Searching For The Matrix...

Hello ATSers, I hope all is well and balanced with everyone. I wish you all the best for this season, and the many seasons that will follow it.

I need your help. When I was a boy, I would spend a lot of time reading the World Book Encyclopedia (1987 release), and stumbled upon an article that mentioned the Matrix. Essentially, it alluded to the same premise the 1997 movie was about (minus the robots), philosophically/metaphorically speaking. The original article was not called the "Matrix", I don't think so, but it did mention it by name. I tried looking for the article again, and even tried searching online for it, but with no luck. I've found a few different philosophies online, but none that seems to be what I read about as a boy. This stood out to me as a boy, because I read the article after seeing The Matrix movie, but the Encyclopedia edition was from 1987. I really don't know where to start, and can't really point anyone in a particular direction, but I'm hoping someone from ATS knows about the philosophy I'm referring to, and knows about its reference to the matrix.

I need your help in finding again, this philosophy I stumbled upon as a child.

I'll greatly appreciate any help I get ATS.
Thank you!

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


First things that jump into my mind are: Simulation hypothesis or Holographic Universe Theory.

Hope you find what you are looking for.

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


You might find what you are looking for or a way to find it here...

The 8th Sphere

Happy Hunting.

sdrawkcabII

I need your help in finding again, this philosophy I stumbled upon as a child.

Quoting Morpheus: "You don't know what it is, but it's there, like a splinter in your mind, driving you mad."

Maybe you saw a 1987 Worldbook Encyclopedia entry on mathematics, with a descriptive illustration of a mathematical matrix? Perhaps you were reading two articles at once and got them confused?

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


In the movie, Neo hides his stash in a book called "Simulacra and Simulation" by Jean Baudrillard. It's an interesting read if you're interested.

There's also the "brain in the vat" thought experiment, or Descartes' "Evil demon", in which he believes an evil demon is making him perceive his life.

Aphorism
reply to post by sdrawkcabII

 

In the movie, Neo hides his stash in a book called "Simulacra and Simulation" by Jean Baudrillard. It's an interesting read if you're interested.

There's also the "brain in the vat" thought experiment, or Descartes' "Evil demon", in which he believes an evil demon is making him perceive his life.

edit on 25-12-2013 by Aphorism because: (no reason given)

I like the look of that book - I checked it out on wiki.
The 'evil demon' making you perceive your life is symbols and signs.

Simulacra and Simulation is most known for its discussion of symbols, signs, and how they relate to contemporaneity (simultaneous existences). Baudrillard claims that our current society has replaced all reality and meaning with symbols and signs, and that human experience is of a simulation of reality. Moreover, these simulacra are not merely mediations of reality, nor even deceptive mediations of reality; they are not based in a reality nor do they hide a reality, they simply hide that anything like reality is relevant to our current understanding of our lives.

en.wikipedia.org...

Simulations take over our relationship with real life, creating a hyperreality which is a copy that has no original. This hyperreality happens when the difference between reality and representation collapses and we are no longer able to see an image as reflecting anything other than a symbolic trade of signifiers in culture, not the real world.

culturalstudiesnow.blogspot.co.uk...


Reality cannot be seen when one is lost in concepts, words, symbols and signs - lost in thought - lost in time.
Who can see reality without words?
What is here prior to all concepts?

reply to post by Aphorism

Symbols and signs build an abstract world that does not exist in reality.
Those symbols and signs construct a separate dream world in which a simulated person lives.

The simulated person does not exist anymore than the constructed world does - just an persistent illusion until the illusion vanishes.
When the illusion collapses true reality will be seen.

The simulated world is not very pleasant to live in and it is what everyone is trying to escape. True reality is what some call God - it is hidding in plain sight. It is words, symbols and signs (concepts) that deceive one into believing in 'other'. When there seems to be 'other' then there will be conflict and an underlying fear. When there is conflict there can be no true peace.
Believe in 'other' and suffer.

Is there other than what is?

There is a belief in 'tomorrow'. There is a belief in 'yesterday'. There is a belief in a 'you' and a 'me'. Tomorrow, yesterday, you, me - are all concepts. What is there really?
Really there is only ever 'what is'.

This, This, This. This is reality but there seems to be something separate to it that is searching for it. When the two become one the kingdom shall be revealed.

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


I'm not sure where the article is but, the 'matrix', in reality, is opinion which distorts view of reality. Weltschmerz (probably spelled it wrong).

Everything is justified in the mind, whether it be a thought judging something as 'good' or 'bad'. It is only justification.

When you live in agreement with life, there will be harmony and therefore peace.
When you disagree with life, there will be conflict and therefore stress.

The Matrix was certainly a rabbit hole. Before it I had read stories from Phillip K. Dick and Neuromancer by William Gibson, but they really made me grasp the potential that our reality may not be real at all.


Since then I have often pondered about the brain in a jar or simulated reality, a collective dream world, I came to the conclusion it matters little if I am real or a dream or even a game simulation. I think and feel so that matters to me and then ultimately what I found really matters to me is how I treat others within this reality...

reply to post by Itisnowagain


Can you be aware without a thought, or concept, of what you are perceiving? Is awareness not conceptualization?

To illustrate that: If you are daydreaming (lost in thought) you become unaware of your surroundings. Why?

I think thought gives awareness, it does not take it away, (because awareness is only present where thought is.)

Now for some fun:

Images, symbols, lights, words, embodiment, body, etc are concepts, right? They are the thinkers thoughts, and in order for them to be, thinker must have will, but he also needs something to be aware of, right?

We have to ask: Can a thinker be a thinker without thoughts to think - without something to think of, or be aware of?

That awareness, will, and image is what I believe describes the Trinity and why it cannot be separated: Thinkers needs will and concepts to think of or be aware of, and the thoughts need will and a thinker to manifest them, and will needs a thinker to will it as a conceptualization.

Taking the properties of thinker, thought, and will we are shown a function: [good] concept (re)production. Beginning with awareness and ending with producing a new concept, all of it is conceptualization of the 3 fundamental things you cannot separate - they're intrinsic yet distinctive, and because of them, we too are apart of the [good] concept reproduction process which is reality and a matrix of concept production.

(Somewhere faith comes in.)

What are your thoughts on this?

I have been watching this discussion for four days now...

On December 25th, Christmas day, I first saw it.

In the process of writing up an answer, I had 12 tabs open,
two pictures, links to supporting documents in an open library
and Wikipedia ...



... and was in the process of putting together my thoughts,
when there was a knock at my door. It was my Brother, come
to visit for Christmas.

I invited him in, offered him a seat, and showed him what I
was working on. "Well go ahead and finish" he said. "I have
too much to say," I replied "I'll explain it to you first, and
then I'll be able to sum up much easier and explain it online
after wards."




16 hours later, the sun is up shining through the windows:

My Brother: "Evolution."
Me: "I'm too tired to explain what evolution means to me,
as opposed to what it means to you."

sdrawkcabII,
I am no longer surprised that no one else has given you the answer,
or even has a clue where to guide your search for finding the answer.

I have even written my own thread about the subject, explaining
what was removed from our American schools before, and very few
people were even close to "getting it."


ATS Thread: Crictical Thinking in Geometry
posted on Nov, 13 2010 @ 03:52 PM
Flags 5
Stars 4
Pages 2

And every instance of linking to that thread since usually derails into explaining
how I lost my password to that old account in the great password reset back-in-the-day,
and in no way serves to illustrate or educate on anything.





So, I'm not going to even try to answer the "QUESTION" here.

Yes I'm saying #ing # off you ignorant mother #ers who think that
the web, in any way, constitutes all human knowledge.

That the encyclopedia Britanica's were taken out of the public libraries on purpose,
and that even die-hard Star Trek fans have no Idea that the "A" symbol above, comes
from a significant moment in the history of Logic, Mathematics, and human Knowledge.


/ here is my retarded face

Mike Grouchy

I mean seriously.


No one even knows how to look up the root,
or origin of a word to get a goddamn clue anymore?



Ignorance has become recursive.

Mike Grouchy

Ignorance has become recursive

Bleeeeep
Can you be aware without a thought, or concept, of what you are perceiving? Is awareness not conceptualization?

Can you see and hear? Seeing and hearing, smelling, tasting and sensation all arise without words (concepts). If one is really listening to what is in the environment thought stops. When a thought arises one is aware of the thought, when a sensation arises one is aware of the sensation. One has to be aware before any thing arises.

To illustrate that: If you are daydreaming (lost in thought) you become unaware of your surroundings. Why?

Because one is not seeing and hearing what is in the environment - one is seeing and hearing what is in mind. One has ones attention (awareness) on 'what is not happening'.

I think thought gives awareness, it does not take it away, (because awareness is only present where thought is.)

One sees an image and then a word appears that says 'this is a tree' - the image was 'seen' first and then a word names it. The word 'tree' does not remove awareness but it might stop you actually seeing the texture, the shape, the sound of the leaves moving, the colours (you might 'think' a tree is just green but have you 'seen' how many greens there are?), you might not notice that each leaf on each tree is different.

Images, symbols, lights, words, embodiment, body, etc are concepts, right? They are the thinkers thoughts, and in order for them to be, thinker must have will, but he also needs something to be aware of, right?

Who is the thinker of thoughts?
Thoughts arise but who is thinking them?
There are thoughts happening but no one is thinking them - there seems to be an awareness of them happening.

We have to ask: Can a thinker be a thinker without thoughts to think - without something to think of, or be aware of?

What is a 'thinker'?
Thoughts are appearances, like clouds that appear in the sky. Thoughts appear and then disappear, changing and moving constantly. What is aware of them?

Thinkers needs will and concepts to think of or be aware of, and the thoughts need will and a thinker to manifest them, and will needs a thinker to will it as a conceptualization.

Thought is conceptual, words and ideas are concepts.
I do not understand what you mean when you say 'thinkers needs will' - thought just happens, like the heart just beats.

Thought appears to be seen. Awareness sees the thought.
The seen and the seer cannot be separated - it is one.

You are just seeing and hearing all that appears and disappears - thought is just something that appears.

Did any thoughts arise on reading the above?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

What gives you control over your awareness' focus?

Thought? Will?

...

I am under the impression that actual physical trees are images, symbols, words, concepts from ancestral trees/God.

Think of it like this: Your ancestor dating back 100,000 years ago thought he needed to move to a different climate for food, water, whatever - it was his thoughts that controlled his action, and it was his action which forced you to appear today as you do (your genetic traits.)

That is, the actual physicality of this reality, all things seen and unseen, are images which represent concepts, or thoughts, which originated in God and our forefathers. Basically, physicality is mental images.

or

The literal physicality of a tree is the word/image/symbol God chose to represent his concept.

Bleeeeep
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

What gives you control over your awareness' focus?

Thought? Will?

Watch it and find out. The attention moves on it's own just like the heart beats on it's own. When I say 'on it's own' - I mean you are not doing it. All is just arising, happening, all by itself.

I am under the impression that actual physical trees are images, symbols, words, concepts from ancestral trees/God.

Think of it like this: Your ancestor dating back 100,000 years ago thought he needed to move to a different climate for food, water, whatever - it was his thoughts that controlled his action, and it was his action which forced you to appear today as you do (your genetic traits.)

That is, the actual physicality of this reality, all things seen and unseen, are images which represent concepts, or thoughts, which originated in God and our forefathers. Basically, physicality is mental images.

You say 'think' of it like this....... see that is just a story being told now and heard now. Thought appears and tells stories. Thought appears and is seen - the stories made of words distracts you from what is actually happening. Thought talks about events and people in time - when does it do that?

Timeless being.
Presently the appearance changes constantly.
Nothing moves out of presence - things just look different.
There is that which sees the present changing (awareness) and there is that which changes (the scenery/ the seen/the known - thought, sensation, sounds, sights cannot be held onto).

The literal physicality of a tree is the word/image/symbol God chose to represent his concept.

Yes - the image that appears presently is the immaculate concept - the word of God. However to get 'tree' one has to separate the shape tree from the whole image of light. The whole image of light is all that is appearing presently- including sound, smell, taste, sensation and maybe a word arising which is contained within the whole image.

It is a little like the tv screen - it is whole and complete before the picture appears and when the picture appears it hides the 'whole image' (the whole screen) by appearing as many things moving on the face of the screen.
Awareness is the whole complete place that everything appears in - like the screen on the tv is the place that all the tv people appear in. Without a tv 'screen' how could the tv people appear to have existence?

reply to post by Itisnowagain

Symbols and signs build an abstract world that does not exist in reality.
Those symbols and signs construct a separate dream world in which a simulated person lives.

How does an abstract world that does not exist in reality construct a separate dream world in which a simulated person lives?

Symbols and signs describe reality. They construct books, nothing more. Truth is metaphor.

reply to post by Aphorism

Aphorism
How does an abstract world that does not exist in reality construct a separate dream world in which a simulated person lives?

An abstract world does not construct a separate dream world - the separate dream world IS the abstract world.
What is there really?

Words, sign and symbols pretend there is a world made of things.
What is seeing and hearing 'made of'?
Words will say - 'a someone seeing' - a thing/'a someone' is implied - but there is just seeing. The 'someone' is added.