Isn't it about time space capable nations united?

So I know it has been a while since I posted anything but thats partly because I Have been following various space programs and missions like mars one and the orion spacecraft. I think because of the recent intrest in beyond low earth orbit exploration expressed by other countries, it feels like if everyone who is capable of manned space flight should form a sort of united nations space exploration. It's a common goal right? Which would make it a good reason for nations to work more together on it.

If the nations with human space flight unionized so to speak, there would be little budget problems like what nasa and other space programs are experiencing currently because of the rough economy and decisions made by Congress. Just emagin the resources all of those nations if they could join together. A crewed mission to the moon again and mars for the first time would be a breeze this decade if that were to happen say 40 or 50 years ago. We might have things like artifical gravity devices and large crewed spacecraft capable of reaching all of the plannets in the solar system by now if this happened before the spacerace in the 50's and 60's.

What I'm implying is similar to the agreement between Russia and the United States and their participation in the International Space Station but on a bigger and more cooperative scale. It just sounds like something that would make things easier and better for countries interested in space flight and space exploration. If you think about it a united space exploration agency would possibly have a trillionish dollor annual budget. It might even improve international issues countries experience all the time. Its just something other countries should look into if we as humans want a good place in space exploration in the future.

paranormal78
So I know it has been a while since I posted anything but thats partly because I Have been following various space programs and missions like mars one and the orion spacecraft. I think because of the recent intrest in beyond low earth orbit exploration expressed by other countries, it feels like if everyone who is capable of manned space flight should form a sort of united nations space exploration.

Well the UN actually has the United Nations Office for Outer Space Affairs. It's been around since 1962. Just having an office doesn't mean much if there is no leadership though. So who leads?

It's a common goal right? Which would make it a good reason for nations to work more together on it.

That's kind of what the ISS was built for. It was as much a political decision as an economic one in recognition that going forward we'll all have to work together up there.

The biggest obstacle in getting everyone together are paranoid ideas about China in the US. That being said, around the time the ISS is being de-orbited into the Pacific Ocean sometime between 2020-2028, China's 3rd generation space station will be opening up and they have repeatedly stated they want that station to be an international one.

If the nations with human space flight unionized so to speak, there would be little budget problems like what nasa and other space programs are experiencing currently because of the rough economy and decisions made by Congress.

Why stop at human flight? There are plenty of space capable nations. Over 70 countries have some form of space agency. And 13 of those nations have the capability to launch.

A lot can be done in space by nations without their own capability to launch or fund a manned launch program. Several of them have contributed to the ISS such as Canada, Japan and the EU and to interplanetary probes. (ie: the Huygens probe which landed on Titan was an EU/ESA lander which hitched a ride on NASA's Cassini spacecraft). Expect more of this in the future.

Another thing worth pointing out space exploration does not necessarily mean HUMAN exploration. China has a rover on the moon and India just sent its first interplanetary probe to Mars. Both are projected to become bigger players in space in the future.

reply to post by paranormal78


You don't get it do you, if we could do that we could solve all the problems of the world.

The US would not let China in because they would steal all there secrets.

Plus you miss the whole point a Global Cabal of Rich turds all calling all the shots, dam even Obama came out and said he was being told what to do, the world does not work the way you suggest.

OOOOOO
reply to post by paranormal78

 

You don't get it do you, if we could do that we could solve all the problems of the world.

The US would not let China in because they would steal all there secrets.

Plus you miss the whole point a Global Cabal of Rich turds all calling all the shots, dam even Obama came out and said he was being told what to do, the world does not work the way you suggest.

I think you are right, it must be in someones interests to keep nations at each other throats, just who that 'someone' is, is the question! and why?

reply to post by pikestaff


Finding the answer to that question is the reason we're all here on ATS; at least, the reason I'M here on ATS. Humans have been at odds with each other for so long with no end to the conflict it seems that this is our purpose. Someone somewhere benefits from all of the pain and struggle, otherwise we wouldn't have it. We'd be a lot farther along technologically if we worked together, that's for sure, and we'd be more developed socially. We'd have space stations, interplanetary travel, super humans, and all of that other good stuff.

That being said, I don't think we'll have a United Nations of Space anytime soon. Jealousy, Civic Pride, Economics, and Political will rule the world. I hear what you are saying but your rational thinking won't apply to everyone. Certain cultures are rational while others are empirical; so the mindset is totally different. The West is more of the Rational and the East is more the Empirical as in the East you have the world's oldest religion(s) and culture(s). The two institutions will never meet half-way except for certain financial interests which will supercede any cultural or historical barriers.

reply to post by paranormal78


I understand you wanting to see more cooperation into the frontier of space. But it ain't going to happen for at least three reasons. First, it is still is a space race even if it doesn't seem like it. The best evidence is the independent attempts we constantly see. It is nationalism at its finest moment, if you wanted to view it that way...or alternatively, at its worst.

Second, it is still an arms race even if the "weapons" don't seem to be that. Tied closely with nationalism, it is the same old automatic system stemming from human ingenuity trying to out perform one another. If you have better weapons, you tend to win the wars. Having a lock on space, as the US has and will maintain regardless of what you get from the released news, is a vital key to future existence of that nation.

Third, IF there is alien life out there in our solar system or has been out there in the last millions of years and left traces of themselves, those remnants will be vital in the discovering nation (or consortium) keeping a leg up on the competition. The old saying that "knowledge is power" is very true in this regard.

Actually, there is good evidence that we found evidence of alien operations with Mars at early as our 1977 Viking missions to that planet and Phobos. Not to mention discovering during the same missions major clues that Martian soil holds evidence for life forms. And this "water" thing! How long has it taken for them to acknowledge the clear evidence that water was and is actually present on that planet? And you must serious question why the USSR had such a miserable record in trying to reach Mars. They've made over thirty efforts and had not one success.

No, no cooperation on joint explorations at all unless the West is a chief component. No doubt we have militarized the Moon and if China wants to muscle in on that action, they will not be welcomed. Count on it. Don't bother about talking about the so-called "space treaty." It ain't worth the paper it is written on.

Yup i think Russia, EU, China and the USA should unite for a BIG push to get the intrafstructure up and running to allow space to be affordable to the private sector.

Mankinds survival relies on access to the resources in our solar system, resources we are running out of .

Russia already aporached the USA in 2011 with plans to build a nuclear propulsion series of craft, but NASA it seems didnt have the balsl to follow it up . Russia seems to have the right idea. Unfortunatly the USA and EU seem to have little intrest except play with expensive toy rockets and not try anything new

JadeStar


Another thing worth pointing out space exploration does not necessarily mean HUMAN exploration. China has a rover on the moon and India just sent its first interplanetary probe to Mars. Both are projected to become bigger players in space in the future.

edit on 23-12-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-12-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

But explotation does reley on Humans and that what we should be concentarting on explotation of space not exploration. As soon as we start seeing tangible results that benfit us phycialy back on earth funding and intrest will get bigger and bigger.

First
International
Space
Corporation

There's money to be made up there!

X

Go F.I.S.C.

reply to post by paranormal78


we have spacecraft that can reach all of the planets, exoplanets, asteroids, moons, and the very most rim of our solar system... We How ever can not get them to come back. It's taken voyager my parents life times to reach what they just now think could be the "edge" of our solar system.

The problem is, no body is thinking about anything new. Everyone has thought of the same idea, and basically come up with the same answer on their own because no body shares anything. Anti-gravity, artificial gravity, new propulsion techniques. The Race ended a long time ago, since then many other nations have joined the space club, and have not rushed to get there, yet their technology is no better than anyone elses.

I'm sorry, if you put 1000 monkey in a room on type writers they will not eventually write shakespeare. It's not going to happen, until someone smart enough, creative enough, and daring enough steps forward with a feasible idea and makes it work. You can not rush science.

I think we may have tried more missions to other places, and perhaps sent a man to mars on a very slow trip to save fuel for return, but I don't think we would be that much farther along.

Hijinx
someone smart enough, creative enough, and daring enough steps forward with a feasible idea and makes it work. You can not rush science.

Freeman Dyson did in 1957 with Orion. Could have lifted 8 Million tons into orbit and travelled anywere in the solar system in weeks.

The Nuclear test ban treaty meant the idea got canned. That and the fact the USAF took the idea to far and suggested a battleship and freaked then presient kennedy out.

crazyewok

JadeStar


Another thing worth pointing out space exploration does not necessarily mean HUMAN exploration. China has a rover on the moon and India just sent its first interplanetary probe to Mars. Both are projected to become bigger players in space in the future.

edit on 23-12-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-12-2013 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

But explotation does reley on Humans and that what we should be concentarting on explotation of space not exploration. As soon as we start seeing tangible results that benfit us phycialy back on earth funding and intrest will get bigger and bigger.

Most space exploitation that can benefit us on Earth can be done from Geosynchronous orbit (solar power satellites, space elevators) or near-Earth space ie: the moon.

You don't need manned "exploitation" for that.

And shouldn't exploitation be the driver for private industry NOT governments? Or are you arguing for another big handout to private corporations on behalf of the taxpayers of the world.

Government run space programs should NOT be in the exploitation game, they should let private industry do what private industry does, which by its very nature IS exploitation of resources.

What government run space programs SHOULD do is what private industry will NOT do. Basic propulsion, closed loop and other key infrastructure research, astronomy and astrophysics and EXPLORATION because none of those things provides a near-term bottom line for a corporation so they are not likely to do them.

If everyone knows their roles, everything will be fine, but don't get it twisted. Government run space agencies have proven to be the worst in terms of identifying resources to be exploited in space.

Its not 1960 anymore. There are actually asteroid mining companies being set up. Let them exploit space.

reply to post by JadeStar


No I agree the explotation part should be the private sector.

BUT

Like the goverment building roads or help building railways they needs to set up a PROPER infrastructure. Something that will drasticaly lower the cost of earth to orbit travel and help in keeping assets and people safe. I would go as far and say that unless it helps in safety or in reduceing travel costsor helps in navigation they should even be exploring that should be private sector to. Instead the goverment should be working to make space accesible and economical so the private sector can boom. Kinda like building a proper road and rail network so a city can grow. Research should be done into building a space elavator or launch loops or makeing a safe and cost effective version of nuclear propulsion (which the Russians are doing).

Hijinx
reply to post by paranormal78

 

we have spacecraft that can reach all of the planets, exoplanets, asteroids, moons, and the very most rim of our solar system... We How ever can not get them to come back. It's taken voyager my parents life times to reach what they just now think could be the "edge" of our solar system.

Strike exoplanets off that list. We have no spacecraft capable of reaching them yet. Plenty of designs but nothing that would get there in less than at least a few generations.

The problem is, no body is thinking about anything new. Everyone has thought of the same idea, and basically come up with the same answer on their own because no body shares anything. Anti-gravity, artificial gravity, new propulsion techniques. The Race ended a long time ago, since then many other nations have joined the space club, and have not rushed to get there, yet their technology is no better than anyone elses.

Incorrect as this chart bellow illustrates:



Just because you didn't know about research doesn't mean people have stopped trying to develop other ways.

Its not something you're going to read about everyday because like most big scientific progressions, it takes time.

Hollywood likes to emphasize "Eureka!" moments but those are a rarity in science. Slow, steady progress is more the rule.

crazyewok
reply to post by JadeStar

 

No I agree the explotation part should be the private sector.

BUT

Like the goverment building roads or help building railways they needs to set up a PROPER infrastructure. Something that will drasticaly lower the cost of earth to orbit travel and help in keeping assets and people safe.

On this we agree 100%.

Its all about how we can get the average person on the street to support such a program. Like I said, 4% of the US budget would leave us with all the infrastructure we'll need until sometime in the mid 22nd century.

reply to post by JadeStar


If the intrastructure is there then the exploration and explotation will both follow as the price will drop to a level indepenedt investers and hopefully some of the bigger universitys can afford.

reply to post by JadeStar


Russia has some very real and very realitic goals on building a Nuclear propulsion craft in orbit. Something like that could very well develop into some long range craft.

crazyewok
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Russia has some very real and very realitic goals on building a Nuclear propulsion craft in orbit. Something like that could very well develop into some long range craft.

I'll believe it when I see it. Its similar to the NERVA and Orion research we did in the 1960s.

Russia doesn't seem poised to take the next great leap any time soon. They have their own issue they have to deal with in terms of funding.

Ultimately like you said, the US/Canada, EU (which includes Russia), Japan and probably China and India should get together on a massive project like a mission to Mars with each country contributing what they have expertise in:. Use that mission to get the infrastructure for future mission built and the cost of the next mission is cheaper.

Its going to take a discovery of life or something similar to break the populace of most of the US, EU, Russia sit up and want to do any of this in a serious way though.

One thing that is needed is leadership. If that means China or Russia leads I'm ok with that but I know a lot of people in parts of the US do not share in that opinion. And that's a problem because if you are not willing to spend the money to lead then at least get out of the way and let China and the ESA work together.

The political borders can not be seen from orbit, so why carry them into it with us?

reply to post by JadeStar


Putting nuclear earth to orbit launch craft to oneside like orion.

Fact iswhen it comes to mars travel and beyond, really we will have to go nuclear. Its the only way to reach any reasonble speeds and fuel long term craft.

The tecs there, someone just has to figure out the enigeering.

Its a truth we have to accept.

crazyewok
reply to post by JadeStar

 

Putting nuclear earth to orbit launch craft to oneside like orion.

Fact iswhen it comes to mars travel and beyond, really we will have to go nuclear. Its the only way to reach any reasonble speeds and fuel long term craft.

I think we can do better than old plans to detonate atomic bombs against a blast plate.

In fact I know we can. I urge you to look at Project Icarus for example.

Also there are plans for fusion rockets which make Project Orion look silly and antiquated. Project Orion would get you to Mars in 3 months.

A fusion rocket could get you there in 30 days.

Fusion Rockets: 30 Days to Mars?

The tecs there, someone just has to figure out the enigeering.

Its a truth we have to accept.

The truth we have to accept is that the reason we don't have nuclear rockets flying all over the solar system is because most people are hesitant of loading a bunch of plutonium bombs onboard a rocket which could have an accident in the upper atmosphere and make a huge part of the earth uninhabitable.

I mean just look at the furor the tiny amount of cesium onboard Cassini caused....

While it was overblown in the case of Cassini, in the case of something like Orion it would probably be justified. I know that I don't want 50 atomic bombs being loaded onto rockets which have varying failure rates.

If we ever use nuclear propulsion it will be based on something like nuclear impulse engines not atomic bombs exploding out the back of a rocket.

And it will probably use material we've mined from asteroid rather than material we're lifting up from Earth.

On another subject, I've been thinking about the premise of the OP and was wondering if you have ever read sci-fi author Fredrick Pohl's "Gateway" saga?

If not I urge you, and anyone else with an interest in the topic of the original post, to read it.

The premise is this, during exploration of the planet Venus an asteroid which turns out to be an interstellar spaceport left by aliens in the distant past is discovered orbiting the planet.

As a result a corporation is set up among the spacefaring powers of the time in the Gateway universe:

The Gateway Corporation administers the asteroid on behalf of a cartel of countries including the United States; the Soviet Union; New People's Asia (implied to be a successor state to the People's Republic of China); the Venusian Confederation, a human colony on Venus; and Brazil.

In the books people pay for the opportunity to take one of the Gateway alien ships on a ride on a preset mission to an unknown place as we have not deciphered the alien language or figured out the navigation system. 1 in 3 ships never return.

The Gateway Corporation pays the persons who find things which add to our scientific knowledge prize money (sound familiar) based on its value. (See Ansari-X Prize, Google Lunar Prize, etc).

Perhaps this might be way forward?