Why is there no real proof of Jesus existing outside of biblical references?

reply to post by SimonPeter


Surely it's possible to belive in God and Jesus without believing that the bible is the word of God?
I mean we all KNOW that the bible was put together by a group of people, to support the version of the story they wanted to tell. Who knows how including other texts could have changed the tone.

reply to post by Shiloh7

One can also see what was decided at Nicea to know that Constantine adapted the teachings of Apolonius. I have always had a feeling that Jesus's life was never right and we were looking at something that was not as it was written because so much didn't make sense and the idea of blind acceptance of religion is merely a copout against questions that cannot be answered.

Thank you for this!! I totally agree.

I had not heard of Apolonius, and this makes perfect sense.
Can you recommend reading material beyond Wiki??

reply to post by WilsonWilson


Well I would say so because people believed and were saved by testimony of people relaying the Gospel of Jesus . But when you begin to pick apart the story of Jesus with itching ears the answer is NO!
2nd Timothy chapter 3; For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine ; but after their own lust shall heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears . 4 . And they shall turn their ears from the truth and shall be turned to fables.
Hopefully these people will scrutinize their own lives as well as they do the wording of the bible over the message it conveys .

reply to post by SimonPeter

Originally posted by SimonPeter
Do you go to church ? Have you talked to your Pastor about it . That would be the way to go with your question

No, I don’t go to church; God showed me another way to believe.

The church is the body of ALL believers in Jesus. And even if they don’t all know the complete truth, they are still very much blessed by God IMO.

I have researched just about all the major denominations of Christianity, over the last 3 and half to 4 years. So I’m not exactly a new comer to this, and I also believe in Jesus in a very unique way. Which is not only difficult to explain, it’s also difficult for most people to understand.

As for the last part; I used to have questions…but now, I have answers!

Over the years I’ve come to realize than many aspects of standard Christian theology, just don’t fit Jesus overall words.

My current position is that Gnostic Christianity was the original form of Christianity, and that many parts of it (but not ALL parts) were subverted and added/edited and changed, by the Roman and Jewish authorities, to help make it fit, the Old testament theology. Not that it doesn’t fit the Old Testament, to some degree. I just differ as to what degree it fits.

In other words, I think men made many mistakes with the theology, and they put certain aspects of it, into the New Testament, deliberately, to make it fit. I also think this helps to explain the many discrepancies and contradictions, between theology and Jesus own words…

Anyway…I don’t think we should derail this thread any further. The topic of the OP is about evidence, not theology.

Although, if you wish to discuss this further, then by all means, feel free to set up a thread on the topic, and I will guarantee my participation in it.

Peace be with you…

- JC

reply to post by BO XIAN


I've read "Mere Christianity", awesome book. BUT...C.S. Lewis does not provide any - not one smidgen of...evidence for the actual, physical existence of the person Jesus of Nazareth. Telling me "if you can't find proof you aren't looking hard enough" or whatever line, or telling me that I MUST accept the Bible and 80 or so words by Josephus as incontrovertible proof, does nothing to further your argument.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13


But it's NOT significant. "Anno Domini"...in the year of the Lord (very loosely translated) - a label given a calendar that is only about 500 years old, by people that had a vested interest in reinforcing their religious view. It has absolutely no significance whatsoever in this discussion.

SimonPeter
reply to post by vethumanbeing

Yes I know . What do you say?

Well said! or; Well said regarding what? I am not a scripture decipherer; never have been to Seminary school "Loyola or The Moody Institute"; but I am all ears (unless there is a chance they will fall off from "ancient book reading" Leprocidic contamination. Could you readdress the question to your answer with all respect given SimonPeter?

3NL1GHT3N3D1
We'll never know for sure if Jesus ever actually existed or not but we do have the teachings that are attributed to him. If his teachings exist, there had to have been someone to say them, no? Whether that person was named Jesus and was born from a virgin is all speculation, but my gut tells me that no, the NT depiction of Jesus never really existed.

I personally try to focus on the red words in the NT, they are universal and will always be true in my eyes. They are what matter, not the person that said them.

I think it's possible that there was an uprising against Rome in the first century and the teachings that are within the NT are just an amalgamation of teachings snatched up by the Romans while fighting the revolters. They put these teachings under the pseudonymn of Jesus then created a historically fictional story around this pseudonymn using pagan themes and miracles to seal the deal.

You have to wonder why Rome would kill all those Christians in the first 3 centuries then turn around and legalize what those Christians were teaching in the end. It really makes no sense when you really think about it, that makes me think they killed the Christians then changed the message they were spreading for their own benefit.

Many of the teachings attributed to Jesus are found in works that were around much, much earlier than him. Jesus may have had access to those works in India, some scholars suggest.

However, there is no evidence that Jesus was the original creator of such teachings. At best, he was a plagiariser of the work of others, taking benefit from the fact that no one in the area of Israel had heard of such teachings before he read about them in India.

SimonPeter
reply to post by Spectral Norm

 

For a Christian you protest too much against what you say you believe and doubting the validity of the New Testament as you do says much .
You read too much junk ! Exactly what is your mission ? Do you know?

Spoken like a true mindless drone....
God gave you a mind to question everything...I would question the work of man anyday of the week...Bible = work of man.

babybunniesMany of the teachings attributed to Jesus are found in works that were around much, much earlier than him. Jesus may have had access to those works in India, some scholars suggest. However, there is no evidence that Jesus was the original creator of such teachings. At best, he was a plagiariser of the work of others, taking benefit from the fact that no one in the area of Israel had heard of such teachings before he read about them in India.

And here is one of them; "Jesus Lived In India" 'His Unknown Life Before and After The Crucifixion" by Holger Kersten. "This compelling book presents irrefutable evidence that Jesus did indeed live in India, dying there in old age".

vethumanbeing
And here is one of them; "Jesus Lived In India" 'His Unknown Life Before and After The Crucifixion" by Holger Kersten. "This compelling book presents irrefutable evidence that Jesus did indeed live in India, dying there in old age".

Well, if the evidence is old writings and other documents, then it can certainly be refuted. Funny how so many people will believe something to be true just because it is written down.

reply to post by boymonkey74


By the evidence of your statement your skills of understanding what I actually said is diminished .
The person states he is a Christian which is to say he believes what Jesus stood for , what he preached , his deity and all of this from the only source available , the bible . Then he professes that the biblical source that instilled in him that faith is flawed and incorrect . He says basically it cannot be trusted because it is flawed but I believe it .Paradox alert .

reply to post by vethumanbeing


Jesus lives in America too. I once seen his name in an arrest record in Texas . I forget his last name though .! I would really hate to believe that you would believe that Jesus lived in India .

SimonPeter
reply to post by Spectral Norm

 

You seem to think it is very important .You even suppose that there was errors and by your assessment there was errors . You are intent to believe there were errors and yet still claim to believe it . You need to circle the wagons and hold council to find out what you really believe !

Thanks for once again informing me what I think.

Important? No. Entertaining? Mildly. Informative? Sadly, not so much. Believe it or not, I am not here with a secret agenda to convert people to the church of satan. I participate in this discussion because I am hoping for a lively debate, hopefully on friendly rather than adversarial terms, on a topic that I find interesting, namely, the historicity of Jesus. There are some good arguments on both sides of the question, and hopefully I might be exposed to some ideas and perspectives that I have not yet considered.

However, although I have presented numerous examples so far in order to illustrate why I think as I do, it seems like all I am getting back from you is that you just keep repeating your thesis over and over again, without giving me any idea why you think it might be true, and a constant stream of character assassination, ad hominem, and invective, which is disappointing to say the least.

Peace be with you.

reply to post by Scope and a Beam



The reason and answer to your question or statement is because the whole thing is a fairytale.
It's the simplest and most likely reason, well from any logical and rational thinking person.

And if you have seem most depictions of Jesus whether it be media, church or in books he is "fair skinned and in some blue eyed, even some have him with golden hair or blondish brown" - hmmmmm but yet he was born in 1st Century Palestine!!

Blue Shift
veteranhumanbeing

VHBAnd here is one of them; "Jesus Lived In India" 'His Unknown Life Before and After The Crucifixion" by Holger Kersten. "This compelling book presents irrefutable evidence that Jesus did indeed live in India, dying there in old age".

Blue ShiftWell, if the evidence is old writings and other documents, then it can certainly be refuted. Funny how so many people will believe something to be true just because it is written down.

Oh NO, this is VERY real evidence I JUST concocted 6 hours ago, invented a name and managed to publish in record time just for your perusal; 'Element' is the bookbinder editor. Not sure I got everyone on tape though to vouch for authenticity of Facts.

Well I guess there is evidence confirming Jesus on ATS . 1500 year old inscription naming Jesus and Mary found .

reply to post by SimonPeter


1,500 years ago is still 500 years removed from when Jesus walked the Earth. I'd hardly say it is proof of Jesus existing personally.

What is the textual evidence for the existence of a historical Jesus? As far as I can tell, we have:
the New Testament,
the Christian Apocrypha,
Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews,
Tacitus, Annals,
Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars,
the Babylonian Talmud.
Am I leaving anything out? Maybe other documents could be considered tangential evidence. For example, we have the letters of Ignatius of Antioch, who lived during the time when the Gospel of John was likely written, and who is said to have been a student of John. He was willing to be executed by being eaten by wild animals because he thought Jesus was a real person, which is a very powerful attestation by a very early source. But he didn't really shed much light on Jesus himself, so perhaps it might be better to leave him aside, at least initially.

reply to post by wildtimes


Hi Wildtimes

It was a eureka moment when everything slipped into place. www.interfarfacing.com/apollonius.htm is a good place to start.

My interest lies in the 'Nazarene' title. I am wondering if this is linked to the Naga or the Serpent people, somewhere there is a link because Christ is supposed to have said 'Be ye wise as serpents' and this quote was not referring to snakes of any kind and I suspect it was a quote from Apollonius who had his own scribe. Hope it helps.