US Servicemen and women, YOU are the SOLUTION and the PROBLEM...

reply to post by pointr97


Now while its not the "best" word to describe it, seems fair enough to compare. I get that the word is usually used to describe what you defined but id say words can be used more then exactly as it is defined. Id say some of the best writers would stray from the way a word is defined to use it to describe something. More then just fuel on a fire IMO

Sremmos80
reply to post by pointr97

 

Now while its not the "best" word to describe it, seems fair enough to compare. I get that the word is usually used to describe what you defined but id say words can be used more then exactly as it is defined. Id say some of the best writers would stray from the way a word is defined to use it to describe something. More then just fuel on a fire IMO

I'm sorry, but what exactly are you referring to?

pointr97

JHumm
If martial law was enacted and we had the military using force against our own people, how long would it take for the soldiers to wake up and see that they are breaking the oath to protect against all enemy foreign and domestic. How long before he realizes that while he is using force against a family and starts to think.....while I stand here pointing my weapon at these people that somewhere there is a soldier pointing his weapon at my family, what happens then?

Is it possable for them to wake up and see that they are just pawns for the lawmakers and war mongers, who send troops around the world with almost no real results and are thought of as disposable people by our government. Would it be possible for them to remove the corrupt government?

You would be surprised at how quickly this would happen.....this is one reason the senior staff are getting relieved and the excuses for sending them overseas are becoming so frantic.....the powers do not want them stateside, they will be a variable that can change the tides.....throw the best laid plans to waste.....a fully garrisoned post would be a formidable outpost against martial law.

But that would be a good thing for the people right?

JHumm

pointr97

JHumm
If martial law was enacted and we had the military using force against our own people, how long would it take for the soldiers to wake up and see that they are breaking the oath to protect against all enemy foreign and domestic. How long before he realizes that while he is using force against a family and starts to think.....while I stand here pointing my weapon at these people that somewhere there is a soldier pointing his weapon at my family, what happens then?

Is it possable for them to wake up and see that they are just pawns for the lawmakers and war mongers, who send troops around the world with almost no real results and are thought of as disposable people by our government. Would it be possible for them to remove the corrupt government?

You would be surprised at how quickly this would happen.....this is one reason the senior staff are getting relieved and the excuses for sending them overseas are becoming so frantic.....the powers do not want them stateside, they will be a variable that can change the tides.....throw the best laid plans to waste.....a fully garrisoned post would be a formidable outpost against martial law.

But that would be a good thing for the people right?

Yes, that would be a very good thing.....what i have attempted to express is that these men and women volunteered to serve the country and defend our liberties as expressed through the constitution and bill of rights.....these are highly trained individuals that believe in freedom paid for by the blood of their forefathers and friends.....they are not the enemy of the American populace, they are their defender.

gladtobehere
Our nation goes to war based on lies. They have a policy of endless warfare. We have in America, a war-for-profit industry.

This isn't just about America...

It goes FAR beyond International borders.

It also began long before America ever became a nation.

I personally believe it has been going on since the beginning of time.

“All war in history has been hatched by governments, independent of the people’s interests, to whom war is always pernicious even when successful” ~ Leo Tolstoy

One group and one group alone is responsible for virtually all wars and bloodshed on the face of this planet. The Synagogue of Satan

My working hypothesis is that most wars/conflicts are orchestrated by this satanic cult. The same people secretly manipulate events on both sides to undermine "all collective forces except our own" and establish world government tyranny (a.k.a. "globalization.") In other words, an Occult Elite is waging war on humanity and we don't even know it. How They Control the World

"I have worked since 1911 trying to find out why the human race can’t live in peace and enjoy the bounties and blessing God provides for our use and benefit in such abundance, it was 1950 before I penetrated the secret that the wars and revolutions which scourge our lives, and the chaotic conditions that prevail, are nothing more or less than the effects of the continuing Luciferian conspiracy." Pawns

pointr97

MrSpad
Your barking up the wrong tree. The military lives and dies by its CinC being a civilian. The founding fathers made sure of this just avoid the very thing you suggest. The military does not involve itself with removing its own civilian leadership. That is why people vote. You are free to bitch and complain about who the people elect but, you can damn well bet the military will follow that Presidents order as compelled to by the Consiitution. Not to mention this is an all volunteer military and if they do not like what is going on they can leave when their time is up.

No, actually, you are very much wrong. Since Vietnam, the military since the late 80s has installed a 'question unethical and illegal commands' philosophy. The field grade commanders are all from that era and are constitutional leaders, they gave an oath to defend the constitution first and foremost. They will not execute an order that goes against the constitution even if it is given directly by the commander in chief.

edit-just sat at the army/navy game watch party with about 200 army and navy grads between 65 to 07, and this was actually discussed, common consensus.....a soldier follows the constitution, president second.

edit on 24-12-2013 by pointr97 because: (no reason given)

Exactly which is what a military coup would be, which is what the OP is hoping for. The military is not going to take out the President because joe nobody on the internet does not like his foriegn aid policy. Civilian leadership of the military is enshined in the Constitution to keep the US from becoming a country that has a coup every few years. So I am very much right. And I do not need to sit at football game to get the opinion of my peers.

reply to post by Kamza



First, let me introduce myself:

I am a soldier in the US Army. I am currently deployed to Afghanistan.

While I understand the sentiment you are expressing I must caution you to think a little deeper on the matter. We as a military are all about doing our jobs. This is NOT to the exclusion of recognizing problems in our government, it's corrupt nature, or the futility of it's use of our expertise. That said, you have to understand what you are asking for. Military power is NOT a method of bringing about positive change to a society. You need only look at the recent past for examples of why this is true. We may hold the power because we have the weapons. But you do not want those weapons aimed inward either at a corrupt government or at the people at the behest of a corrupt government. Neither scenario would work out well for the average American or the world.

What you would wind up with is a military who has no history of ruling, now in the position of having to rule. Do you really think that would serve to eliminate corruption? Indeed, it would only create an even more dangerous version of it.

The military is here to fight and win the nations wars. PERIOD. We are not a governing body. We are not a political system. We are not Rulers. We are fighters. We are the sword of the nation and that is it. Many politicians have tried to use us as tools of social construction in foreign lands, they have tried to use us as police, the have tried to use us as interim rulers, and NOT ONCE has it bore success. The structure the military of the US follows is for those of us who chose it. If you impose that structure on the people via the overthrow of government you will wind up with a government subservient to the military. It would be a military dictatorship, for they will not fear the people, but the armed force that enforces its' existence.

This is true of ANY military overthrow in history, and I do not believe it would be any different in the US. The solutions to the problems in American society and government MUST BE found and implemented by the people, not by us. That is our job and it should NEVER be our job.

pointr97

spartacus699
reply to post by pointr97

 

a cult:

they recruit,
isolate,
break the person down
re indoctornate (brainwash)
retrain
and then send the person out to work giving most of the benefit back to the cult in exchange for peanuts.

that's exactly what the military is. It's rediculous. Other than the US being the miltary arm of a global power struture. So ya of course they have promote their gi joe life style. Get real, killing people and or then being killed is not what we should be born to sign up to go and do.

Please learn to spell or at least spell check. Next, you have obviously zero experience with the military or you wouldn't give them such little consideration. Your ability to disagree with me and insult their accomplishments were signed by those that went before and gave their blood as a down payment. Or, you do have experience, and were a washout still holding hatred for a system you couldn't hack it in.

Okay it's not all bad. Just like g-v isn't all bad. We need more of it at certain times. Like sometimes we need a standing army. But now a days we dont' really need it. not to the point where they have taken it and turned it into a mass world wide Mil-ind-complex, with something like 1000 bases world wide, an annual trillion dollar budget, millions of servicemen, now using the tech on civilians. We were warned but we did not or just could not heed the warning. Now we're screwed. No turning off the standing army. From here it's gonna be bots bots and more bots until they eventually turn on us and we're all dead.





[snip]

projectvxn
reply to post by Kamza

 

The military is here to fight and win the nations wars. PERIOD. We are not a governing body. We are not a political system. We are not Rulers. We are fighters. We are the sword of the nation and that is it. Many politicians have tried to use us as tools of social construction in foreign lands, they have tried to use us as police, the have tried to use us as interim rulers, and NOT ONCE has it bore success.

edit on pTue, 24 Dec 2013 09:31:18 -0600201324America/Chicago2013-12-24T09:31:18-06:0031vx12 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

edit on pTue, 24 Dec 2013 09:36:39 -0600201324America/Chicago2013-12-24T09:36:39-06:0031vx12 by projectvxn because: (no reason given)

I can see where you're coming from but I'm afraid you are mistaken on some of your points...

You're saying the military is not being used as a tool for sociol construction in foreign lands? Seriously you believe this? I think it is quite interesting this coming from someone who is in the military as it gives us an insight to the phyche of a serviceman and their view on their role. This may be what you actually believe but as I think most will agree this is not the case.

No one is calling for overthrow by the military, you are missing the point. The military is the power, if the military refuses to oBey a frankly corrupt government which CLEARLY no longer has the interests of its people or anyone else for that matter as a concern then this would be enough for the possibility for change to occur. Are you really happy with how things are at the moment?

The argument that we are simply doing our job as dictated to us is frankly cowardice in my opinion. It is harder to stand up and say no, I will not do this because it is not right, than simply carry on like a sheep, following the herd wherever it may take you, ignoring your conciounse.

reply to post by Kamza

You're saying the military is not being used as a tool for sociol construction in foreign lands? Seriously you believe this?

No, this is what I said:

The military is here to fight and win the nations wars. PERIOD. We are not a governing body. We are not a political system. We are not Rulers. We are fighters. We are the sword of the nation and that is it. Many politicians have tried to use us as tools of social construction in foreign lands, they have tried to use us as police, the have tried to use us as interim rulers, and NOT ONCE has it bore success.

Nowhere in there did I say we were NOT used for such a purpose. Perhaps you should read it again.

No one is calling for overthrow by the military, you are missing the point. The military is the power, if the military refuses to oBey a frankly corrupt government which CLEARLY no longer has the interests of its people or anyone else for that matter as a concern then this would be enough for the possibility for change to occur.

Once the military strays outside of it's constitutional confines autonomously it will herald the coming of a military dictatorship. Be it by disobeying the orders of the civilian government or by outright overthrow. The effect will be the same.

Are you really happy with how things are at the moment?

Do you know anyone who is?

The argument that we are simply doing our job as dictated to us is frankly cowardice in my opinion.

Is the weight simply that heavy for you? Not only do you need the military to carry the weight of national defense for you, but you also need us to carry the weight of political power? When exactly do you take responsibility? Talk about cowardice.

From a Veteran,,, you just don't understand,,, it's not your fault,,, no, it's not my duty to explain it to you.

I think some of the previous responses are indicative of the problem.

So you are not happy with the status quo but you need to realise that it is your uniform that supports it, acts on its behest, and defends it.

I do not know you and frankly you are not in a position to say what I am or am not doing to effect a positive change, so lets not get bogged in pot shots. However I will reiterate that it is cowardice to follow orders when you know they are wrong. It is cowardice to continually support unjust and inhumane directives just because 'thats what I am ordered to do'. What each and every human being has is freedom of choice, you have the choice to do something or not do something.

There are numerous examples of servicemen who have spoken out and who have effected a positive change, who have come to the realisation that what they wanted to do and what they were actually doing were two different things. They started out as part of the problem, as stated in THEIR OWN testimonies, but then they became part of the solution...

Kamza
So you are not happy with the status quo but you need to realise that it is your uniform that supports it, acts on its behest, and defends it.

It's called a constitutional republic, in which the military is subservient to civilian elected authority. If you want a society in which the generals decide what ought to be done, perhaps you should move to Egypt.

The day that civilian authority is overruled by military authority is the end of our democratic republic. The only thing worse than soldiers 'just following orders' is soldiers deciding right and wrong instead of elected officials.

gladtobehere
reply to post by ShadeWolf

 

OP is correct but it doenst have to be a coup.

It can simply be the military refusing to obey unlawful orders, which would mean refusing to fight in almost every war the US has ever fought.

In addition to the military, domestic goon squads (I mean law enforcement), would need to do the same thing, disobey unlawful orders, something being advocated by the Oath Keepers.

edit on 24-12-2013 by gladtobehere because: wording

You have to be careful here. I would not lump law enforcement in the category of goon squad. The second largest force of arms, IE trained units is not the police units but the private players, blackwater etc. Since Iraq the private armies have exploded and many tried and battle tested young men left the service for the big bucks...
Often men who breakdown and get into trouble in service find new life in these new units. They still get to serve and get that adrenaline rush but now they get paid for it and no more strict rules to live by. Some of the service bad apples find there way back into the chit and that is OK with them.

These units could be problem, they are more likely to follow orders they might not agree with,. Losing generals don't mean jack, when you get down to major and below you get to actual control and relationships with soldiers.

Yep, you would have turned have the platoon leaders and even your non comms to make anything work. Sorry nodding off here.....
The Bot

yamammasamonkey
From a Veteran,,, you just don't understand,,, it's not your fault,,, no, it's not my duty to explain it to you.

OK this is one time I wish you would have used quotes so I know to who u you are talking to and about what lol.
From another brother in arms lol.

The Bot

reply to post by spartacus699


So which branch of the military were you in. Lol. It does matter. Jarheads for instance, are much more likely to fire on Americans than say regular army unit's. No it is not they are dumber, their training is more conducive for it. Grunts of the Marines have to be broken hard before they are built back up. That is so they take that order to be that first guy in the fray of all that hell fire coming at them when they they land on the beach.

Most units won't take that order but you will be surprised that how many will.

It's the blackwater freaks who will doing the dirty work. Let’s just hope there are enough regulars who stay the course and fight for the people.

Long live free world and god bless America.

The Bot

reply to post by Kamza

So you are not happy with the status quo but you need to realise that it is your uniform that supports it, acts on its behest, and defends it.

We sign up to fight and win the nations wars. It is NOT our job to question those wars. Do I like the fact that I'm in Afghanistan? No. Am I going to continue to do my job? You bet.

I do not know you and frankly you are not in a position to say what I am or am not doing to effect a positive change, so lets not get bogged in pot shots.

Indeed I don't know you. But I've heard this kind of crap before. "You don't know what I'm doing to effect positive change" and yet you continue to throw the ball in my court in order to absolve yourself of responsibility in this debate. For Example:

However I will reiterate that it is cowardice to follow orders when you know they are wrong. It is cowardice to continually support unjust and inhumane directives just because 'thats what I am ordered to do'. What each and every human being has is freedom of choice, you have the choice to do something or not do something.

You are under the impression that I would follow illegal orders blindly. I will not. The congress, whether you agree with their decision or not, authorized and has continued to authorize the campaign in Afghanistan. They, in turn, were elected by Americans to make those kinds of decisions. Every order I have been given while performing my duties has been legal. My ROE is very stringent and pointed so regardless of what you might think I take rockets and gun fire far more from the enemy than I give back.

There are numerous examples of servicemen who have spoken out and who have effected a positive change, who have come to the realisation that what they wanted to do and what they were actually doing were two different things.

Who? Who effected positive change by desertion or violating the UCMJ? Who? No one that's who. The Military is NOT going to change things. That isn't our job. Period.

They started out as part of the problem, as stated in THEIR OWN testimonies, but then they became part of the solution...

You have said these words a lot. What exactly is your notion of "solutions"? What is it exactly that you want me to do as a soldier in the Army that would make you happy?

projectvxn

You have said these words a lot. What exactly is your notion of "solutions"? What is it exactly that you want me to do as a soldier in the Army that would make you happy?

Tell everyone you know, either quit being a soldier or dont step on other people land as a soldier.

Changing the government require everyone, military or not, as long you are American, you have the power to do it. Why you discard the ability to change ? Brainwashed that much ? You are an American right ?

Real courage is deciding NOT to kill a person. You have any ? or would you like to resort to "I'm just a tool/sword" and just following the chosen government order?

A soldier protect, a killer attack, you are on somebody lawn without invitation. The locals smile you see is genuine, but they really prefer to smile at their own countrymen. As a soldier, at least have reason to kill with dignity for your country instead being a tool. The people there still going strong is the belief that they are the warrior of their country and they are right, even though situation are bad, they are still right. Can you say the same thing ?

I wonder if Congress want you to on your knees and open your mouth, would you do it ? You know the answer, you know what to do. Do your choice as an American, not as a tool.

To answer your question - Make US out from other people country, we got UN peace keepers to the job.

Sooner or later, the country your are stepping now will send its army to walk on your land, fancy that ?

reply to post by NullVoid

Tell everyone you know, either quit being a soldier or dont step on other people land as a soldier.

I do not have the right to tell others not to be in the military or to quit being in the military. As for stepping on others land. I go where the duly elected congress and president send me. Without a military subservient to its civilian elected leadership you will wind up with a rogue military. If you don't like the way things are either run for office or vote. Don't sit there and tell me to carry the weight for you just because I'm the in the military. That's ridiculous and you know it.

Changing the government require everyone, military or not, as long you are American, you have the power to do it. Why you discard the ability to change ? Brainwashed that much ? You are an American right ?

What I believed before joining the military and what I believe now are certainly different. But I am not brainwashed. You people have this Hollywood notion of what it is like to be a soldier. You have no damned clue what you're talking about. You're no different than the BS the media spreads about the military. You're a parrot. You repeat all the things you hear without verification.

Real courage is deciding NOT to kill a person.

Tell that to the next guy who points an RPG at you.

The people there still going strong is the belief that they are the warrior of their country and they are right, even though situation are bad, they are still right.

Most of the fighters out here are not even Afghans. They are Chechen, Pakistani, Iranian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Syrian. There are only about 20,000 of them or so left.

I wonder if Congress want you to on your knees and open your mouth, would you do it ?

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Leave your vulgarities at the door please.

To answer your question - Make US out from other people country, we got UN peace keepers to the job.

Who the hell do you think supplies and pays for those peacekeepers?

Sooner or later, the country your are stepping now will send its army to walk on your land, fancy that ?

projectvxn

I do not have the right to tell others not to be in the military or to quit being in the military. As for stepping on others land. I go where the duly elected congress and president send me. Without a military subservient to its civilian elected leadership you will wind up with a rogue military. If you don't like the way things are either run for office or vote. Don't sit there and tell me to carry the weight for you just because I'm the in the military. That's ridiculous and you know it.

I'm doing my job, waking up people about the matter. Since you are at the front, you have the most immediate access to the situation. Running for the office require tremendous sacrifice and even if succeeded, things are very hard to change, too many people too much trouble.

What I believed before joining the military and what I believe now are certainly different. But I am not brainwashed. You people have this Hollywood notion of what it is like to be a soldier. You have no damned clue what you're talking about. You're no different than the BS the media spreads about the military. You're a parrot. You repeat all the things you hear without verification.

Then you should be aware what you are doing now. I understood your dilemma, between your responsibility and personal choice, but do have a look from third perspective. Think why you are defending the country from other people country. We armchair warriors see things from different angle and at our own leisure time, and I personally dont like what the army doing. Much better to deploy to the Mexican border than to patrol some dessert. Let them kill each other if that what they want. There are peace keeper and UN.

Real courage is deciding NOT to kill a person.
Tell that to the next guy who points an RPG at you.

You got it the wrong way, its when you are holding it that it truly matter. The person you are shooting, truly believe he had the right to kill you. Dont kill or torture him, just let him go and he will be never dare to face you again. He owe you. He will be a change man later.
Be on the winning side at least once. Its easier to fight fire with water rather with fire as everybody told. Its hard to accept or even to do this when bullet flying around, thats why - ask to move away from that unit or quit.

Most of the fighters out here are not even Afghans. They are Chechen, Pakistani, Iranian, Saudi, Iraqi, and Syrian. There are only about 20,000 of them or so left.

You probably are correct, but then, you also not a local, fair ? What more important is stopping the war, but look what is happening, it goes longer than anyone expect. Its what the boss want, its in the plan, and you guys executing the plan. Dont worry about it, even after you return or returned, the plan will still go on. But if enough people on the front say "I dont sign up for this" we might make a difference.

What the hell is this supposed to mean? Leave your vulgarities at the door please.

I'm sorry to say that to you. I should not say that to you. Let me redo the situation.
I congress/president/boss/IC said that person is an enemy, he clearly planted the IED, evidence is clear, he need to be shot dead, would you shoot him ? You know the answer, keep it to yourself.

Who the hell do you think supplies and pays for those peacekeepers?

I dont know, UN which is not US ? and it consist of various countries ? and it doesnot have grudge ? and it have minimal political motives ? and... uhh so much difference.

Sooner or later, the country your are stepping now will send its army to walk on your land, fancy that ?

nice answer. Dont worry, they still did not do that, despite what the news have said about 911 etc etc, not yet and not needed. but, why wait when you can avoid now ?

Lets say the person who plant the IED, he was told to do that by his commander, his mother and friends think he is one of the country hero, he think he is doing good job forcing you out from the country, he sell bread near your location and sometimes begs to have a something from the troop as souvenir, his age - 13. You have made your choice above, will you shoot him ? It doesnt matter his age or intention or whether he realized it or not, the order is to kill him.

When all this end, you will return, and when your grandchildren aged 8, you suddenly remember him and it all will come back to haunt you. This is why the vets remember Vietnam and it still haunt because, the most darnnest thing in universe is - regret.

Have a good day