" You might die believing a lie that somebody else created, but you never die willingly for a lie y

" You might die believing a lie that somebody else created, but you never die willingly for a lie you yourself created

This is one of my favourite quotes about the Disciples of Jesus Christ. Most people don't truly give any attention to the fact that the disciples, and many apostles that followed were so sure of what they had experienced when you encountered Jesus Christ and his truth that they willingly surrendered their possessions, their pride, endured extreme persecution and even until Death remained loyal and faithful to their faith.

Why this quote is so important to understand is because it speaks volumes to a human condition, and lends credibility to the gospel accounts in the bible being 100% factual.
For example If you cockered some kind of elaborate tale about your experiences with the Son of God and you found yourself in a Roman coliseum about to be thrown into a lions den and were told if you simply renounced your faith and paid your worship to Cesar you would be spared. You would think at the threat of torture, and impending death 99%.9 of humans would crack and renounce their faith . Human Beings inherently strive to avoid pain at all costs, and the survival mechanism is mind boggling strong.

So the question you need to ask yourself is just what did the disciples know and truly cherish in their hearts? what could lead one to be so sure they would wake up in paradise with God even in the face of death?

If you created the entire lie for control of the masses, power etc.. as so many claim Christianity has done- than please tell me why you are willing to die and lose it all on earth? Any human being without pause at the threat of death would admit their whole faith was a lie, a well corroborated lie If they truly did in fact lie to everybody about who Jesus really was, but they didn't ever crack, and they were faithful until the end.

That is not human, that has to come from something divine, to sustain you in moments of complete anquish, lonelieness, fear, dread etc... Those who first spread the gospel messages of Jesus Christ faced pressures that we probably couldn't fathom, it was a heavy burden to know a lot of the fates of that message lied with them..

How can some not see their is a God?

Unfortunately these days people fall into the either "TV and internet gives me all I need" or the "I’m an atheist and you are stupid if you have any faith of any kind" variety. What annoys me is their anger about people having faith and their arrogance, personally I never debate religion with anyone anymore as it just ends in me getting angry. I believe in God and am content with my life, the way I live and my family and friends. Its seems like society has lost its way and it wont be finding it any time soon.

reply to post by freedom7

Why this quote is so important to understand is because it speaks volumes to a human condition, and lends credibility to the gospel accounts in the bible being 100% factual.

No, I'm pretty sure you shot your whole thread in the foot. See, it only takes one liar to inspire a thousand men. There's no telling which of the men or women who never martyred themselves might have started the lie.

reply to post by freedom7


I can't see how this suggests that the Bible is 100% correct, but I'm sure you didn't quite mean that every passage was literally true. That book enjoys over 300 modifications and reprints over hundreds of years. But that's ok.

You mentioned something about our survival instinct being strong, and on that point I would have to disagree, in a way.

I would agree that an individual, survival response is still strong, but our true instincts are completely subdued. There's also a cliche out there that says, "There's safety in numbers." If our survival instincts were strong, and true to nature, every time someone pulled out a firearm and started randomly shooting up the place, that person should not survive very long.

What happens when a lone gunman initiates an ambush in a crowd of people? They run away. And as a result, many more people die than necessary. In the infantry, I learned that proper reaction to ambush is to turn and attack, and attack hard. It's the only tactical response that gives a unit a chance at survival.

Were our human survival instincts correct, and we cared as much about our race as we do ourselves, is every swinging richard in the room without a limp dogpiles that person and tears him apart like starving dogs. Then, only two or three people have to die instead of 15 or 16.

This would actually occur as stated if everyone on the planet just gave a little bit more of a # about everyone else than they did themselves. In fact, if everyone cared just one percent more about others than they did themselves, no one on this planet would ever want for anything.

Don't mean to derail the topic, but I think this topic really is about sacrifice, and how in the end, sacrifice conserves and leaves more for everyone.

reply to post by freedom7


I imagine that throughout history, there have been people who have died for their religious beliefs and not renounced that belief in the face of death/torture -- across many religions, not just Christianity.

People will die for their loved ones oftentimes.

Some will die for their country or their ideals.

reply to post by Mon1k3r


I starred your post for your words on "if everyone just cared 1% more about other people" but your attempt to show relation to the OP's mention of the apostles' sacrifice of their lives for holding true to their beliefs in Jesus to a mad gunman in a crowd isn't even slightly close in similarity in my mind.

A gunman in a crowd shooting randomly resulting in death and persecution for a specific belief resulting in death/sacrifice are not the same or comparable, for me at least.

six67seven


I starred your post for your words on "if everyone just cared 1% more about other people" but your attempt to show relation to the OP's mention of the apostles' sacrifice of their lives for holding true to their beliefs in Jesus to a mad gunman in a crowd isn't even slightly close in similarity in my mind.

Thanks, and yeah, my post has absolutely nothing to do with the OP, and for that I apologize.

SQUIRREL!!!

Someone's willingness to die for their beliefs doesn't mean what they believe is right. I would willingly die for what I believe in if it came to that but I don't believe Jesus died for my or anyone else's sins. Muslims die for their beliefs every day, that doesn't mean their beliefs are true. All religions have their martyrs, not just Christianity.

Also, there were nearly 40 years between Jesus dying and the first gospel being written, 40 years of Rome and its army capturing, persecuting, and killing thousands of Christians. How can we know the gospel contains the same message as what those early Christians died for?

The gospels could have easily been added to or even completely fabricated within those 40 years and we'd never know. The authorship of each gospel wasn't attributed to their respective authors until the second century, meaning we have no idea for sure if they were written by eyewitnesses or not either.

For all we know Christians could have been spreading a true message when Rome came in and began killing them and as they killed them they found manuscripts with this true message. Within those 40 years of persecuting, they collected enough teachings to fabricate a story around them so they wrote the gospels attributing them to supposed followers of Jesus when in actuality it was his enemies doing the writing.

I have no doubt in my mind the gospels were tampered with if not completely fabricated. Rome's history of conquering then hijacking the ideas of those they conquered should make it obvious to anyone.

reply to post by freedom7


I'm going to have to speak out against you here.

Whether or not someone will die for a lie depends on the stakes behind the lie. If you are talking about culture where it is important to save face and perception is everything, then truth falls by the wayside if it allowed the important perception to be preserved, and people will die to preserve that even if it means dying for a lie.

reply to post by Mon1k3r


Convincing people to lead a selfless lifestyle teaches them to expect less, and that reduces their survival instinct. Of course, we lie to ourselves all the time, so I'm not sure...

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Also, there were nearly 40 years between Jesus dying and the first gospel being written, 40 years of Rome and its army capturing, persecuting, and killing thousands of Christians. How can we know the gospel contains the same message as what those early Christians died for?

Not to mention the tens of thousands of Jewish souls being rounded up and systematically slaughtered by the Romans. According to Josephus, 6000 Jews were crucified outside the city walls during the Siege of Jerusalem alone! There was no truth or lie that could have saved them.