ATS - Some Questions on 'Collective Karma'

The thought of collective karma has been tickling my brain for a long while. I am undecided on if it exists or not. I'd like to know what ATSers think of collective karma. Please provide some insight for us all to think about. And in the spirit of SO's thread about being respectful when discussing religious issues (I'll add metaphysical issues as well), please don't insult anyone who you disagree with. Just discuss the topic. Thank you.

Collective Karma - The karma we create when we act in association with others. Those who create karma together also experience its effects together.

Karma - the sum of a person's actions in this and previous states of existence, viewed as deciding their fate in future existences

- Does collective karma exist?
- For that matter - does karma exist?
- If collective karma exists, is it a fair system?
- Is there interest accruing on unpaid karmic debt?
- Do we see any real life examples of collective karma?

- Both Jesus and Buddha said 'let the sins of the world fall on me' (to pay for). They both believed in paying for the karma/sin debt of others. Buddha believed paying the karmic debt of others would help those others to move off the reincarnation wheel. Jesus believed paying the sin debt of others would 'save them' as long as they accepted His payment of it. Does that mean that both Jesus and Buddha believed in 'collective karma''?

- Some people use Karma as an excuse to disparage those suffering some misfortune or illness. Some say that those who are suffering illness or poverty have 'earned' that suffering in previous lifetimes. Others say that those suffering aren't just paying off their own karmic debt, but the debt of many others and to do so is a holy calling. What to you think of this?

So if collective Karma is - "The karma we create when we act in association with others. Those who create karma together also experience its effects together" - then would that mean that

- (example) all the people of Germany would have to pay the 'collective karma' debt of WWII in Europe ? All the death, destruction, murders, pain .. all that war Karma sits on all the shoulders of Germans equally? Is that how it would work?? (I"m asking ... like I said, I don't know how this works). Would the entity 'Germany' suffer or would the people or is it both?

- (or another example) all of America would have to pay the 'collective karma' debt of 50 million abortions in the USA since it has become legal?? (assuming bad karmic debt for killing unborn humans). Would even those who work for an end to abortion being used as birth control, have to 'pay karmic debt' of abortion because it's legal in the country they live in? (I'm just using this as an example, not to debate abortion itself ... I say karmic debt from abortion because it's a death and to cause death is to cause karma).

- (or another example) all of the Catholic church would have to pay the 'collective karma' debt of the pedophilia scandal. The church as an entity will suffer ... the people who are leadership will suffer ... catholics will suffer ... etc. Can an entity suffer collective Karma?? (I'm asking ... I don't know the answer) Or is this really just a 'cause and effect' thing and not what 'collective karma' really is about?

Would folks please provide their insight on these questions. I've been reading up on 'collective karma' and I need some further insight to help me understand. Insight .. in easy to read terms .. keep it fairly simple please. And like I said ... I"m not sold one way or the other on it.

Collective Karma is real and in some cases instantaneous!!!!

At football training as a kid if 1 team member messed around or was stupid THE WHOLE TEAM had to do laps or push ups.
Some on here will probably think Im lying but its true.

Proof right there, glad I could answer your question but sorry as now the thread is redundant

S&F

reply to post by FlyersFan

Does collective karma exist?

I would say no... each person is responsible for their own sins

For that matter - does karma exist?

Most definitely... and its provable

If collective karma exists, is it a fair system?

IF it exists, then it must be fair as well... but I don't see how it would exist

Is there interest accruing on unpaid karmic debt?

no...

Interest is man made... and has nothing to do with spirituality

am i doomed because of the actions of others?? doesn't seems fair

Oh wait fukushima et al. yes it does exist, another reason to hate the collective

reply to post by FlyersFan


My understanding of Karma is not exactly in line with hard line Buddhists. However, it is along the same sort of line.. anyway, to begin, I will say that I believe in re-birth, not re-incarnation. I believe there is a part of us (conciousness) that is.. recycled for better use of the word. Everything else in nature is re-used, giving us all this knowledge and experience to throw it away? Seems wasteful, no logic to it.

As for Karma, I believe our actions leave an imprint on our conciousness, bad actions make us more comfortable with them and can quickly turn you into a bad person, where as good actions will do the opposite. These imprints on our lives and our concious being must be transferred if we are to be re-born, perhaps it's not like "you were bad to dogs this one time so your next time round will mean you will be killed by dogs", I don't think it's that obvious, I don't think the universe can differentiate between species or inanimate objects, just spirit. If your spirit is scarred with hatred and anger, then when your conciousness (or part of it as I believe conciousness is not an individual thing but a force, and our individual conciousness is like a splinter, taken from the same bark of wood) is returned to another physical being, those scars will affect the life and actions of that individual.

As for a more instant Karma, I always believe doing good deeds will encourage people to do good things for you (group Karma the same), in that sense Karma can be more instant. However, it does not mean that bad things will happen to good people, as we all know too well.

A collective bad karma? Well I think direct involvement or inaction would cause a scar on your being, for example, observing abuse and not saying anything or laughing along with a friend while they mug someone. I don't think an artificial association (like being in the same country, which is a man made idea) will have an effect, the priests at the church, no, unless they knew and purposefully covered for them.

This post is not my opinion is is just higly speculative and theorizing about a subject we can not grasp in this lifetime.

According to Indian Yogic system the time of death is governed by the karma of a living entity. When the karma's course is finished then death takes place. It is not clear how to find out what constitutes karma, its duration or how many karmas a person accumulates during his/her lifetime.

So if collective Karma would exist it is only a part of ones Karma. But as the OP ask about Germany. Well most people are dead now. But lets take the WW2 germans as example. If they reincarnated it is a difficult subject. We don't know if it is possible but let's assume it is. So when you die you reincarnate. No one shows you need to reincarnate as a German. No one knows you need to reincarnate immediately and no one knows you need to reincarnate in chronological order. The best way for karma would be to reincarnate as Jew in pre WW2 so that you actually endure what you caused. In a broader sense it can be both positive and negative..

The OP also states about the church and pedophilia and about governments and abortion. If you were aware of one of that processes and you didn't intervene or at least question the autority (you have to consider one's capabilities in a life time) you could get your portion of the collective Karma. Again switch time of the reincarnation factor and you know who will get hurt. You will become a millionaire with a beautiful family and friends it's just too bad you allowed your own abortion.

When you open up en speculate on reincarnation through different times meeting a soulmate can actually be meeting yourself in another form.

The underlying principles of Karma offers much value as food for thought... we reap what we sow - it can be effective immediately, or arise in generations to come. Yet karma in itself is a belief system, nothing more.

As with the beholder of any belief system, the belief will be rationalized via causal linkages and complex equivalents giving the impression of truth and reality.

An irrational belief in Karma can also be disempowering... it can allow the believer to justify current sufferences on perceived or past unknown misdeeds.

Dumbass
and no one knows you need to reincarnate in chronological order. The best way for karma would be to reincarnate as Jew in pre WW2 so that you actually endure what you caused.

That caught my attention. You are right. The perfect karma would be to reincarnate as the
person/soul that you are doing the negative things to. You pay yourself back even as you are doing it. Interesting thought.

Sounds like collective consciousness to me. I believe humans have collective consciousness. They have many names for this phenomenon. Birds of a feather flock together is just one of them.

reply to post by FlyersFan


that is too messy, timecop shows us that we shouldn't interact with our self



i don't think you will be an individual if you exist multiple times at the same time head hurts karma is too deep for me

Just my own thoughts on Karma as a whole, FF...

I don't believe in karma in the way most of the books, articles, etc. explain it. If there is anything that resembles karma, or collective karma for that matter among humans, it is simply that our own conscience(guilt) becomes our judge, jury, and executioner. Otherwise, it is simply a matter of the consequences of our actions.

To the degree that collective identity exists, collective action exists. To the degree that collective action exists, collective karma exists.

Karma, whether collective or not, does not exist as some divine process of God or nature. It is always determined after the fact by those who believe in it and is found no where else but in the rhetoric of its advocates.

I do believe there is collective karma, we see that karma coming back to us today. We have been sitting on the sidelines and doing nothing to improve the world for too long, that collective laziness has lead to the collective karma that we see today where the powerful take advantage of us and destroy the planet. It is on humanity as a whole's hands that we are in this situation today, because we have willingly let it happen.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, this is basic science and the same applies for inaction as well. Karma is this action/reaction process taking place.

FlyersFan
- (example) all the people of Germany would have to pay the 'collective karma' debt of WWII in Europe ? All the death, destruction, murders, pain .. all that war Karma sits on all the shoulders of Germans equally? Is that how it would work?? (I"m asking ... like I said, I don't know how this works). Would the entity 'Germany' suffer or would the people or is it both?

Ummm.

Hmmm

I dunno..

Germany is one of the more productive and wealthiest countries in Europe presently.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I think karma and original sin (redeemer - sacrificial messiah) are just diff aspects of the same coin. As pointed out above Germany now has one of the highest standards of living. I honestly think we live in a matrix style simulation. The fear of karmic retribution like the fear of hell is meant to keep most of the populace in check. I mean do you honestly see karma playing out on the 2 most powerful people richest people on the planet (hint 1 is a royal one is a banker)

having practised for want of a better word "sympathetic magic" to acheive certain goals I can honestly say that you can have it all ( again all is subjective )

The buddist explains that ego or self is the cause of suffering. Sure great but a little more ( or more more money sure helps ). Its what you do with the fruits of the money that counts for you're well being.
And yet so called philanthropists like Bill Gates have no problem donating money to depopulation agendas.

Let me ask the op...what karma did the old roman empire suffer other than a short period of darkness. It transformed itself and reinvented itself into christianity and has enjoyed another 2000 years of a free ride on the backs of its slaves, giving some comfort at the time of death with the promise of a life everlasting?

The Matrix analogy is that you too can opt out or more precisely co-opt (?) the software and bend it to your will. If thats what you truly want (truly as in the Luciferian ideal of the wordl)

This is truly a riddle.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Well, that is in line with the idea that we are all just physical manifestations of the Creator experiencing a material, human, Earthly existence. There is no you or me...we are all the Creator..so, in that sense, the karma is collective and instantaneous. But also, in that sense, is karma even necessary? Just thinking out loud here...