UFOs and Materialism Don't Mix

BlueMule

badgerprints

BlueMule
reply to post by EA006

 

What's your point?

Maybe his point is that Commercial aircraft don't have near miss incidents with philosophy.

Hi. That's a straw-man you have there.

MISHLOVE: One of the things that Jung pointed out in his book is that we must pay attention to the research that Dr. J.B. Rhine was doing at that time at Duke University in ESP and psychokinesis, and that even if UFOs had a physical reality, could be photographed or could be weighed and measured, that they still might in some manner be projections of the human mind.

McKENNA: Oh yes, this is an important point to make, which the flying saucer people are forever misunderstanding, and that is that saying the flying saucer is a psychic object does not mean it is not a physical object. Jung in Mysterium Coniunctionis is at great pains to say that the realm of the psychic and the realm of the physical meet in a strange kind of never-never land that we have yet to create the intellectual tools to explore. This is where the mystery of synchronicity is going to come to rest, the mystery of all kinds of paranormal activity on the part of human beings, and the mystery of the flying saucer.

www.intuition.org...

edit on 5-1-2014 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Great,
Jung, Mishlov, "never never land" .... That's, quite bluntly, a truckload of mule puckey.
You can play those games all day but it still comes down to the fact that some of these things exhibit physical characteristics. So, they must be recognized in those terms.

If they are also metaphysical then that's fine to think about in any way you or Jung might like, but to pretend that a physical object is not a physical object is simple evasion.

Not trying to be too rude. I like some of your ideas but to ignore the physical aspect of the phenomena is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Hey B.M.

This aspect to the UFO bag o' fun will garner tons of flack, as usual, due to the murky, fledgling aspect to sciences' understanding of ... erm, reality... when related to awareness and the possible lack of separation between the two, i.e. mind and matter.

I keep harping on the possibility that really advanced science would possibly incorporate things we now consider "mystic."

People who have had personal, experiential "proof" of mystical aspects to existence are at a disadvantage when trying to prove that to the "liminally disadvantaged."

And that's not to discount that the UFO thang is totally mental ... heh (double meaning intended).

badgerprints
I like some of your ideas but to ignore the physical aspect of the phenomena is like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I'm not ignoring anything. The physical aspect of UFO phenomena is fully accounted for. Just not in the way that materialists would like.

Baddogma

People who have had personal, experiential "proof" of mystical aspects to existence are at a disadvantage when trying to prove that to the "liminally disadvantaged."

I occasionally like a challenge.

Baddogma
Hey B.M.

This aspect to the UFO bag o' fun will garner tons of flack, as usual, due to the murky, fledgling aspect to sciences' understanding of ... erm, reality...

Perhaps this Erm Reality of which you speak will be embraced once science frees itself from the shackles of actual reality.

In all seriousness, I have experienced a "paranormal" experience or two. I am a fairly intelligent person, and even at the time, went through a laundry list of possibilities AND probabilities as to what could have happened.

To this day, I do not have an explanation as to what I experienced on those occasions.

I, however, refuse to join what I like to refer to as the "woo-woo" crowd.

There are facts, theories, experiences, and evidence. These things are not the same.

Exposure to aliens and or UFO's may enhance our perception of things. That is about it.

There is nothing materialistic, spiritual, shamanistic, world-tree-oriented, psychic, or otherwise esoteric about aliens and or UFO's.

These are merely ideas projected upon things. Or even worse, ideas projected upon ideas.

reply to post by draknoir2


"Perhaps this Erm Reality of which you speak will be embraced once science frees itself from the shackles of actual reality."

You're being sarcastic about science then not being science and running off into fanciful mental suppositions... OR
you, I suppose, could mean once science frees itself from any notion of a real reality being anything more than a mental construct...or, well, that view comes from both quantum physics and mystical experience... (trails off... then finds train of thought) but then all our views of how reality works must, or should, be supported by a scientific process, or at least ... well, depending on one's relative understanding of the possibly existing framework... er (loses thought train again in infinitely regressive circular logic) ?

Eh, I'm going to go bask in the sun ...

zeroBelief
I, however, refuse to join what I like to refer to as the "woo-woo" crowd.

Well of course! What would the neighbors think?

Looks to me like you're controlled by social mechanisms.

AliceBleachWhite

What UFOlogy requires is for non-scientists to stop saying what UFOlogy needs.

Star for you Alice!

Baddogma
reply to post by draknoir2

 

"Perhaps this Erm Reality of which you speak will be embraced once science frees itself from the shackles of actual reality."
You're being sarcastic about science then not being science and running off into fanciful mental suppositions... OR
you, I suppose, could mean once science frees itself from any notion of a real reality being anything more than a mental construct...or, well, that view comes from both quantum physics and mystical experience... (trails off... then finds train of thought) but then all our views of how reality works must, or should, be supported by a scientific process, or at least ... well, depending on one's relative understanding of the possibly existing framework... er (loses thought train again in infinitely regressive circular logic) ?

Eh, I'm going to go bask in the sun ...

You are free to suppose.

My reality is -20 and snow, so I envy your Erm Reality in at least one respect.

Define spiritual aliens plz.

U talking about beings that are naturally god like with that manipulate the fabric of reality with just a simple thought, that many of the new agers used to, or still believe, and cling on to. The usual planet size ships with no nuts or bolts, that are just made out pure cosmic love. That come and go from whatever backward plane their from, to this unpredictable reality that their worshipers hate so much, that would give a crap about what they think about their gods, like it was Yah Weh,Allah, or any other god.

Or u talking about Flesh and blood beings, who have technology evolved to the point where it just mind bending for our perception of sciences to just understand. That wouldn't give a crap about what anybody thinks about them, and would just mimic mythologies or gossip, or the mythologies were somewhat correct in their own weird way.

As to where their patience is constantly tested.

reply to post by draknoir2


Yeah, my reality is a tad confused... or at least intentionally open ended.

Besides some economic drawbacks, lack of green and hellish spring, summers and falls, AZ IS pretty nice in winter, though.

reply to post by Specimen


Hi Spidey. :p

Maybe you should tell us what a spiritual alien is, given your experiences with Venom. Didn't you enter into a symbiotic relationship with it? Didn't it become a part of you, and you a part of it? Didn't it take its form from you? Venom is a somewhat accurate exaggeration of a "spiritual alien". Slightly distorted by the materialistic and sensationalistic nature of the comic-book mythology, of course. Just as the UFO phenomenon is distorted by materialism. One can compensate for the distortion with comparativism.

You might be surprised how much of the paranormal is behind the comic-book culture. That's not exactly something that your friendly neighborhood scientist is going to tell you about or even know about. Despite how many scientists were and are inspired by comics and sci-fi.

Ironic, really.

Mutants and Mystics: Science Fiction, Superhero Comics, and the Paranormal

@ 2:54 the transparency is observed. As one of the UFO go from left of tether to right mear 2:58 mark it appears to go below tether and shrink or moved a large distance down then up towards camera to change its visible scale reference. Don't know if affected by field.

I posted this data to share how non material these ufo appear but are physically observable interacting with the em field generated that attracted them. Whatever they are... @ 3:45 described as star like things and things swimming in the foreground "illuminated debris"


NAMASTE*******

Ophiuchus 13

@ 2:54 the transparency is observed. As one of the UFO go from left of tether to right mear 2:58 mark it appears to go below tether and shrink or moved a large distance down then up towards camera to change its visible scale reference. Don't know if affected by field.

I posted this data to share how non material these ufo appear but are physically observable interacting with the em field generated that attracted them. Whatever they are... @ 3:45 described as star like things and things swimming in the foreground "illuminated debris"

NAMASTE*******

edit on 1/5/14 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

LOL at you posting a video of out of focus ice particles UFO researcher Dr. Bruce Maccabee and others debunked thoroughly.

This is what passes for evidence among the New Age/spiritual UFOs crowd.

Pay Greer to take you on a tour of an invisible spaceship but don't expect me to buy a ticket.

From Dr. Maccabee:

I have done some experimentation which could have an impact on the analysis of the tether video. In particular, I have studied the images formed by tiny particles close to the camera when brilliantly lit, in this case by a flash, but in the case of the shuttle video, lit by the sun. It turns out that very tiny particles can make very large, generally round, images whch have the characteristics of "diffuseness," often with a strange (diffraction) pattern running through it and (sometimes a hole in the middle if the image forming optics is of a certain type).. If you go to brumac.8k.com you will see a paper about "orbs". These are "flash orbs" detected only when a flash is used with a normal flash camera. (This des not refer to self-luminous orbs.) If you replace the flash with the sun (a very bright source) and imagine small particles close (cm to a meter or so) to the lens, you can see a comparison between these images and those of the tether video. This also explains how an orb" could seem to be behind an object. If the light from the orb particle is less than the light from the distant object (satellite in th tether case) the orb image will seem to disappear where the orb image overlaps the bright image. This makes it appear that the orb object (particle) passed behind the bright object.

and

Incidently, please don't ask for detailed analyses of the space shuttle "UFOs" that are
round "discs, often with a "notch" in one side and almost always with a hole in the center
and brightness "structure" throughout the luminous area. These "objects" are most likely
to be ice crystals traveling close to the camera and therefore severely out of focus. Even the
famous "tether satellite" object (that seems to pass behind the tether satellite after the
tether satellite had broken free and traveled away from the shuttle) is most likely a result of
tiny objects out of focus combined with brightness saturation of the CCD detector by the
solar reflection from the. tether satellite.

That wasn't information from a mystic or a crystal ball or trance channeller. That was information from an optical physicist who is also a UFO investigator.

Science is a way of preventing us from fooling ourselves.

reply to post by JadeStar


Hey JadeStar. When you're through cheerleading for Alice and poisoning the well, maybe you could answer my question.

BlueMule
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Hey Jadestar. When you're through cheerleading for Alice and poisoning the well, maybe you could answer my question.

What question is that?

JadeStar

BlueMule
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Hey Jadestar. When you're through cheerleading for Alice and poisoning the well, maybe you could answer my question.

What question is that?

You'll find it in my reply to your first post in this thread.

Comics books and sci-fi are the Modern Day scripts of society.

Lol. Idk, the Venom suit has its pros and cons. It would be symbiotic, so it would basically become a part of you, so it would be like steroids, except without the withdrawal. However, at the same, Peter Parker ended up finding out that it the symbiote was actually feeding on him at the same time, plus increased aggression. Also the thing has a mind of its own.

Then Eddie Brock got it, took his time stalking spidey, and ended up having a stronger bond with Eddie due to their common hatred of Peter Parker. Then some time later, the suit starts eating away at Eddie, so he has to eat human brains or chocolate to stay sane.

I wouldn't call Venom spiritual, just symbiotic.

As for Aliens, I think it would psionic, so a good example would be "The Protoss". They are psionically empowered, and their will power interacts with their technology. Also, if disposition is good enough, they wouldn't hurt some for no reason.

BlueMule

MarsIsRed
If you want me to change my mind on the subject it's easy. Just provide one iota of evidence.

What, that's it? One iota and you'll change your mind? That's easy. Why didn't you just say so in the first place? :p

www.deanradin.com...

I'm looking forward to hearing from you when you've changed your mind.

PS - the MDC is merely a publicity stunt

edit on 5-1-2014 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

The very first paper I picked was "Using Neuroimaging to Resolve the Psi Debate - Samuel T. Moulton and Stephen M. Kosslyn".

Results:

The results support the null hypothesis that psi does not exist. The brains of our participants—as a group and individually—reacted to psi and non-psi stimuli in a statistically indistinguishable manner.

Out of fairness, I looked at several others. Basically, in some cases there's a *slight* increase compared what you'd expect with random data, but still within expected statistical ranges.


When I say evidence - show me someone that can correctly 'guess' a set of images every time. That would constitute proof.