The 10,000 year old civilization which was more advanced than us

Chakotay says:

"As for looking at Nagasaki, try looking at Rongelap Atoll instead. The toys used in Japan are an order of magnitude less powerful than thermonuclear bombs. Rongelap simply disappeared. Radionuclides decay. And the ancients may have been using a different technology that would leave very little long-term radioactivity"

I grew up in the Marshalls and Caroline Islands, living in Micronesia until I was 17. I also scuba dive fairly regularly and know that Rongelap, Eniwetok, and Bikini are now major dive spots where we can actually dive the wrecke of the American ships which were within 500 meters of ground zero.

And radionucleides decay, all right, but any nuclear explosion leaves isotopes hanging around some of which have half-lives measured in thousands of years.

Finally, if there were a nuclear explosion, the effect of the explosion on things like rocks would provide a very long-term record of the incident. remember, it is in India that we still see, 65 million years later, the volcanic deformation of the Deccan Traps, a volcanic epoch which may have been triggered by the Chicxulub Strike in Yucatan.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
I also scuba dive fairly regularly and know that Rongelap, Eniwetok, and Bikini are now major dive spots where we can actually dive the wrecks of the American ships which were within 500 meters of ground zero.

Fair enough. But what will remain of those iron ships in 11,000 years? The radiation has already decayed significantly after fifty some years as your dives show. As far as residual radiation goes, try a search on Penning Traps- if you aren't wary of echelon. Antimatter assisted fusion would not leave the decay products you are familiar with. My dad sunk a lot of those ships- a lot farther away from Ground Zero than 500 meters as he recalls- as a US Navy fire controlman onboard the USS Bremerton, after the tests. The Ancient War could have taken place more than 11,000 thousand years B.C.E. for all we know- if it ever happened at all

Edit- went back and did my homework, OTS. Rongelap was a fallout target, not ground zero. Bikini Atoll was Ground Zero: Three Islands were vaporized during the nuclear tests: Bokonijien, Aerokojlol, and Nam. That's what I get for using my memory. See how things that actually happened turn legendary in only fifty years? BTW, aren't the Marshalls part of the ancient Hindu Pacific? Hmmmm...


[edit on 19-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Chakotay: do you have a source / citation for Einstein studying/being inspired by the kabbalah etc.? I'm asking because I've read several biographies and don't remember that being mentioned in any of them.

In any case: following the links got me here (on the steven knapp page):

From the Deccan Chronicle

HYDERABAD, INDIA, April 29, 2002: Recent studies suggests a link between Indus Valley and Mayans of Central America. The studies focused on the calendars of the two advanced civilizations. The Indus Valley inhabitants followed a calender based on the movements of Jupiter, and the Mayans followed one based on the Venus. In the Puranas, a secondary Hindu scripture, Jupiter, Brihaspati, was acknowledged to be the leader of the gods, while Venus, Shukra, was the leader of the asuras. The texts further state that the devas and asuras lived on opposite sides of the Earth. Mexico and India are at opposite sides in longitude. The correspondences were pointed out by B. G. Siddarth, director of the B. M. Birla Science Centre in Hyderabad. He also said the Hindu story of the churning of the ocean has been found in carvings in Mexico, as well Mayan representations of a tortoise carrying twelve pillars similar to Indian illustrations. Dr. Ganapati Sthapati of Chennai, a foremost expert on Vastu Shatra, the ancient Hindu architecture, has visited the Mayan structures in Central America and found many similarities between the design and construction methods of the Mayans and that of the ancient Hindus

Let's assume for a second this isn't total bs; I'd be curious to know what (if anything) are the similarities Ganapati Sthapati is claiming between ancient Indian and Mayan architecture. Do any of the experts on the board have any guess what connections this guy is thinking he's found? (I'm hoping it's not "stone walls"...) Is there anything in Mayan architecture that it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say resembles Indian architecture from around that time period?

I'm already skeptical b/c the time periods aren't lining up. experts?

Originally posted by sisonek
Chakotay: do you have a source / citation for Einstein studying/being inspired by the kabbalah etc.? I'm asking because I've read several biographies and don't remember that being mentioned in any of them.

I'd be curious to know what (if anything) are the similarities Ganapati Sthapati is claiming between ancient Indian and Mayan architecture.
I'm already skeptical b/c the time periods aren't lining up.

Quick answers here: will go get details on Einstein and add them as an edit to this post. The time periods are not lining up with regards to a LOT of American dates, precisely because the accuracy of dating methods are being called into account now, publicly. We've ALWAYS had to give the Laboratories a 'Ballpark Figure' for dates or they won't assay. We've tried giving them bogus 'ballparks' to see what would happen with known dated samples, and guess what: we got back bogus numbers. The whole chronology of the New World is suspect, stuff may be WAY older than 'accepted'. As far as India/Maya conections go, India would love to have Indiginous claim to the Americas. I am always skeptical, especially of myself, so I can't say I support this yet. The temples do remind me faintly of Khmer (Cambodia). Especially the lotus-seated Astronomers in Alcoves. Will research this; there is a disputed-age stone statue of Maize in an Indian Temple in India.

On Einstein: Jewish Influence in Modern Thought. There, that works now.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Originally posted by Chakotay
Funny thing. NASA has spent a lot of money both on ground penetrating radar studies of Giza

Yes. Requested by and paid for scientists and governments not affiliated with NASA. NASA isn't interested in the studies, though they are interested in the income.

, and on wind tunnel testing of the Egyptian 'Bird Model'.

Do you have a NASA link for this? One that shows that they're testing this because it offers modeling and design options that they haven't tested yet?

BTW, here's a link to DUAT and the Duat.

Are you trying to maintain that they are using an ancient oracle to get this informatin? I'd argue that this isn't true. In fact, I'd maintain that they came up with the system and someone knew/remembered/heard about the old Duat and named it that in honor of the ancient oracle.

And that there is no further connection.

In fact, I think that if you write them, you will find that this is true.

Albert Einstein, as we all know, was Jewish.

Of Jewish parents. He, himself (as he says in his own words) was agnostic/weakly Deist. As he says in his own words:

"My position concerning God is that of an agnostic. I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment

www.godandscience.org...

He was a student of Kabballa, and he was convinced the Bible contained encoded scientific truths from a past Civilization. He credited his idea of Relativity to stories in the Bible of Time Dilatation as in the phrase 'to the LORD a thousand years is as a single day'.

How about a citation to prove this from one of Einstein's writings? I see an interest in Zionism but not in the Kabbalah. Nor do I see any strong interest in using the Bible to prove anything by Einstein.

Citations?

We ignore 'religious texts' at our peril.

And we OVERemphasize them at a greater peril.

As for looking at Nagasaki, try looking at Rongelap Atoll instead. The toys used in Japan are an order of magnitude less powerful than thermonuclear bombs. Rongelap simply disappeared. Radionuclides decay. And the ancients may have been using a different technology that would leave very little long-term radioactivity.

But it would leave other traces; a LOT of other traces. Civilizations don't just "vanish"; they leave artifacts, and where they existed the very nature of the soil is changed drastically.

There ARE no such other traces.

(sheesh... I'm not picking on you, Chakotay... it's just that your posts are nice and meaty and good for debate material.)

Originally posted by Chakotay The time periods are not lining up with regards to a LOT of American dates, precisely because the accuracy of dating methods are being called into account now, publicly.

(sigh) Once more, from the Archaeological Basis: Radiocarbon dates are not the be-all and end-all. When people see that we've "dated" something they IMMEDIATELY think "radiocarbon dating" and run off to recite the already well-known issues on radiocarbon dating.

Material for important or controversial sites are always dated by a number of methods. Here's a list of the most common. Please note that contained in some of the links are MORE references to still more types of dating:
www.archaeolink.com...

The whole chronology of the New World is suspect, stuff may be WAY older than 'accepted'.

Point of curiosity... just how old do you THINK we think the material is? And what proofs are you using?

On Einstein: Jewish Influence in Modern Thought. There, that works now.

...but not the influence of Judaism on Einstein's thoughts.

where can i find a copy of the sanskrit anti-gravity book? is there any other proof you can give other than the links that you have already posted? I'm at the middle of the road on this-- i don't believe it actually but there are still alot of things that need to be explained... ex... the glass that supposedly was the result of a nuclear blast

Chakotay says:

"But what will remain of those iron ships in 11,000 years?"

That's a good question. I know that we are finding remnants of biremes sunk in the Mediterranean over two thousand years ago. Glass from the portholes, china, some coins -- there are alot of things that seem capable of lasting for a long time in or out of water.

And here's one that none of the Atlantis-boys have thought of: Rebar. Metal reinforced concrete should last for tens of thousands of years, simply because the iron is actually encapsulated in "rock" (concrete). Yet we've never found any such. Why not?

"Antimatter assisted fusion would not leave the decay products you are familiar with."

Yes, but now you're making a further assumption -- that these guys existed and now they came up with something that's only theoretically possible.

Remember Occam's Razor, Chakotay!

"The Ancient War could have taken place more than 11,000 thousand years B.C.E. for all we know- if it ever happened at all."

Sure, it could have. But if you go back even further you start to contradict tons and tons of evidence about Homo sapiens sapiens existing before they came on the scene in Europe.

"Rongelap was a fallout target, not ground zero. Bikini Atoll was Ground Zero: Three Islands were vaporized during the nuclear tests: Bokonijien, Aerokojlol, and Nam."

Marshallese legends talk of the two brothers, Rongerik and Rongelap, who pulled the atolls up from the sea using a fish-hook made from a huge tortoise shell.

I lived on Majuro as a little kid, and visited Arno, Likiep, and Kwajalein Atolls-- but never Bikini or Eniwetok.

"BTW, aren't the Marshalls part of the ancient Hindu Pacific?"

Not that I know of. There is certainly no commonality of legends or linguistics of which I'm aware. Marshallese is one of seven (or eight depending on whether you count Mortlockese as a separate language) malay dialects in what was then the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands and is now the Republic of theMarshall Islands, Federated States of Micronesia, and the Republic of Belau (or Palau as it used to be called).

And, unfortunately, I have never dived in Bikini or Eniwetok; I have friends who have. However, my wife and I are planning on going to Truk and Majuro in 2006 -- if senility hasn't set in -- and do some diving then.

Originally posted by Byrd
(sheesh... I'm not picking on you, Chakotay... it's just that your posts are nice and meaty and good for debate material.)

Thank you for the compliment! I come here to debate, would be disappointed if you didn't question my statements. I myself do not believe any hypothesis, not even my own. I enjoy our talks, Byrd. The world is more interesting with you in it- and I have a thick skin

On Einstein: Jewish Influence in Modern Thought. There, that works now.
Byrd: ...but not the influence of Judaism on Einstein's thoughts.

Now this I don't want you to take on my word either. Einstein lived in two worlds, one very private and one very public. If he had let any hint of mysticism hit the press, his scientific carreer would have been over. He near the end of his carreer uttered the now-famous 'G-d does not play dice'. But there is much more: Albert Einstein on Zionism. Einstein was very active in the founding of the State of Israel, opposing some of the methods but not the existance of the State. He thought this the prophetic destiny of Israel. In fact he was offered the second Presidency of the State of Israel but declined the offer. He was deeply, privately, Qabbalistically religious. I will research and see if I can find you more extensive evidence of this, such as private correspondence, beyond my retelling of what I have heard from the Rabbis at Hillel.

OffTheStreet, you have a good soul. You do not have to worry about senility- at least one old man has prayed for you a long and fulfilling life. It is a privilege to know you. And to see your photos, and hear your stories.

About the Bird, I will see if I can talk more about it. I am still under obligations as a former contractor.

Back to topic, I see these legends of a former civilization to be a great inspiration to many cultures, spurring development of our modern world. I only hope and pray that the terrible forces described in the Mahabarata, the Book of Genesis, the Tsalagi and other legends will never be unleashed in our world. We all need to talk more, to be flexible to the idea that we may not have all the answers but that we want everyone to live through the argument. I think the great lesson of the Mahabarata is that once we abandon the idea of live and let live, people die. And there is no reason for that in an Infinite Universe.

I, too would appreciate a reference to the original source text for the Legend of the Vimana- I believe it was first written in the late 19th to early 20th century. But I am not sure.

[edit on 20-11-2004 by Chakotay]

Gentlemen:

Take one look at the surfaces of the other worlds in this solar system. Did you think we lived in a safe, stable place? There are constant destructions and cataclysms brought to whole worlds, Mars is a perfect example of this. it was totally destroyed, and made into an extinct world.

many of you have cited the Timaeus from Plato's Dialogues. The tale related by Solon to the Greeks is of very great importance. The Egyptians told Solon that the Greek historians were little more than children, and their tale of the world-wide flood that marked the beginning of their history was merely the latest in a very long cycle of global cataclysms. Some, they said, came from fire, others water. Many others were minor in nature.

It is rather naive of us to assume that earth, and earth only, does not bear the marks of the violence of this solar system. Her face hides many things because of the action of water and waves, but you need but look at the fossil record to see that life has endured many great calamities, even to the point of removing most of the living creatures from the planet.

The point is that the ancients recognized the CYCLIC nature of these destructions. The tales and myths that you have written about here come from the dramatizations of these histories passed down through the generations of this current epoch. It is true what many of you suspect: There WAS advanced civilization on this earth before. How advanced? I think it safe to say that they did not achieve space travel, or at least to the point of leaving artifacts that are visible on other worlds. They left no traces of an advanced industrial society. The patterns of mining and mineral processing on the surface would also give us the impression that there NEVER has been an industrial global society on this world before, because such a thing would require a similar level of material processing and manufacture to support. I think that mankind has become widespread many times before in the past, but never attaining the degree of technical mastery as ours has done.


The events surrounding the "nuclear war" sound suspiciously like airbursts from comets or meteorites. They explode with the force of several megatons, more than enough to vaporize cities. Take for example the Tunguska blast of 1908. It could easily have been written of in the Vedas as the "fiery bolts of Shiva decimating cities and men," or other such manifestations of deity.

In truth, I believe the histories to contain highly stylized renderings of historical events. In fact, Solon relates this interpretation to us from the Egyptians, who said the same things themselves of the histories the Greeks maintained. One of the more curious passages in the Timaeus is where Solon relates the story of the time when a lesser god took the chariot of Apollo without the God's permission, and being unable to control the horses path, caused the sun to descend too close to the earth, burning it up and making the sun move around strangely in the sky. The Egyptian priest said clearly that this story was not the doing of any such god, but was actually an event where the heavens changed their declination in the sky, which would indicate a sudden movement of the earth about it's axis.

I have speculated that these types of movements are actually quite common, and they result in massive floods and tidal waves inundating the entire globe. The last time this happened was the end of the last era of civilization, and from this we get the common stories of the flood which are common to all major cultures.

It is probably going to happen again. And we can be sure of other types of disasters, such as impacts. Just look at the number of craters in the solar system. It is a common and regular thing.

Food for thought.

It looks like the "vimana handbook" shouldn't be too hard to find: if you read the reviews here

Childre ss's book on amazon.com

apparently Mr. Childress reproduces a translation of the manual in this book (I'm not vouching for the veracity, just sayin' it's there). I really like the comment one of the viewers left, so I'm going to quote it here:

The old manuel references materials and methods that leave the reader still confused because many terms are undefined though they are translated. plus it almost seems some of the aircraft were too decoratively constructed to be be actually funtional. I can make a drawing of a giant dumbo elephant plane complete with instructions but that does not mean it will actually fly. It's also hard to determine if the original ancient authors may have only intended these manuals to be part of the legends and fantasy of the mahabah...however-you-spell-it battle. like a indian "lord of the rings" trilogy. But, you may ask, do we go through the trouble of publishing diagrams and manuals for euipment and ships that are just part of a fantasy? Yes we do. Go to a well stocked bookstore and look up the "star trek" technical manuals. However, many legends are based on seeds of fact. And it would be foolish to assume that ancient poeple were not capable of developing tech. advances-even to the point of flight. But, this book does not seperate the Fantasy & Fact. It seems to not allow for possibility of fantasy just fact.

Also:

another vimana book

"Nazi terror weapons: from V-1 to vimana" might have stuff. I don't have either of these books and can't speak to either of them.

If the Chinese did find an antigravity text in Lhasa, I doubt they're sharing it, and I also doubt that news of it would have made its way out of China very easily, so I'm not betting too much money on their having found such a book.

Finally, thanks for pulling up the Einstein links, Chakotay; I can't see that they offer any evidence -- or even make a claim -- that Einstein drew on the Qabbalah for inspiration, however.

[edited for formatting]

[edit on 21-11-2004 by sisonek]

[edit on 21-11-2004 by sisonek]

Well, you people want proofs for what I have claimed, maybe a website that contains such text? I am already the webmaster of a successful aviation website and could have added a lot over there and directed you. But the thing is, internet it self at times not very reliable, so forget Pravda, I m skeptic of most websites out there.

I have said in the very begining that this is just a theory that I am propogating. I would just like to make a few statements to those who have been on stiff denial of it.

As a matter of fact, we don't have a proof for maximum scientific claims. Can you prove me that the earth is made up of a molten lava core? How deep have we dug till date? Thats only 13KM that too in Kola Peninsula. Have you had any proof of the Black Holes when they were first proposed? But how we prove it is using some other proven facts...

We tend to carefully listen what Stephen Hawkin says in his speeches (although most of it could be termed BS since there is no proof at all... and that guy Stephen tends to disregard his own theories some time later) but we listen and take it for granted. Most do, because that is exactly what you want to hear. About the ends of the universe, time etc. But when you hear of a civilization with scientific advancements, you don't want to believe and try to find excuses. The reason is that it is not something you were expecting, not something that you wanted to know about.

The debris and stuff...
I don't believe that anything would have been left of Hiroshima or Nagasaki if it was left as it is for another 200 years... you wouldn't see a single darn sign that anything existed. About the nuclear evidence, I think we learned it in schools that Mohen Jodaro was dead 5000 years back. Do you expect to find radioactive remains after thousands of years? And as a matter of fact, Discovery channel did say in its episodes that radioactive remains were found.

Slashpepper,
The vedas and ancient shastras have come down to us vocally, we know this very well, and it was documented later. That is in the so called IRon Age. Vedas have passed among the ages vocally by the survivors of the armageddon.

Apart from that, i wonder how much the scientific community has been able to solve of the Egyptian Pyramids, or the indian architectures. We have the Iron Pillar in New Delhi, which hasn't caught rust for hundreds of years, whereas samples show that it is made of crude iron(wrought iron)... Today's science can't explain the science of recent past... leave alone that of a civilization thousands of years back.

I also agree this theory is a bit far fetched. If a civilization was advanced enough to produce nuclear weapons, then they sure as heck had the technology to transport themselves out of harms way. I believe we would see evidence of their culture on different continents, not just limited to the Indus region. Somebody would have left something around, only to be discovered later. If we are in the nuclear age, and we have the technology to discover and dig up ancient cities, they would have had the same technology to try and protect theirs.

AH! and what made the Japanese not run from Hiroshima and Nagasaki before the crime of the century was committed? They had ships and air balloons. Well, obviously it happened without any warning. Enemy attacks without warning.

There is no evidence of the sudden disappearance of the Atlantis, Mohen Jodaro, Harrappa etc.
There must have had happened something more than just a natural calamity.

Can anyone explain me how could the people existing 1000s of years back having 'no scientific knowledge' could describe the effects of a Nuclear explosion? The weapon called the 'Brahmastra' was the most deadly weapon of the time. Although time tells that it was used only once and caused a devastation never seen before. The description of such nuclear weapons are also found in the Atlantis civilization.
Again what in the world would cause an 'early science fiction writer' think that the flying chariots which were cigar shaped were driven on a bright ray of light and made a sound of roaring thunder? I don't hear such accurate description of a rockets even in the fairy tails.

Now to make another interesting point, Indians were the first in recent times to INVENT THE EARLY ROCKETS.
If you go and check some good book on rocketry, the king of Mysore, Tipu Sultan used rockets against the british in war. The british had been speaking of killing indians like flies before the battle, and when they came in, they faced the nightmare of their life. Apparently Tipu Sultan wanted to keep this rocket technology secret. But unfortunately after he lost the war, this rocket tech of his was also lost... no other king after him was heard of using this.

www.daviddarling.info... (just for intro)

www.tippusultan.net...

And radionucleides decay, all right, but any nuclear explosion leaves isotopes hanging around some of which have half-lives measured in thousands of years.

And how many years back did Mohen Jodaro exist? thousands of years ain't it?

Most of you yourself tell that some advanced kind of things are being discovered as remains of a civilization thousands of years back... but those things get ridiculed by the society as 'some kind of junk'. I do believe that the previous civilization was not supposedly very good at semiconductors (electronics industry) since no such descriptions are found, but the fact is apparent that they had excellent knowledge of chemistry, quantum physics and astrology.

Anyway, another thing... Suppose Mahabharata is science-fiction. But the Dwarika, the city of Krishna, was recently discovered at the exact coordinates specified in the Mahabharata. Dwarika has been found under the sea, you can please search on it. Its considered the next great archeological discovery after Troy.

Anyway can anyone please tell me why people here believe that the ancient civilizations couldn't be scientifically advanced? Not being able to find its traces is not an excuse... can i have an intelligent reason?

[edit on 21-11-2004 by CaptainRon]

Originally posted by CaptainRon
And thats how most of them turn it down.

This has been an attitude not only by you, but maximum out there.
I hate to say this, but the WTC were reduced down to a pile of dust by two airliners...

What would have remained out of them even after 1000 years?

No scripture is written "IN HAND" for no reason. You believe in Bible don't you? You believe in Jesus don't you? Would you disregard his existence and power just because you have no visual proof remaining?

Well... as I say... its mind set. We believe that technological advancement has been linear.

Now if in 500 years we could develop so much... they existed centuries back.

And yes about the Mr. Scientist... a nuclear winter will last for years!!! Its unlikely he will come out of his hiding place soon to do any kind of show biz work apart from filling his stomach.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by CaptainRon]

By two airliners? I think not.. there were explosives inside the building.. remember the "OTHER OTHER" explosion? ..

Originally posted by sisonek
It looks like the "vimana handbook" shouldn't be too hard to find: if you read the reviews here

www.amazon.com...=1101016450/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/102-4694666-1364953?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
apparently Mr. Childress reproduces a translation of the manual in this book (I'm not vouching for the veracity, just sayin' it's there). I really like the comment one of the viewers left, so I'm going to quote it here:

The old manuel references materials and methods that leave the reader still confused because many terms are undefined though they are translated. plus it almost seems some of the aircraft were too decoratively constructed to be be actually funtional. I can make a drawing of a giant dumbo elephant plane complete with instructions but that does not mean it will actually fly. It's also hard to determine if the original ancient authors may have only intended these manuals to be part of the legends and fantasy of the mahabah...however-you-spell-it battle. like a indian "lord of the rings" trilogy. But, you may ask, do we go through the trouble of publishing diagrams and manuals for euipment and ships that are just part of a fantasy? Yes we do. Go to a well stocked bookstore and look up the "star trek" technical manuals. However, many legends are based on seeds of fact. And it would be foolish to assume that ancient poeple were not capable of developing tech. advances-even to the point of flight. But, this book does not seperate the Fantasy & Fact. It seems to not allow for possibility of fantasy just fact.

Also:

www.amazon.com...=1101016450/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i4_xgl14/102-4694666-1364953?v=glance&s=books&n=507 846

"Nazi terror weapons: from V-1 to vimana" might have stuff. I don't have either of these books and can't speak to either of them.

If the Chinese did find an antigravity text in Lhasa, I doubt they're sharing it, and I also doubt that news of it would have made its way out of China very easily, so I'm not betting too much money on their having found such a book.

Finally, thanks for pulling up the Einstein links, Chakotay; I can't see that they offer any evidence -- or even make a claim -- that Einstein drew on the Qabbalah for inspiration, however.

Sisonek seems to be quoting reviews from foolish people...
if you read this one, by a person WORKING IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY... and not some-kinda-home-gardner says,

having read this book thoroughly i appreciate the effort done by the auther.i also translated the same book in technical english,the book is very informative,it simplified many equipments and systems to prevent the viman from natural hezards,to supply enery from natural sources.i whole heartedly appriciate him.since last 32 years ,i was working in an industry manufacturing supersonic fighter aircrafts,having adventage of technical knowledge and command on sanskrit,i can suggest a few addendums if the auther can enter them in his next revised addition, i wish every technical men should read this book.

another one worth quoting:

The author/editor provides us with a translation of ancient texts from India which purport to describe aircraft construction and operation. He then makes comments about the subject, including excerpts from related works. The point is that, according to Childress and others, the ancient civilization of India had made technological advances equaling and perhaps surpassing our own before it was mysteriously destroyed--perhaps in a nuclear war! I'm dubious, but his evidence is compelling nevertheless.

well give up on ur ignorant attitude guys!

Thank you for your kind words, Chakotay. I have learned a LOT from debating everyone (and come up with some stuff that startles the profs.) I(my poor profs!)

Originally posted by Chakotay
Now this I don't want you to take on my word either. Einstein lived in two worlds, one very private and one very public.

Agreed, and certainly agreed on his lifelong interest in Zionism.

However, I see no sources anywhere (credible ones) that show his interest in the Qabbala. Furthermore, I think his approach to science and physics is rather different than the mystic's approach. Those with a more mystical bent to their researches will tend to write about it in journals or document it in letters to friends, talking about how their findings fit in with the picture of the universe as they see it.

This would have been easily accessible material, coming to light after his death. I don't see any indication of this, though I could be persuaded elsewhere by something with good documentation and provenance.

Back to topic, I see these legends of a former civilization to be a great inspiration to many cultures, spurring development of our modern world.

As do I -- but I ALSO see them as something too often used to justify cultural imperialism and the dominance of one culture over the others. The old ways were good back then, but they never had to deal with the issues that we do in the here and now.

I think we need new legends that show us the way forward and not the old tired one of "Well, things get out of hand and man was just playing god and everything went *KABOOM!*" I think we can do far better than that. Other leaps in technology didn't wipe us out.

And that, to my mind is the disservice that the religious stories give. They say "leave things at the status quo" (if we did, we'd still be stoning people suspected of adultery and keeping slaves.) They say "progress is evil and if you put technology in the hands of us shaved monkeys, we'll just destroy the world."

I think we need a new paradigm. The "Star Trek" one works for me, BTW -- that new technologies take us out and forward and that we change as our society changes and we don't manage to destroy ourselves, our planet, or anything else in the process.

I, too would appreciate a reference to the original source text for the Legend of the Vimana- I believe it was first written in the late 19th to early 20th century. But I am not sure.

That would be the "flying manual" and you're right. I did look up the references and the book was written in the 1950's. I did some extended research on "vimanas" and found that it's just another name for a temple roof and according to what's written, the demons were simply flying around by levitating roofs.

I saw no mention of fuel or other things in the original texts. (disclaimer: I don't read Hindu.)

Originally posted by Arkaleus
It is true what many of you suspect: There WAS advanced civilization on this earth before. How advanced? I think it safe to say that they did not achieve space travel, or at least to the point of leaving artifacts that are visible on other worlds. They left no traces of an advanced industrial society.

There's just one starship-sized hole in this concept, though: it assumes that humans went from wandering around the landscape in groups, knapping flints to a non-detectable society that was suddenly advanced beyond anything seen before in the space of a heartbeat. That they didn't first collect in small groups and then form small villages and then form small cities and so on and so forth. That one day Og the Cavewoman walked outsie, looked up at the stars, and said "I think I'll invent the microchip today. I need a cleanroom as well and some soldering technology and electron microscopes and clean clothing and ventilation systems and the proper ores and materials for plastics -- but Yog can do the plastics, I think and Zippy can have me an electron microscope and electricity by sundown."

That, frankly, isn't believable.

And you underestimate just how much an impact civilizations leave. People lose stuff, drop stuff, bury stuff (graveyards and so forth), and their vehicles leave traces that are detectable. It's not that hard here in Texas to find traces of the American Indians that lived several thousand years ago (arrowhead finds are common.) The concept of a Magic Civilization that leaves no trace really isn't defensible.

I think that mankind has become widespread many times before in the past, but never attaining the degree of technical mastery as ours has done.

Again, you knock holes into your own theory because these less masterful civilizations would leave all kinds of traces. Garbage dumps, for one.

In truth, I believe the histories to contain highly stylized renderings of historical events. In fact, Solon relates this interpretation to us from the Egyptians, who said the same things themselves of the histories the Greeks maintained.

Source, please? I have a number of Egyptian texts lying around and there's nothing of the sort in the ones I have. Perhaps you could point me to the manuscript?

One of the more curious passages in the Timaeus is where Solon relates the story of the time when a lesser god took the chariot of Apollo without the God's permission, and being unable to control the horses path, caused the sun to descend too close to the earth, burning it up and making the sun move around strangely in the sky. The Egyptian priest said clearly that this story was not the doing of any such god, but was actually an event where the heavens changed their declination in the sky, which would indicate a sudden movement of the earth about it's axis.

Source? As far as I know, this is never mentioned in any texts. I'd like to see a link to the original so I could read it, please.

Originally posted by CaptainRon
well give up on ur ignorant attitude guys!

I'm speaking strictly from my own personal point of view, based on my short time here, so take it for what it's worth.

This thread demonstrates how not to advance a theory on ATS. Specifically, it is inadvisable to push a theory with almost no substantiation and then insult and denigrate those who don't buy everything you say hook, line and sinker.

If you are looking for honest criticism and discussion about your theories, ATS can offer that, and there are some excellent skeptics here as this thread documents.

On the other hand, if you are looking for credulous dupes who will believe anything you post, yes we have those too, but they are tolerated as nuisances, not deified, and will abandon your wild theory as soon as something even whackier comes along, so even that would be only a temporary "victory".

If you are in the mood to deny ignorance, I recommend starting with the captain in the mirror.

You may find this thread a disappointment, but I see it as a sign that ATS is not lost yet. The day someone can come along, post something like this and find universal agreement, then ATS will have truly failed to deny ignorance.

As for the topic, I find it very interesting, but without more coherent substantiation from sources that stand up to reasonable scrutiny, it's just another theory among millions of theories.

sisonek, please be so kind as to shorten the titles of the URLs you posted.

Excessively long URL titles screw up the page formatting, as demonstrated here, making the page hard to read and potentially driving readers away.

CaptainRon may also need to shorten the names of these URLs as quoted.



[edit on 11/21/2004 by Majic]

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Can someone PLEASE fix these margins? (please? ) This is a great discussion but it's killing me to read it....

...I tend to agree that humanity has reached astounding heights in the past, and that evidence has been erased by 'natural processes' like earthquakes, ice sheets and molecular breakdown.

...I also agree with Byrd's point that standard religious paradigms are used to entrench the status quo (or whatever he actually said), and that 1) this is dangerous, and 2) highlights the need for a new paradigm.

...More specifically, I do see an "ancient battle" - between two factions: one dedicated to establishing and maintaining an elite ruling class, and the other to educating and nurturing all humanity to be considered equal.

...Usury, religions, medical and other conspiracies, and other "tools" and methods are built or appropriated to further the 'ancient agenda,' by both sides. and the pendulum keeps swinging. Main point - any tool can be mis-used.

...As much as evidence exists to show negative conspiracies, I think many things can be interpreted to show ongoing historical efforts to mitigate these negative influences, maintain balance.

...For example, Christianity served this purpose before it was institutionalized.

So Byrd, with or without 'technological advance,' consider that our predecessors may have been very wise, and educated in the ways of the world. They understood the 'enemy,' the dynamics of individual, social and cultural development, and worked with skill to better the human species. ...Unfortunately, reality being what it is, the work begins anew with each generation. Thus was born the "myth" of Sisyphus.

I suspect you are focusing exclusively on the appropriated and pathogenic permutations of ancient traditions - not that these are not real, but a bit of 'mining' might find gold. Ie., Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

...all off the top of my head. Hope it's a reasonable contribution. ...Thanks for the thread and discussion here.



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There's just one starship-sized hole in this concept, though: it assumes that humans went from wandering around the landscape in groups, knapping flints to a non-detectable society that was suddenly advanced beyond anything seen before in the space of a heartbeat. That they didn't first collect in small groups and then form small villages and then form small cities and so on and so forth. That one day Og the Cavewoman walked outsie, looked up at the stars, and said "I think I'll invent the microchip today. I need a cleanroom as well and some soldering technology and electron microscopes and clean clothing and ventilation systems and the proper ores and materials for plastics -- but Yog can do the plastics, I think and Zippy can have me an electron microscope and electricity by sundown."

That, frankly, isn't believable.

Well in that case... ask ur grand dad (if alive yet) or else dad that what he was used to when he was 10 yr old
and what's the world like now, for him...?
Even in our case its like the cave women...
Dude... timeline has been very long comprising of thousands of years!
what makes you think that out of 10,000 years this recent 100 years were all that man got civilised in...
anyway...