The Desert Cross, Symbols of The Knights of Templar Unearthed

reply to post by GezinhoKiko


Okay, $4.92 is much better.

Thanks for the link.

I was watching the video. Is it basically what's in the book?

reply to post by sled735


In a way yes, but the book goes into greater detail.
The video will wet your appetite for the book.

KilgoreTrout
reply to post by sled735

 

I think that Char-Lee may be on the right track, having watched/listened to the documentary I am somewhat dubious about the conclusions that Wolter reached, but am inclined to believe that the discovery was somewhat genuine...I just don't think that Wolter investigated it in the fullest way possible and I don't think his 'science' is 'all that'...but one possibility worth thinking about is that while the Templars used the Cross of Lorraine, so did the Jesuits...

In the Spring of 1687, a Jesuit missionary named Father Eusebio Francisco Kino lived and worked with the native Americans in the area called the Pimería Alta, or "Upper Pima Country," which presently is located in the areas between the Mexican state of Sonora and the state of Arizona in the United States. During Father Eusebio Kino's stay in the Pimería Alta, he founded over twenty missions in eight mission districts. In Arizona, unlike Mexico, missionization proceeded slowly.

Father Kino founded missions San Xavier and San Gabriel at the Piman communities of Bac and Guevavi along the Santa Cruz River.

en.wikipedia.org...

French Jesuit missionaries and settlers to the New World carried the Cross of Lorraine c. 1750-1810. The symbol was said to have helped the missionaries to convert the native peoples they encountered, because the two armed cross resembled existing local imagery.[5]

en.wikipedia.org...

Just as interesting...in my opinion...

If they found a cross made in the 1600s then decided to add stuff to it to make the find fit there beliefs is very believable. Since you see other stuff that was found later that just seems amateurish. Meaning they were not as good at smelting lead. Especially that sword if someone took the time to make it it would have been ceremonial and it would have been alot better.

This is one of the reasons I love the Propaganda stories. Wolters work on the Kensington Runestone.

archive.archaeology.org...

Scott Wolter, a forensic geologist who has studied the Kensington Runestone, analyzed the students' handiwork before the affidavit was released. Wolter says he was troubled by nagging doubts about the runes before Gade and Schulman came forward, but the revelation of the hoax doesn't make him happy. "I can understand what they did," he says. "I was in college, too--you're nuts half the time--but these were graduate students. They should have known better."

Gade, now chair of the Germanic studies department at Indiana University, is unrepentant. "I'm sorry that people spent their time and money on the stone, but it was clearly a fake."

Schulman is the one with the real interesting history. The history goes to her father. See he was one of the very first sociologist who advised lawyers in the selection of jurors. One of his clients is interesting. Gen. William C. Westmoreland in his libel case against CBS.

Jay Schulman, Expert on Juries/Obituaries section 1987
www.nytimes.com...

Gen. William C. Westmoreland
en.wikipedia.org...

Westmoreland versus CBS: The Uncounted Enemy[edit]
Mike Wallace interviewed Westmoreland for the CBS special The Uncounted Enemy: A Vietnam Deception. The documentary, shown on January 23, 1982, and prepared largely by CBS producer George Crile III, alleged that Westmoreland and others had deliberately underestimated Viet Cong troop strength during 1967 in order to maintain U.S. troop morale and domestic support for the war. Westmoreland filed a lawsuit against CBS.
In Westmoreland v. CBS, Westmoreland sued Wallace and CBS for libel, and a lengthy legal process began. While the trial was in progress, Westmoreland suddenly settled with CBS for an apology, no more than CBS had originally offered. Some contend that Judge Leval's instructions to the jury over what constituted "actual malice" to prove libel convinced Westmoreland's lawyers that he was certain to lose.[14][15] Others point out that the settlement occurred after two of Westmoreland's former intelligence officers, Major General Joseph McChristian and Colonel Gains Hawkins, testified to the accuracy of the substantive allegations of the broadcast, which were that Westmoreland ordered changes in intelligence reports on Viet Cong troop strengths for political reasons. Disagreements persist about the appropriateness of some of the methods of CBS's editors.[16]
A deposition by McChristian indicates that his organization developed improved intelligence on the number of irregular Viet Cong combatants shortly before he left Vietnam on a regularly scheduled rotation. The numbers troubled Westmoreland, who feared that the press would not understand them. He did not order them changed, but instead did not include the information in reporting to Washington, which in his view was a decision that the data was not appropriate to report.
Based on later analysis of the information from all sides, it appears clear that Westmoreland could not sustain a libel suit because CBS's principal allegation was that he had caused intelligence officers to suppress facts. Westmoreland's anger was caused by the implication of the broadcast that his intent was fraudulent and that he ordered others to lie.
During the acrimonious trial, Mike Wallace was hospitalized for depression, and despite the legal conflict separating the two, Westmoreland and his wife sent him flowers. Wallace's memoir is generally sympathetic to Westmoreland, although he makes it clear he disagreed with him on issues surrounding the Vietnam War and the Nixon Administration's policies in Southeast Asia.

Conspiracies wrapped in conspiracies?

reply to post by Panic2k11


Thank you kindly for the information panic! It has been awhile since I had looked into the history of Knights Templar, my introduction to it was through Jim Marrs, Rule by Secrecy. I thought that the church was equally as threatened by the Templars as they gained in power and willingly persecuted them, however it appears that it was due to the King Phillip.

I have not watched the OP in its entirety, it just reminded me of the info that Scott Wolters had on the Kensington Rune, which seemed like it was pretty concrete, but as has been pointed there seems to be some problems with his evidence on Ancient America.

So I suppose I have a few questions for you, What is the relationship of the Knights Templars to the Free Masons, if there is any. Do you believe that the Templars were benevolent? and that perhaps they have hidden themselves amongst the free masons? Again thank you for attempting to help my confusion

elementalgrove
reply to post by Panic2k11

 

Thank you kindly for the information panic! It has been awhile since I had looked into the history of Knights Templar, my introduction to it was through Jim Marrs, Rule by Secrecy. I thought that the church was equally as threatened by the Templars as they gained in power and willingly persecuted them, however it appears that it was due to the King Phillip.

I have not watched the OP in its entirety, it just reminded me of the info that Scott Wolters had on the Kensington Rune, which seemed like it was pretty concrete, but as has been pointed there seems to be some problems with his evidence on Ancient America.

So I suppose I have a few questions for you, What is the relationship of the Knights Templar's to the Free Masons, if there is any. Do you believe that the Templar's were benevolent? and that perhaps they have hidden themselves among the free masons? Again thank you for attempting to help my confusion

Well there is no historical connection at all only speculations. We know all the Templar were not captured or killed when they were attacked by King Philip of France and Pope Clement V on Friday the 13th 1307.(now you know why Friday the 13th became associated with bad luck) However they were on the run rumors put them in Scotland to help Robert the Bruce win Scotland's independence from England in 1314.This is the whole speculation about Rosslyn Chapel but no evidence has been found to prove this theory.However that being said there are a lot of similarities between Freemasons and Knights Templar's. Now we do know the Knights Templar's didnt found freemasonry but there are some similarities the question becomes did they copy them or did Templar's hide within the Freemasons .Im guessing some of both since it was the Freemasons themselves that tried to tie themselves to the Knights.The more mysterious part is where did there treasure go this was a major motivation for King Philip yet he never got it. The other thing is after a year of arrests and prosecutions there probably wasnt that many Templar's left to be honest.

What truly set there place in history though Jacques de Molay, Templar Grand Master, Geoffroi de Charney, Master of Normandy after being held in prison for 7 years still refused to renounce the order. And then even March 1314, when, on a scaffold in front of Notre Dame they tried to spare the two if they would renounce the Templar's instead the two renounced the cardinals passing judgement on them. Well Phillip got mad decided he wasnt going to let the church handle it and immediately decides to burn them at the stake. Now this was a slow process but even going through this torture they refused all offers of pardon for retraction, and bearing their torment with a composure which won for them the reputation of martyrs among the people.

So to sum it up were Templar's in the Freemasons maybe but i think more of it was they wanted the recognition and respect the people gave the Templar's.

reply to post by dragonridr


Dragonridr! Thank you for the summary! I find myself liking the Templars more and more, also it makes me believe that they have been the victims of a disinformation campaign by TPTB, hence them being the bad guys in the Assassins creed trilogy, getting an entire new generation to consciously or unconsciously believe that the Templars were evil and oppressive when in fact it was the opposite and it could be said that the "Assassins" are nothing other than that secret hand that oppress's the many.

In regards to the question of where did the treasure go, that is a question we may never know. I do vaguely remember a theory about the Nazi's capturing the gold, but I do not recall that in any way shape or form enough to the point of going into it.

One of the other aspects that I am curious about in the whole Templar/Mason history, is what role does the Jesuits play in all of this, which would be the topic of another thread I suppose, I must say that I am very happy to have started posting on here after about a year of reading through various topics! I love that we are able to share our ideas, thoughts, and research. It helps greatly in search of the answers that we seek, was gonna say truth, however it seems that the truth is something we all create our own version of in this wild world.

elementalgrove
reply to post by dragonridr

 

One of the other aspects that I am curious about in the whole Templar/Mason history, is what role does the Jesuits play in all of this, which would be the topic of another thread I suppose, I must say that I am very happy to have started posting on here after about a year of reading through various topics! I love that we are able to share our ideas, thoughts, and research. It helps greatly in search of the answers that we seek, was gonna say truth, however it seems that the truth is something we all create our own version of in this wild world.

Here 'ya go. I have a thread on them also: www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by sled735


Thank you kindly sled! I will check out the info provided!

reply to post by elementalgrove


You should take a look into the open book Remembering the Templars and even contribute any findings or insights anyone can contribute, even non "expert" on the subject.

As for the link between the Knights Templars to the Free Masons there hasn't been any direct connection found beyond the symbology, note that the Free Masons aren't defined by their Christian beliefs in fact there is an expectation that as higher as you go in the practice you will get more distant from Abrahamic beliefs. Masons at least at lower levels do believe in a God but the indoctrination is towards recognizing the power of man and his works. So theological there is not a direct relation that can be made between the two organizations.

Now if we leave religious concepts out the next direct parallel is as a secret organization, all secret organizations share many points amongst themselves even if they pursue different goals and policies.

Do you believe that the Templars were benevolent?

In the light of their age, to a degree they started ok but as an organization they clearly started to get corrupted, and this is not just a problem with the Templars even the Jesuits incurred on this type of behavior by attempting to acquire geopolitical might. You must understand that the Church was the first multinational corporation and it actively pursued the monopoly over faith. In our standards today all this organizations where bad, but in that time they exerted a force against other similar forces and during the dark ages organized religions was what kept the light alive.

they have hidden themselves amongst the free masons?

This is a strong possibility that a fringe group of the Templars armed with some funds and the structural know how reshaped it as the Masonry the oldest Masonic rites seems to indicate so. For instance the first King of Portugal was a Templar and never complied with the papal order, just the contrary, the Ships that fists started to discover the world had the Templar crosses on their sail...

Panic2k11
in fact there is an expectation that as higher as you go in the practice you will get more distant from Abrahamic beliefs. Masons at least at lower levels do believe in a God but the indoctrination is towards recognizing the power of man and his works.

In case you are interested, that is not true at all. It's one of the many lies that the church has made up to drive men away from masonry and back into the folds of the 10% givers.

The whole "higher up" thing is garbage. Please look into our structure for verification.

network dude

Panic2k11
in fact there is an expectation that as higher as you go in the practice you will get more distant from Abrahamic beliefs. Masons at least at lower levels do believe in a God but the indoctrination is towards recognizing the power of man and his works.

In case you are interested, that is not true at all. It's one of the many lies that the church has made up to drive men away from masonry and back into the folds of the 10% givers.

The whole "higher up" thing is garbage. Please look into our structure for verification.

True a lot of people dont realize how bad the vatican went after the secret societies.Mostly out of fear when you start keeping secrets you dont like the idea of people in your organization doing the same. The things the vatican accused the Templars of is well shocking ranging from beastiaility to necrophilia. None of that was true they were men of god who devoted there life to protecting the church. Well after they were gone the next threat was freemasons.Now freemasons threat is still christians who believe them to be evil.

reply to post by network dude


Well I had hope that anyone would understand that all organizations provide a front to the outside, the "secret" ones even more. I think it should be obvious to anyone that any organization that in the Western world would claims to be strictly opposed to the Church especially before the end of the cold war would get in trouble. Even now it can be troublesome as it calls too much attention from the opposition/competition...

The whole "higher up" thing is garbage.

One needs to be very closed minded to think that there is any validity to that statement. Power structures have always higher ups, all organizations are power structures. Now say to me with a straight face that all the top levels of an organization are as valuable as the lower rankings and attempt to explain to me why so and you would see the problem with that logic. Masonry clearly (and self proclaimed) uses strictly enforced pyramid structure of power/knowledge and control.

reply to post by Panic2k11


One only need to understand the structure of Freemasonry to see just how silly the whole "higher up" thing is. But please, don't let my simple fist hand knowledge get in the way of a great conspiracy. (to be honest, I think we get more folks coming to masonry BECAUSE of all the lies that are spread. It seems the smart ones can see through all the silly stuff, and they are the one's we are interested in anyway.) You wouldn't want to try to take over the world with boneheads.


It does kind of make me smile to see the very same lies told about the Templars are the one's repeated about masonry, and most folks just lap it up like a luke warm soup. I guess it's easier to swallow when you don't have to use the brain.


edit to add:
Please don't let me derail this thread anymore than I already have. If you are truly interested in the subject, please start a thread and I will be happy to answer anything I can there.


I think the Templars have kept their group alive and still hold their secrets. I know that they don't use the whole of masonry, although our group would be a good place to find a fit to the Templar ways. I would classify them as a true "secret society" in this day and age as nobody knows of their existence, but those who studied them can clearly see that there is no reason why they would completely disappear leaving the possible treasures and knowledge lost.

We do have degrees that teach lessons using stories of the Knights Templar, and even degrees named after them, but only paying homage to their existence.

reply to post by network dude

It does kind of make me smile to see the very same lies told about the Templars are the one's repeated about masonry

No they aren't, the Templars even received a Papal indulgence by Pope Clement V. A treatment that you will probably never see in regards to any stated Mason. The antagonism between the Church and the Masonry is as old as Masonry itself (it is intrinsic to its establishment, there are plenty of books, letters and public news about this fact, from both sides of the battle field)...

reply to post by Panic2k11


you just haven't been to enough mason bashing web sites. I assure you, all the same claims exist, all the way down to worshiping Balphomet and spitting on a cross. But I do agree that we probably wont be seeing an apology from the Vatican anytime soon.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

Nice catch. You saved me some time.

reply to post by sled735

Yeah, lets not have facts get in the way.

reply to post by Panic2k11

The connection between the Templars and the Masons is only a theory as there exist no documents to prove anything concrete. This is something even talked about among Masonic scholars.

Freemasonry is not against the Catholic Church, you have it backwards. We allow men of any faith to join and that includes Catholics. Nor do we have "humanistic" goals or plans to usurp the authority of any government.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite

reply to post by Panic2k11

This isn't true. As you move higher there is no assault against or encouragement to abandon one's faith.

What constitutes "higher level" vs "low level"? You really are misguided if you think any of this.



You should really read "Compasses and the Cross".

reply to post by Panic2k11

How is it you presume to know more than actual members?

We have our hierarchy, but its not what you think it is. Nor is it as authoritarian as you make it out to be.