NHS a National Treasure?

You are trying to defend that which is indefensible.

It is pointless trying to convince you that the OP was based on a broad range of facts reported widely by many across the whole of the NHS.
Deaths into the thousands - fact.
Reasons not just simply attributable to a lack of resources - fact.

I don't really care about your views and feelings towards me or your various suggestions. I do care that you have an obvious tendency to ignore that which suits you in relation to 3rd party statements about treatment in the NHS, but then rereading your posts doesn't make things any clearer as to why, apart maybe from an arrogant and dismissive stance that you adopt with your protestations about you and your colleagues.

There is the old adage of course that as Hamlet is quoted as saying "me thinks thou dost protest too much".

I think we should now agree to disagree and differ and let ATS continue without further haranguing on either side, it has obviously descended below the level of acceptable intelligent debate.

reply to post by Shuftystick


yes lets agree to disagree,

I think the NHS is a national treasure.

you think it is a national disgrace

And to be honest my last comment was pretty darn awesome so i will keep this one short.

have fun reading your nursing text books!!!

Shuftystick
There are still a few true angels left in the NHS system but they are few and far between. They are completely outnumbered by poor managers and too many administrators.

Patients do not get the simple humanity based treatment that they should and face a lack of respect and even a level of mistreatment that 3rd world countries do not exhibit.

NHS Mr Cameron, a National Disgrace not a National Treasure.

I could not agree with you more.
I haven't read through the whole thread but this is very true.
I got out of hospital today having been in for just over 4 days... and some of the things I saw were very eye opening.
I've used the NHS all of my life, like many people, and have never had any issues really.... but the NHS is *****d right now. Whether it's the Tories or what....I don't know but the level of care, equipment, understaffed, overpopulated, lack of empathy, conditions, hygiene.
There really are some issues.

This was the John Radcliffe in Oxford, there are FAR worse hospitals to be in.

I wont go into details as I'm shattered at the moment, but some of the things just beggar belief.

Something needs to change, or the NHS is in Trouble.


I will add some details because it just seems like an empty rant otherwise.

Nurses having to use medical tape to hold together the blood pressure monitor because there was only one on the ward on the time, a ward of 40-50 people.

Not answering bells, ignoring people calling, asking for help.

Unable to move people to ICU or specialist wards because no beds.

Doctors not visiting for 2-3 days and being told every day that they would be here.

Food ranged from decent to absolutely vile and wouldn't feed to a dog.

Communication.... this on so many levels.

reply to post by blupblup


I genuinely thank you for taking the time and obvious effort to post given your experience and obvious need to convalesce.

Don't however let yourself get drawn into lengthy, repetitive postings trying to convince some of this lot that you are actually telling anything remotely resembling the truth.

With a bit of luck more like you will post and we can then put this one to rest and start another on how to improve the NHS from its current position, can't believe I just said that?!

Might leave it till a later date to give my grey matter a rest from things...

Hope you continue to improve and don't have to be subject to NHS again too soon.

reply to post by Shuftystick




I just added some of the things I saw to the post above, there are several harrowing and jaw-dropping (IMO) things missing that I saw but I just wrote a huge letter and sent to several places and I'm knackered.
I don't want to just post that letter in this thread because it's personal.

Shuftystick
reply to post by blupblup

 

Hope you continue to improve and don't have to be subject to NHS again too soon.

TRUST me.... that is not happening, I ****ing said to my friends/family I would rather just suffer or die than go back LOL

It's as much to do with 4 days of sleep deprivation than just the conditions/staff, but still.

F*** that.

reply to post by blupblup


I think we're missing a large point here

The NHS is or at least was a national treasure

But since the borders opened it's become an international rape victim.

Cody

reply to post by cody599


Dunno about the immigration aspect but Trust me mate... I've NEVER had a bad word to say against the NHS.
They are the reason I'm alive from a baby... I've defended them all my life.

But my experience is NOT an isolated case, speaking to the staff myself, reading things recently, from all sides, hearing stories, seeing the cuts.

It's ****ed mate.

As of 2013/14.... it needs sorting out, very quickly.

reply to post by cody599


Yes, I suppose that is the true other side of the coin really...

But immigrants, legal as, under EU Laws, are entitled to whatever they can obtain, as are genuine refugees, and it is a drain on resources but it does not lead to all the deaths or mistreatment.
Damn, now where's that little Bête Noir, just when I need it...?!

Not fit for purpose, as i stated in my previous post. tick box mentality which doesn't work. Wife was diagnosed with IBS, this went on for years, back and forward to A&E, consultant appoints continually changed, to the point where it was moved to beyond a year from the first appoint. Turns out, not IBS but gall stones, why wasn't it picked up for 5 years ? because she didn't fall in the 'usual catchment'.

Brother in law, ill for months back and forward to hosp and doc's, tests and antibio's, would never really clear. Went away on holiday and fell ill, taken to hospital, half hour after first test run, they found the problem, a parasite. Turns out the NHS didn't test for that, as its a third world parasite and again it didn't fit their tick box mentality. Hello, we live in a global society, yet they didn't think to test for parasites.

Nan went in for a routine mole removal, came out in a box thanks to MRSA.

So yes, i'm sure some have had some wonderful treatment on the NHS, my experience of it, is as an utter shambles. Thankfully of only ever had to spend 1 night under the 'care' of the NHS, and that was when i was 7, even that still gives me nightmares

I was having sleep loss and migraine trying to get my head around the debunkers on this post regarding the NHS until I tripped over this little bit of fiction, lies, manufactured media hype, call it what you will, but it is from "The Beast" itself...

Ironically it is titled...wait for it...

REDUCING UNAVOIDABLE DEATHS IN HOSPITALS

The NHS Institute staff have been working with a number of partners to identify a set of interventions that work to reduce avoidable deaths in UK hospitals. They have learned that such interventions could save up to 10,000 lives per year in England.

Their partners include:
Three acute hospitals who worked on the 'move your mortality dot' programme in the former Modernisation Agency
Eight hospitals which were field test sites in a dissemination and spread programme sponsored by the Modernisation Agency
Walsall hospital, who have been working on reducing mortality since 2001, suported by Professor Sir Brian Jarman, following the first publication of mortality league tables by Dr Foster
The Health Foundation, whose four 'Safer Patients Initative' trusts in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales have been using tools and techniques from the Institute of Healthcare Improvement in the USA to reduce mortality.
- See more at: www.institute.nhs.uk...

Read the wording carefully, it makes for an enlightening read and for me at least shows that the NHS has not only recognised and accepted the scale of the problem, it is proactively doing something about it.

I have no interest in the political or social reasoning behind this change, it is a significant step change for a monolith such as the NHS and shows that whatever the reasons, common sense sometimes prevails. The challenge for the employees of the NHS and those off the payroll will be to take this forward. It's a start on a long trail and should be given the support from staff and patients, relatives and politicians that it deserves. I am pleased to state openly for the benefit of all affected by the NHS, it looks as though the Nadir has been passed. The fact that this ongoing programme was directly attributed to the Keogh Report speaks volumes.

Whilst the media sometimes uses headlines for its circulation figures the astute will note the slow progressive change led maybe by the likes of the Guardian and one or two other broadsheets to encompass the electronic media and the internet itself.
The speed with which social networking and other sites move information and fact has meant that normal media has had to begin to adapt or simply die out, sorry, cease to exist!

If it does nothing but silence the denial of the scale of the problem, let alone it's existence and introduce accountability along with the care standards that should be present 100% of the time then that is a positive start and I applaud it as such.

Wow, and I didn't even have to read the Daily Mail to find that report on the programme!


One thought for the debunkers, "evidence is evidence, no matter how obtained, it is up to the Judge to decide upon the eligibility of it, and, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence".

reply to post by Shuftystick


I wasn't giving you lies or fiction, just an anecdotal story of my 12 years under NHS care. I wasn't trying to debunk. I've seen the best and worst, but in my personal experience, it has been a lot more positive than negative. I guess having my condition, at my age has meant I may have received some preferential treatment over others, I don't believe that, but thats the only explanation I can think of for my exceptional care. I guess I've just been one of the lucky ones.

That's just my personal evidence for what its worth. I know it doesn't make as gruesome reading as the horror stories.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Whoa!
Shot in foot...collateral damage, friendly fire...

Post follows thread and not aimed at you please re-read and follow thread throughout from start it will all be as clear as day

The lies and fiction reference is a bit of pathos and sarcasm aimed at those that accused, intimated or alleged that I lied or put forward fiction or even I suppose was not placing facts in front of the forum.

If you are one of the many with positive experience/s of the NHS that's fine by me, speak as you find on ATS.

Apology for any offence etc.

reply to post by Shuftystick


I thought we were done with this but again you are grossly misinterpreting what you are reading

Reducing avoidable deaths in hospital has always been a big deal we are always looking at ways to reduce hospital mortality but improving on systems. Institute saying they have been testing out new patient safety initiatives that could save up to 10,000 lives a year does not mean that the NHS is killing 10,000 people a year through any kind of faults rather that there exist interventions which could further reduce hospital mortality and save up to 10,000 people should they be implemented. This is a sign of the progressive nature of the NHS right now we do operations for example that would have been unthinkable even 5 years ago because of the progressive nature and the desire to consistently improve care.

This is always happening and if you worked in the NHS (which you don't) you would know that ever few months someone else comes up with some bright idea to reduce hospital mortality and adverse events in hospital. For example a few years ago we never had STAR training which has improved how we deal with CVA's before that we had cleanliness champions programs that improved infection control. Almost every 6 months I am sent on some kind of course that is aimed at changing my practice with some new innovation to improve patient experience.

You have read one such innovation on Institute and have read into it that this is proof that the NHS is needlessly causing the deaths of 10,000 patients a year. Nothing could be further from the truth, what it means is that Institute have developed and tested out a series of interventions that if used on a national level have the potential to reduces hospital mortality but up to 10,000.

Which is grate news because it demonstrates that the NHS is progressive and responsive to changes in the health care industry and is dynamic enough to incorporate these changes and new discoveries to better patient care which could hopefully reduce deaths but up to 10,000

Again i would remind you that the Keogh report you keep rattling on about only looked at 14 hospitals out of the 350 with in the NHS.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Aaahhh, my little Bette Noire returns...

Still choosing to discount the obvious and selectively ignore postings that state facts about the NHS?

What part of REDUCING UNAVOIDABLE DEATHS don't you understand? You can't blame me for the headline title the NHS chose the damn thing! Are you holding me responsible for the reasons behind the report and it's content as well?

As for working in the NHS, let me make myself clear to save you repeating yourself, on this fact at least, I don't work in the NHS, got it? I have however 60'yrs of seeing its highs and lows and some disgraceful failures of care which I have already described, that gives me a right to speak on the state and reputation of the NHS, as a taxpayer I contribute, quite rightly to the running costs of the NHS, including your wages, that also gives me a right to speak in what the last time I went out the door or read the Daily Mail, is still a democracy. btw I also read the Guardian, Telegraph and if my youngest lets me have her copy, the Times, not as often as The Daily Mail, but then I can manage the Daily Mail crossword!

Improved Infection Control, well it could not have got much worse I suppose, so I will agree with you that it has improved, but unless I am mistaken, people are still uhhh, um, err., di, no, expiring, under NHS "care" as a result of infections caught in hospital. Or have you taken over the role of UK Coroner as well? The cause of death on many death certificates related to deaths whilst under NHS care for many families appears to have little to do with what they actually saw their deceased relatives die in front of their eyes from, or are they all lying as well in your "experience"?

Your next 2 rantings I dismiss by stating I have already posted that the worst appears to be over, i.e. past it's Nadir, or have you selectively chosen to ignore that fact as well?

As for your last item, the Keogh Report that you have chosen to mention, perhaps it should have looked at all 350 hospitals. I bet that would make the facts look a lot different to the crazy figures the biased press has been reporting before, during and since the report was published?

So, othersideofthecoin, how do you address the postings of other people on this thread that obviously report experiences of the NHS somewhat different to the picture you insist and maintain is your version of it? I spent almost 40 yrs in my sector experiencing far worse words than you use, plus violence, dangerous working conditions and life threatening hazards, threats to kill, PTSD, the stress of saving attempted suicides, road crash victims and seen death more than once. So, I don't for one moment believe that working in casualty (ER) for the USA, or indeed in the NHS in general is an easy option. People giving you grief for doing your job, at work, or within ATS will remain one of the issues facing people working in the public sector especially face to face with the public.

Oh yes, almost forgot, those 2 books that I won't gain any benefit from reading...

Nursing in Context (nice title that)
Ch6 p108 has a wee quote halfway down that goes like this...
"The NMC code of practice states that as a nurse or midwife, you: 'must act without delay if you believe that you! a colleague or anyone else may be putting someone at risk'.
Must be an overwhelming need for compulsory eyesight testing at the front line then?

Compassion, Caring and Communication
Ch3 p63 contains a final point within the chapter summary...
Raising any concerns related to poor-quality care.
Well, that would be a start I suppose.

Now, obviously I have not read either book in its entirety, which I confess I won't be doing as that would be unnecessary to obtain a flavour of what is contained therein.

I look forward to your next debunking attempt and diatribe with feigned interest.
There We Are Then!

reply to post by Shuftystick

Still choosing to discount the obvious and selectively ignore postings that state facts about the NHS?

Only because you continue to misinterpret what you are reading.

Case in point:

What part of REDUCING UNAVOIDABLE DEATHS don't you understand? You can't blame me for the headline title the NHS chose the damn thing! Are you holding me responsible for the reasons behind the report and it's content as well?

The title is actually..... Reducing AVOIDABLE Deaths In Hosptial, NOT unavoidable deaths as you have now twice stated.

As for working in the NHS, let me make myself clear to save you repeating yourself, on this fact at least,,I don't work in the NHS, got it?

Exactly you dont work in the NHS, so how can you possibly tell me I am wrong when i point out that you are getting some of this stuff totally wrong.

I have said this before but what you are doing is akin to telling the pilot of you plane to Spain that because you have played flight sim for a few hours you can fly the plane better than him.

you have members here who are workers with in the NHS trying to tell you how it really is and you are totally ignoring us with zero appreciation for our input, let alone the jobs that we do.

last time I went out the door or read the Daily Mail, is still a democracy. btw I also read the Guardian, Telegraph and if my youngest lets me have her copy, the Times, not as often as The Daily Mail, but then I can manage the Daily Mail crossword!

I do not care what news paper you read.

Improved Infection Control, well it could not have got much worse I suppose, so I will agree with you that it has improved, but unless I am mistaken, people are still uhhh, um, err., di, no, expiring, under NHS "care" as a result of infections caught in hospital.

I am going to use MRSA as a example for now.

quite often you will read in the daily mail about MRSA caused by dirty wards and bad staff causing people to die and how its increasing.

The truth is that MRSA is rates are falling but the reason that it increased in the first place was for a number of reasons in this order, these include better detection (the main cause of the huge rise), a increase in anti-biotic resistance and poor hand sanitation. The last one is very interesting, because lots of studies have been done about it, so for example its been found that a large number of patients come into hospital with MRSA and then it spreads between patients or that visitors bring it in then it gets spread around inmunosupressed patients. Another big factor was how we nurse these patients as we became more aware of the nature of MRSA so now they are all most all put into side rooms where possible and if MRSA is identified we have various care plans to promote infection control and a better knowledge base regarding hand sanitation.

So, othersideofthecoin, how do you address the postings of other people on this thread that obviously report experiences of the NHS somewhat different to the picture you insist and maintain is your version of it?

Quite simply i do not, I do not have all of the facts pertaining to any individual case and if i did I could not discuss them in a public forum. All I would say is that to improve care they should be feeding back to the individuals who provided the care in a formal matter.

Nursing in Context (nice title that) Ch6 p108 has a wee quote halfway down that goes like this...

"The NMC code of practice states that as a nurse or midwife, you: 'must act without delay if you believe that you! a colleague or anyone else may be putting someone at risk'.

Must be an overwhelming need for compulsory eyesight testing at the front line then?

I love this quote.

I live and breath the NNC code of conduct every day and have done for years.

I have personally been involved in cases (again cannot and will not provide details) where i have had to act on that clause of "the code".

its not a very pleasant thing to have to do but it does happen and i have no doubt i will call on it again.

Raising any concerns related to poor-quality care.

Again this is something that we nurses do all the time, we do it almost with out even thinking for example pointing out to colleague if they have forgotten to sign the right box or conducting ward audits.

I look forward to your next debunking attempt and diatribe with feigned interest.

This is not about debunking anything, as a health care professional I can tell you that you are flat out wrong with several of your assertions.

So this is about denying ignorance.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Yawn!

Misspelt one word thanks for pointing this out, will ensure I use my reading glasses in future, easy mistakea to makea. BTW, who chose the title again?

Next, not working in the NHS does not prevent me or others from getting things right based on experience of levels of so called care or reading fact based reports from within the NHS itself or by expert witness or accepted review authors.
You need to stop dismissing the truth, mine or anyone else's, and while you are at it stop selectively ignoring facts.

You don't care what newspapers I read? Neither do I, so at least we can agree on that point!

MRSA or any of the other bugs pervading NHS wards - you only have to stand outside any hospital and see the number of obvious hospital garbed staff entering or leaving to know one thing. Nursing staff are putting patients lives at risk by wearing working garb outside the hospital environment. No amount of hand wringing excuses or hand cleaning attempts can change that fact.

I do not discuss individual cases, blimey, beginning to sound like the Health Minister now! You don't need to possess all the facts you just have to accept that people, including patients and relatives, do tell the truth.

NNC live and breathe comments etc...I believe you, it's a pity there have not been more like you with your obvious high standards, otherwise most of the reports, reviews and parts of relatively new books would not have been in print and maybe more AVOIDABLE deaths would not have happened. Hindsight eh? A wonderful attribute.

Raising concerns, see above...

Last paragraph, see earlier posts, we agree to differ, end of!

I am sure that you are a caring, compassionate, communicative and very professional nurse who is an asset to the NHS, and I am sure that if you put half as much effort that you do in posting on ATS into your daily work your standards will remain high and act as an example. This is a genuine comment to you in the profession that you have chosen.
It is neither an attempt to placate you or earn stars, I genuinely respect your stance, it hasn't changed my view but hopefully has improved my spelling.
Respect and regards.
Looking forward to continued dialogue, of which I am sure there will be more...
Shufty

Well Flibber My Gibbet, you just can't help falling over media articles about NHS nursing standards these days.

I must be very careful from this point as I left my reading glasses downstairs so don't want to make any unforced errors or unnecessary ones for that matter either.

Evidently the Nursing and Midwifery Council (the clues in the name!) is considering imposing regular checks upon nurses to prove that they still care about their patients.

Blimey, what could have led to that, not this poster this time, again, surely, well no, I jest, it is as a result of some mild concern surrounding a supposed scandal at mid Staffordshire Hospital where some staff were said to be 'immune to the sound of pain', humph! Also alleged was the striking off of 2 nurses, coincidently from the A&E or casualty or ER department...alleged to have conspired to fiddle figures on waiting times. Allegedly, again, there are currently very few checks on nurses?
Feedback would have to be gathered by managers, evidently to prevent selective asking by the nurses, what!
Over the past few years the NHS has allegedly instructed universities to only recruit nurses deemed capable of being compassionate...hang on, wait a minute what about the 'other side of the coin here', the good ones? They don't have a mention in this as it concentrates on the alleged bad eggs...last bit is made up by me to evidence balance...
I won't quote any more allegations from the Daily Mail, damn, damn, damn, been reading the wrong paper again, must stick to the crossword on the back page, anyway see it yourselves, today's date p.19, look it up and decide for yourselves, don't take my word or the newspapers report, read the Nursing and Midwifery councils alleged words for yourselves! Oops, sorry application of rule of 3, bad practice.

Oh yes, sorry to have misled you all, I should have omitted the words alleged and supposed and concentrated on the facts.
But then don't take my word for it, nor Keogh's or the other fella, or the NHS, or the NMC or the NMC or the RCN, but obviously, being quoted by the Daily Mail, shock, horror, wringing of hands etc. being quoted by the Mail means it is biased, inaccurate and whatever else can be thrown in the way of truth based on fact.
Now where is my cocoa and where did I put my reading glasses?

Well blow me down Blackadder, there must have been some truth in the OP after all!?

reply to post by Shuftystick


Thought we might have been getting somewhere until i read this last post of yours that yet again shows you utter lack of insight into Nursing and the winder NHS.

Evidently the Nursing and Midwifery Council (the clues in the name!) is considering imposing regular checks upon nurses to prove that they still care about their patients.

What you are talking about is a system that the NMC are wanting to role out called "re validation" it is basically a consolidation of many systems in place that ensure that we are fit to practice. Already just now for example i pay £100 to stay on the registar and i have to sign a legally binding disclosure that i am fit to practice under NMC regulation. Then in addition to this i have my KSF under which my line manager has to ensure that I am keeping up to date with current nursing practice and that I am improving so that i can move through my pay scale that all gets tied into agenda for change. There are a range of other systems in place that i wont get into just now.

However, essentially under this "re-validation" program (at least last time i heard about it) the NMC can demand that I submit a portfolio of evidence that demonstrates my fitness to practice that that i am keeping up to date with contemporary nursing practice and adhering to their very high standards. They actually can already do this based on my understanding but it only happens during a disciplinary hearing where they will ask a resistant to prove their fitness to practice or when registering under a new part of the registrar they will want evidence that a registrant is competent for that role.

Overall though for the most part this will mean that my line manager will need to sign a bit of paper that says i am fit to practice and adhear to the code. The whole point of it is to improve public safety and confidence in nurses however currently as it stands if i was not fit to practice I be suspended anyway just now pending a NMC investigation. So essentially revalidation is the NMC doing what they have always done but in a different way. At the end of the day all it will mean is that in 3 years time when I have to re-registrar i will be filling out different paper work.

Anyway contrary to what you are saying the NMC are not doing this as a result of Mid-Staff's or anything like that, its been talked about for quite some time. Nor is it any indication that our regulatory body is concerned that a "majority" of staff are in anyway unfit to practice rather it is a new method they are wanting to try out to ensure that their standards are being met.

I support this move by the NMC just now in principle and i think most people do but it will be interesting to see how they will work it in practice. So long as it improves nursing practice it can only be a good thing (but it better not cost my any more to registrar:ham

I ask you once again to stop misinterpreting what you are reading.

..... I am starting to think its not your reading glasses, but if it is why not go for a FREE NHS eye test.

reply to post by OtherSideOfTheCoin


Hello again, what a surprise to have you back on the forum laying the blame on me yet again. Your skill at denial, selective ignoring of facts and general rose tinted spectacle view of unacceptable standards of nursing care, as evidenced by the media, expert reports, NHS, NMC, RCN, etc. etc. is a truly amazing example of self delusion.

For the benefit of the no doubt somewhat bored by now or at least bewildered followers of this thread, and lastly yourself, I repeat - that which I report is fact, even you can read it, it's just that you choose for your own reasons to ignore the issues raised by so many.

As for misinterpretation, I fail to see how reporting facts can be misconstrued as misinterpretation. The facts, unlike the dead, speak for themselves. The relatives of the many that have died as a result of widely acknowledged and proven lack of care deserve better from a serving NHS nurse. Do you ignore and decry the posts on this thread from them? Of course you do,by selectively ignoring them.

I will continue to post fact regarding the OP as long as the moderators allow this thread to continue. The revelations are still being made and the frequency with which they can easily be unearthed or in fact reported is disconcerting.