2014 New year : New start for ufology? Or a continuing fall in standards?

vbstrvct
Have you or will you elaborate further on this "Collective" working group idea? I'm interested in hearing more. Thanks.

I've very briefly mentioned the basic idea in passing in the past (i.e. a fairly ambitious distributed/decentralised effort to attempt to scan several collections of official ufo documents and the UFO documents held in the archives of some universities and private ufo researchers, with the scanned material being made available on free file storage websites to avoid the need for financing or any infrastructure).

While I have a few plans, they would involve a fair amount of work. Frankly, I hope someone has some better/easy ideas...

Sorry guys, but a scientific approach just isn't going to cut it. Science is too clumsy and limited, and people are too caught up in their desire to make the UFO phenomena fit inside the materialism paradigm box. They don't realize that they are begging the question when they insist that this phenomenon is within the scope of science.

If science should someday grow enough to handle this topic, you'll know because it will also be able to handle parapsychology without freaking out. The 'Old Guard' will need to go the way of the dinosaur first.

As a UFO contactee and a mystic I'm telling you guys straight up that mysticism is better suited to bring an individual to an understanding of this phenomenon than science is. I know science fans don't want to hear that, but tough s***.

BlueMule
As a contactee I'm telling you guys that mysticism is better suited to bring an individual to an understanding of this phenomena than science is. I know science fans don't want to hear that, but tough s***.

It would be nice to find a middle ground. We don't communicate well with each other already using such vague notions as "vibrations" and "dimensions," whether they're used for math or mysticism.

Of course, it would require somebody who is good at creating new paradigms that can be functionalized, and those folks are hard to come by.

Blue Shift

It would be nice to find a middle ground. We don't communicate well with each other already using such vague notions as "vibrations" and "dimensions," whether they're used for math or mysticism.

True, but mysticism isn't really about notions and terms and snake oil and communicating with others. It's about going past all that to reach the altered states of consciousness which are conducive to personal enlightenment. Contact with UFOs is a side-effect of that life-long process. So is augmented psychic ability.

No offense to BlueMule, but it's hard enough to get good data on a UFO event without having to hear about an evidence less psychic contact. If a mystic could provide a solid lead with examinable evidence to back up their UFO contact claim, then I would be all for it. That hasn't been the case though.

It's important to state that part of the issue with Ufology in todays world came about due to this type of "research". A person can't review data that is based on an idea. Sure the idea can be evaluated for scientific possibility, but tangible proof is what is needed to show that a UFO event has happened. Pictures, films/videos, trace evidence located at the scene, these are things that can be studied under laboratory conditions. Without being able to provide independent labs with evidence to examine from suspected a UFO event does nothing more then hurt the field of investigation.

Sorry to sound harsh here, but the field was respected when it was studied through scientific (and testable) methodologies.

reply to post by Guyfriday


It's not a mystics job to provide non-mystics with solid leads. It's a mystics job to make contact with UFOs for himself, and stay sane after.

Science isn't mature enough to handle the mountains of parapsychological evidence that makes the guardians of the dominant paradigm uncomfortable. It isn't mature enough to handle UFOs either.

reply to post by IsaacKoi


Hello IsaacKoi

There are many scanned works yet, for example the mufon journal


www.theblackvault.com...

the apro bulletin

www....(nolink)/pdf/apro-bulletins-searchable/03_APRO_Mar_Apr_1972.pdf

the uk archives (7 very big paquets.. almost 60,000 pages )

www.nationalarchives.gov.uk...

the australian archives .. thanks to your effort ! and some other here

www.naa.gov.au...

the new zealand archive
www.stuff.co.nz...

the geipan files

www.geipan.fr...

the blue book archives
www.bluebookarchive.org...

the canadian divulgation

www.collectionscanada.gc.ca...

the bresilian divulgation

www.ufo.com.br...
www.ufo.com.br... (seems to have moved since...)


the fbi files

www.myfoxatlanta.com...
www.foxnews.com...


some cia files

the nicap files

www.nicap.org...

italy
www.aeronautica.difesa.it...
www.cun-italia.net...

etc etc

many books are now also scanned

and the AFU is also collecting things for years

www.afu.se...

one day I think the UN would offer a section for free access for all but the UN is not favorable to ufology, to much diplomacy and politics ;-)

..so many files and so little time

I hope that some governments will open new data gates in the future, for example germany files are not open, russian ones too, the felix ziegel archives are not available , argentina has also very important files so the peruvian air force too

in fact many governments have ufo files , many of them, ..in my point of view, they need a signal to collaborate with the private , we should prove that we have the level to collaborate, that's all


what can we say ? what are we knowing about the ufo phenomenons ? that governements doesn't know ? because if the governements have files, they don't make analysis , no time for this they said

we have time and datas , and I'm sure we know far more than many governments in some cases, but exchange of knowledge if profitable for all, private and governements I think , we are not at war, we are all humans ! and the aliens are not our ennemies, maybe sometimes , maybe not , maybe allies too in the case of a war in the sky //who knows ?


so the americans says.. "We the people".. humanity and alienity , we are and they are too

reply to post by IsaacKoi


Almost all reported UFO experiences suggest that the crafts have a "now you see me, now you don't" elusive behaviour. Yet it is taboo in Ufology to open the mind to the possibility that some unidentified crafts could be shape-shifting , dimension shifting or that they are beings of a different levels of existence.

Just like religion, Ufology will die off unless it evolves.

I would also like to ask people to stop assuming that there is more intelligent life out there.What is more likely is that a lower order of beings is seeking some key from us in order to become more like us - rather like king Louie in Jungle Book. That is the likely reason they operate in a shady way and have done so for centuries.

reply to post by BlueMule
Interesting viewpoint. I'm not really going to respond to your point since it seems we believe that two side of the coin are not linked (or could be linked)

I will stand by my view that for UFO research to be taken seriously it needs to move more to science and less speculation on UFO events. If a person has seen something in the air, then that sighting should be examined, solutions sought, all possible explanations ruled out before it is named UFO.

BlueMule
reply to post by Guyfriday

 

It's not a mystics job to provide non-mystics with solid leads. It's a mystics job to make contact with UFOs for himself, and stay sane after.

Science isn't mature enough to handle the mountains of parapsychological evidence that makes the guardians of the dominant paradigm uncomfortable. It isn't mature enough to handle UFOs either.

edit on 3-1-2014 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Totally agree with you. I always thought that it was enough to have my own experience.

reply to post by crowdedskies


crowdedskies

Yet it is taboo in Ufology to open the mind to the possibility that some unidentified crafts could be shape-shifting , dimension shifting or that they are beings of a different levels of existence.

Just like religion, Ufology will die off unless it evolves.

indeed , some ufo's make what i can describe as fusion, de-fusion, not only shape shifting , they "emerged" form nothing and seems to shrink to nothing

in hessdalen valley in norway, studied by hynek too, there are lights, but thoses lights are also .. solid Inside, so the ufo is non existent and existent at the same time

www.hessdalen.org...


the marfa lights in texas are of the same nature

en.wikipedia.org...


dimensions are just a way to travel in my view, not different univers, just a shift of information of position of the particules of one mass, the boson could give the information of position and each particule know the position of the others at all time (Einstein rosen paradox )


"There must be some unknown mechanism acting on these variables to give rise to the observed effects of "non-commuting quantum observables", i.e. the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Such a theory is called a hidden variable theory."

en.wikipedia.org...

the unkown mechanism for me is the universal positional information of all single particule in the univers , to put an image .. mother nature know exactly were everbody is located :-)


to be or not to be.. is just a question of information ;-)

true ufology is constantly evolving

and for the scientific method for analysis of ufo cases, what's science in a new field ? a new science or a theory ? ufology is an art not a only a science , science could not resolve this enigma alone , because it's simply also a human science not a hard one only

ufos shows to humans, it's also a relation, a matter of emotions, a matter of philosophy, a matter of life .;not just technology



we are and they are, that's it

josuavalley
There are many scanned works yet, for example the mufon journal

Sure. I've been collating links to online material (and posting those collated links) for several years, and been involved in various efforts to add to that online material (including searchable PDF versions of the official files from Canada, Australa, New Zealand and elsewhere).

BUT there is a heck of a lot more material sitting in various archives that could be made available online with a fairly modest amount of effort, particularly if various people at various locations around the world were prepared to do a few hours (admittedly boring) work scanning material.

I've been working on a list of relevant material/locations and have various ideas in relation to scanning/sharing it.

There's quite a lot of low-hanging fruit out there, just waiting to be picked.

One of the many aspects of ufology which has puzzled me over the years is that, given the amount of apparent interest in UFOs, there hasn't been more of an effort to obtain and disseminate the material in various archives.

BlueMule
reply to post by Guyfriday

 

It's not a mystics job to provide non-mystics with solid leads. It's a mystics job to make contact with UFOs for himself, and stay sane after.

Science isn't mature enough to handle the mountains of parapsychological evidence that makes the guardians of the dominant paradigm uncomfortable. It isn't mature enough to handle UFOs either.

edit on 3-1-2014 by BlueMule because: (no reason given)

Forgive me but ;

What qualifies anyone as a mystic?

Why is it that any above named mystics "job" would be to make contact with UFOs (and how does a mystic know they are/were sane before contact?). The parameters of mystic sanity are somewhat intriguing to measure don't you think?

Please give examples of para psychological evidence that explain which guardians and which paradigms are causing discomfort? Also what reasoning you have to conclude that science is still not mature to handle UFOs?

reply to post by IsaacKoi

Maybe those efforts could be combined with the idea of continuing UFO UpDates or creating a new discussion group? And judging from the responses of UFO UpDates shutting down many people would be interested in that.

reply to post by IsaacKoi



I have scanned partially the inforespace bulletin from belgium num 1 to 64 and some others in the past

but each pdf took 12 megas in average and some more


and I have scanned only the cases pages for some , if you want I could put some of them back on line for a short time

example

www.anakinovni.org/inforespace340001.pdf

mirageman

Forgive me but ;

What qualifies anyone as a mystic?

Hi and thanks for asking.

The biographies of mystics and the field of comparative mysticism show that the psychological process of mystical development or 'individuation' (to use Jungian terms) follows a pattern throughout the ages and across cultures. That pattern qualifies a mystic.

Why is it that any above named mystics "job" would be to make contact with UFOs (and how does a mystic know they are/were sane before contact?).

For the same reason that for tens of thousands of years it was the shamans job to make contact with the gods on behalf of the tribe.

The UFO phenomenon is far from modern.

The parameters of mystic sanity are somewhat intriguing to measure don't you think?

Indeed.

Please give examples of para psychological evidence that explain which guardians and which paradigms are causing discomfort?

www.deanradin.com...

Also what reasoning you have to conclude that science is still not mature to handle UFOs?

Because it can't handle parapsychology. Psychic ability and the UFO phenomenon are joined at the hip. If it can't handle one, it can't handle the other. The rules of science need to change.

reply to post by BlueMule


Thanks for a prompt reply.

I think we should never rule anything out until it is proven to be impossible.

Much food for thought there...

I can't say it's the case here but the attempts to claim something is better off being 'studied' by mysticism, or parapsychology, or whatever else, are almost always put forward by people who want to use the UFO field for their personal gain. Generally, these people aren't interested in answers, only beliefs. That way they will never be wrong. These are the people that reduce the study of UFOs to a religion.

One only has to look at history to find examples of what once were unknown, and at the time thought of unknowable, phenomena and are now well understood natural phenomena and scientific laws, to realize science is the best, and perhaps only, tool for eventually understanding and explaining reality.

It's quite possible that mankind right now is incapable of understanding the UFO phenomenon even through scientific means, but in the words of Richard Dawkins "... if there are things that science can never understand, sure as hell nothing else can."

reply to post by josuavalley


In fact the main problem to share ufo information is the disponibility of internet space to do so , in the past I ask myself why not ask to Google to help to do that ? they have great capacities of scanning and dataspace,

the second problem is the copyright one, what kind of materials could be available freely to anyone interested in the ufo field ?

the third one is the public interest for such datas, why share if people don't bother thoses files ?

but if we know science history , we know the role of data collecting , tycho brahé rulez :-)


"Tycho achieved, on a mass scale, a precision far beyond that of earlier catalogers. Cat D represents an unprecedented confluence of skills: instrumental, observational, & computational—all of which combined to enable Tycho to place most of his hundreds of recorded stars to an accuracy of ordermag 1'!""


en.wikipedia.org...

BlueMule
True, but mysticism isn't really about notions and terms and snake oil and communicating with others. It's about going past all that to reach the altered states of consciousness which are conducive to personal enlightenment. Contact with UFOs is a side-effect of that life-long process. So is augmented psychic ability.

We barely have an understanding of normal, regular, everyday consciousness, much less anything on the outer edges. And certainly no good framework to communicate or explore those ideas. Most people in your position are just winging it.