.

Hillsborough, Miners strike... there are probably hundreds of incidents like this, going on yearly, small scale, large scale COVER UPS.

Consider yourselves lucky in the UK.

Here is the USA this kinda crap barely makes the news anymore. An unarmed citizen being shot by the police is a near to be weekly occurrence here.

There is an old saying live by the sword die by the sword. If one is a drug dealer and carrying a gun then one can assume that the dealer is willing to use it to kill someone. Criminals that carry guns should be shot before they use them.

reply to post by boymonkey74

It is simple carry a gun in the UK don't cry when you get shot by armed police.

I would suggest it could be an awful lot simpler. Suspected of carrying a gun, expect to get shot.

You suggest it was brave of the Jury to return a verdict of lawful killing. Personally, I don't think they realise they have come to a momentous decision that could potentially lead to more cops becoming trigger happy.

I appreciate Mark Duggan had previous criminal history, but that should not allow the police to be able to shoot an unarmed person.

Mamatus
Consider yourselves lucky in the UK.

Criminals that carry guns should be shot before they use them.

Indeed.... we are lucky that we don't have that mentality here, and that people DO care when innocent people are shot.

People should be apprehended and charged with possession of a firearm, NOT shot and killed.

Police should be CERTAIN that the suspect has a gun, which in this case, he did NOT.

I have come to a regretful conclusion recently. I no longer trust our police force. They seem to only be on a nodding acquaintance with the truth. We have had a string of cases now where policemen have lied on the stand.

reply to post by mr-lizard



There is an old saying

Live By The Sword Die By The Sword

reply to post by mr-lizard


twitter update

Several dozen supporters of Mark Duggan now outside Tottenham police station

Oh oh. Several dozen people means that there could be more news to come.

midicon
I have always thought our armed police are a scary trigger happy lot.
Even in cases where no firearm or weapon is involved they are always heavy handed.
Nasty people.

Just to help you with your lack of knowledge on the subject, in an effort to deny ignorance...

the police discharged a conventional firearm in 5 incidents (up from 4 incidents in 2010-11)

Source

Hardly trigger happy considering firearms were authorised for use over 14,000 times.

On Druggan. I will roll with the verdict of the jury and not uninformed opinion.

Regards

AngryCymraeg
I have come to a regretful conclusion recently. I no longer trust our police force. They seem to only be on a nodding acquaintance with the truth. We have had a string of cases now where policemen have lied on the stand.

And you can back this claim up ?

I expect the police are glad it is pouring with rain and not a hot summer night, I just hope that when they start rioting again the police use the full force of the law instead of just standing by and worrying about being labeld a racist

how do I know they will riot again ? Listen to thisLBC Radio Londons Biggest Conversation

a reporter from the mail has been attacked and they have threatend one of LBCs

as said above Live by the sword die by the sword