How morality is processed by a psychopath:Rich+Dishonest vs Poor+Honoest

This is a interesting debate I was reading about today called ...Rich and Dishonest vs Poor and Honest
Which is better?
"Let's jump straight into refutation.

R.1:

Let's look at your line of reasoning again: "Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies."

This is a contradiction, believe it or not. Look at your verb usage. "Honesty is a really important quality in a person considering that now a days everybody lies."

Both the bolded terms indicate that it is the present tense. This is a contradiction because it is in the present tense. You cannot be honest, presently, right now, when everybody (which includes you) is lying right now, now a days.

True, being honest does not mean a person has never lied. But being honest does mean that a person is not lying. Basically, what I'm getting at, is you cant be honest and lie at the same time. This is what is you are saying because of the present tense verbs in your sentence. Therefore, it is still a contradiction.

Also, thank you for clarifying the second sentence of money flow for me.


R.2:

Please note that Pro concedes this point to me. Pro agrees that being dishonest brings in more money.


R.3:

Pro says: "I am pretty sure nobody would want to rob a company to make money if the outcome was jail or an even worse consequence."

That is easily refuted. There are accounting scandals and frauds all the time. The risk is jail, but however, people still do accounting frauds, essentially robbing the company, to make money.
Just look at WorldCom: www.guardian.co.uk......
Pro also brings up the point: "What if people are caught for their dishonest acts?"
Obviously, if you are going to commit accounting scandal or a heist, you are going to plan it out carefully, to minimize detection. Therefore, there is little chance of getting caught. However, if you are caught, by that time you will already have hundreds of millions of dollars in several offshore accounts which you can easily use to bail yourself out of jail, or bribe officials. Humans are naturally greedy. The likihood of someone accepting a bribe to release you is very high. Therefore, you can easily evade jail.

R.3:

First of all, why does someone need to be trusted with money, if he already has hundreds of millions in his back pocket? There is no need. It doesn't matter if no one will trust you with money. You already have tons of that.

Secondly, Pro agrees that "yes money can help bring happiness".
But apparently, there comes a point where money does not matter anymore. Really? When is that point? Money will always matter, no matter what. You will always need money in life, you cannot live without it. Therefore, money will always matter.

Furthermore, money can buy health. There are several expensive drugs that are vital to cure certain diseases that many poorer people can't afford. Those people will die because they don't have access to these drugs. People who are rich can buy these drugs and cure themselves. Essentially, buying health. Therefore, money can buy health.

Time to defend my arguments.

D.1: Worry Free

Please explain how you can possibly worry about a $100 energy bill when you have millions sitting in the bank. Someone who has minimum wage income would worry about these kinds of things. But to someone who has millions in the bank, $100 is small fry.

Pro also agrees with me: " Yes, problems are a result in money", problems come from the lack of money.

Pro also says: "although you wouldn't be rewarded for being honest don't you think it would feel much better knowing you didn't have to lie to get somewhere in life"

Firstly, depends on what you mean by somewhere in life. As the resolution is "honest and poor", you would not be anywhere in life, you would be poor, living in a ghetto. How would that make you feel better? What would make anyone feel better is living in a nice penthouse suite with hundreds of dollar bills in your back pocket, not living in the slums.

Pro also says: "Being honest is a huge deal".

It really isn't a huge deal. So many people lie on their resumes, because it really isn't a big deal. Marketers cheat consumers all the time with false advertising, because it isn't a big deal. Sales people exagerrate to potential customers because it isn't a big deal. CEO's exagerrate their company's earnings because it isn't a big deal.

In our world today, there are lies everywhere. Nobody thinks twice about it. This proves that in our world, honest isn't a huge deal at all. Therefore, being dishonest is not a big deal. Therefore, it is better to be dishonest and rich than honest and poor.

Oh, your last point: "being honest is a huge deal, it brings you friends, family, and a good life, with or without money and if your so willing to "buy" your friends, they will never be true to you instead they will only use you"

Being dishonest by cheating can get you a good life, because you have lots of money. You have a family whether or not you are honest, it doesn't really matter. You can be a serial killer and still have a family. IT is not as if being honest is the only way you can get a family. As for friends, I'm sure you can make friends with someone equally as dishonest as you.

C.2: Dishonest jobs

There are several jobs that require you to be dishonest. Such as a professional poker player for example. You play poker for a living. Poker is a game where you have to be dishonest in order to win and rake in chips, your income essentially. IF you be honest, you will not get an income, you will not get any chips. You cannot support your family. Being dishonest, though, however, gets you income. And the more dishonest you are, the more income you can get, and support and give a better quality of life to your family. It is much better to be dishonest rather than honest in this situation. I challenge pro to provide me a reason that remaining honest, when your job is a professional poker player, is much better than being dishonest.
Conclusion
Because of several dropped points from pro, I have won this debate. I have easily proved my BOP while Pro only manages weak arguments about morality. As Con, I believe that the basic principles of life come first. As humans, our first priority is self survival and self betterment. This can easily be done through dishonesty. As humans, it is only natural to take the easier path by being dishonest. Therefore, being dishonest and rich is legitimate and much better than honest and poor."

www.debate.org...

I personally think both are advantageous depending on the personality type of the person. If your a left brain antisocial type then you would not notice if the "happiness" is shallow and self-gratifying. Its real in the psychopath's mind and feels real to him/her. A psychpath's perception of happiness is real to them so it is their reality.Same with the other end of the paradigm if your a totally selfless(like a saint,a "hero" or a nameless humanitarian) then you are extremely happy when others are doing well and you get no(or very little) enjoyment from being "rich" or wealthy and indulge in the options that it can open up.

Both will be comfortable but the honest right brain biased person can be happy and content regardless of the wealth they have. A left brain psychopathic type can only feel happy(content)if they are "winning" or being stimulated in some way.

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


Great observation.

There have been far too many psychopaths in my life.

never mind. I can't believe I was even motivated enough to respond to this.

Psychopathic is perhaps too strong a word to describe that view of dishonesty. Chronic lying is a pitiful behavior, but everything stated makes a lot of sense in a... self-serving kind of way.

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


While I suppose this largely semantic debate was moderately interesting from a purely let's-see-how-we-can-push-words-around level; it didn't have anything to do with how psychopaths process... anything really.

EllaMarina
Psychopathic is perhaps too strong a word to describe that view of dishonesty. Chronic lying is a pitiful behavior, but everything stated makes a lot of sense in a... self-serving kind of way.

edit on 2-1-2014 by EllaMarina because: (no reason given)

Psychopaths are commonly dishonest because it fits their predatory vampiric lifestyle. Its not their fault their brain is wired that way.If they are rich they would be totally oblivious to "love" (in the way we non-antisocials experience it)
and compassion,regret and empathy but that gives them an advantage in a hyper competitive environment like free market capitalism and any hierarchical power structure. The humanitarian would not do evil yet profitable options because of his/her humanity and empathy.
The psychopath wins in competition. Yet they lose when they crash the entire system with their irrational risk taking.(wallstreet 2008 mortgage con AND bailout(s) con). They win at the cost of the group. There has to be some type of balance between hyper-competive risk takers and honest humane people.
Too many people urinating in the community pool spoils it for everyone. Maybe not the people that got away with it though.
I find it kind of cruel to get upset at antisocials if they are indeed wired to be that way. They can't change even if they wanted to. They are potentially dangerous and should be treated that way.But reform? Ha!

Sociopaths can change or be reformed.Psychopaths cannot.

All I am stating antisocials would never be content(being hyper competitive) and non-antisocials have the potential of being content regardless of their income bracket.

redhorse
reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman

 

While I suppose this largely semantic debate was moderately interesting from a purely let's-see-how-we-can-push-words-around level; it didn't have anything to do with how psychopaths process... anything really.

Yeah but you have to look at the debate from the point of view of a psychopath vs humanitarian.

Would a antisocial be more content with being poor or rich vs a non-antisocial.
I think a antisocial would never be content because they are naturally competitive and want to win all the time. Even when winning(economically in this case)is pointless.

A poor honest/humane person can potentially be content no matter what income he/she has.

Lots of assumptions in this thread. .

John_Rodger_Cornman
Would a antisocial be more content with being poor or rich vs a non-antisocial.

I think it's too general of a question. You could have pro-social individuals who are highly motivated to have very high net worth, IN ORDER to bring their ideas to fruition more easily, and help out as they see fit. Also, antisocials will not necessarily focus on monies. They may find it easier to get what they want by other means.

I think a antisocial would never be content because they are naturally competitive and want to win all the time. Even when winning(economically in this case)is pointless.

I don't agree here. Someone can be labeled ASPD and not be a primary psychopath. A primary psychopath would never be content, but it wouldn't necessarily relate to the amount of zeros in their account. They may be creative enough to further control without needing more monies. Then the focus changes.

A poor honest/humane person can potentially be content no matter what income he/she has.

Potentially is the key word here. A poor honest man can potentially turn into a madman because they find their values bring them too many stressors in the current paradigm.




Furthermore, I dispute the "left brain" , "right brain" thinking. It's oversimplification.

If you're talking about someone who's had a hemisphere removed, okay, but otherwise it's just not really applicable.

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman


To me it's very simple.

"It is better to be an honest street sweeper than a dishonest king" - Bhagavad Gita

reply to post by John_Rodger_Cornman

This is a interesting debate I was reading about today called ...Rich and Dishonest vs Poor and Honest
Which is better?

Which is better?

Let's put one from each side in a survival competition...
The honest one will fall for the lies of the dishonest one.

The dishonest one will survive on the back of his counterpart because the honest one will feel obligated to the dishonest one and give away their last piece of chocolate.

Honest people rely on the honesty of others. Dishonest people also rely on honest people, they're more naive and gullible- and tend to take the higher road.

Dishonest people have no sense of this higher road.

It is because of the lies that people become psychopathic. They must divide their psyche to keep the dishonest part from overwhelming them. The part of their minds devoted to emotions become rigid eventually destroying any creativity and intuition.

Money become like a drug where the addict feels less and less fulfillment to achieve the same feeling. The effects lessen over time and reach a point where there is no stimulation received. They have now trapped themselves in behaviors that gain them no joy whatsoever and preclude their ability to feel the full depth of emotion otherwise healthy people can enjoy.

Their wealth may attract people to them but they live their lives suspecting everyone is using them in some fashion and is out to take from them as they did from others. They have no meaningful human relations thus making them envy those who have the capacity for love and happiness. This is why they desire power over others having attained wealth - to deny others what they have denied to themselves. No need to ask why all the controls and laws constantly being created for society keep increasing, it's collective punishment from those jealous people who happen to be fabulously wealthy but emotionally dirt poor.

Honest people have no need to compensate and remain sound psychologically. They retain equal ability to experience emotion and to use reason to their fullest extent.

It took me many years to fully understand this and found myself severely depressed having unresolved these issues. I had always been taught to be honest and found that one would often be punished for doing so, when lying would have allowed me to get of scot-free This created a big conflict for me trying to live a world where I found the measure of success to be connected to one's ability to lie. It is not just politicians and lawyers and even salesmen who get financial gain in their feats of deception - magicians and actors too make their living by deceiving others.

Once I resolved this issue internally my own schizophrenia began to fade (I was diagnosed as such at age 16). Medications did not cure it, counseling did not make it disappear. It was only through understanding of the greater concepts and my part in accepting or rejecting this that I was able to be whole again. This is why I frequently say I would NEVER relive my teen years for anything. It was hell. I was so confused between my concepts of right and wrong and what society held out to be "the good life" I was torn in 2. I have no regrets and feel no guilt for things done to others. I forgave my past wrongs and moved ahead with a clearer understanding of who and what I wanted to be. I'm happy with myself and its a good enough definition of success for me.

May I suggest that compulsive liars, particularly those who defraud others are those most in need of mental health counseling. It is the greed of these people that cause wars, spread starvation and misery. Arethey not the greatest danger to society at large?