Two men arrested for anti-Semitic tweets after Spurs v West Ham match

Swills
reply to post by blupblup

 

Why not this thread? I think this thread be a perfect place to discuss this!

Because this thread is not about whether people in possession of drugs, or drink driving, should be imprisoned for said "crimes".
It's about two football fans being arrested for anti-semitic abuse.

I don't see how derailing the thread with debates about the prison system in the UK and which crimes should be punished with incarceration is really appropriate?
I'm happy to discuss I just don't feel it's fair to take over someone else's thread doing so.

reply to post by Freeborn


Exactly and there's plenty of times where what on the outside would seem offensive, is actually joked and laughed about by those involved, on both sides.
This is the thing also about football, it's about as primitive and tribal as it gets...people end up doing and saying some absolutely disgraceful things.

It's never acceptable to sing Hillsborough songs,or make Plane noises, or throw bananas at black players or choking gas chamber faces at Spurs fans and all manner of other disgraceful things.

But the holding hands thing is kind of funny.


Also there is a huge issue surrounding gay footballers, and how none of them can come out...I actually think it's pretty sad that football has this issue as you'd never have such abuse in most other sports.
Rugby, Tennis...Golf, Cricket (well maybe player to player) but in Football, they're literally terrified to reveal their sexuality.
I don't think that songs help either, nor does the kind of homophobic stuff chanted, but,as we said... joking, silly songs, sure, no probs, it's the more nasty, serious abuse that is the issue.

sport is competitive and you're always going to have rivalry and banter... it's one place that it's really expected, but there still has to be protection for fans and the law still has to be upheld

Swills
reply to post by ispyed

 

Well the UK is the world model for Big Brother but the USA is catching up rather quickly.

I dunno I was horrified by the fingerprinting for everything in NY!

Dunno how you guys let that one slide.

blupblup
It's never acceptable to sing Hillsborough songs,or make Plane noises, or throw bananas at black players or choking gas chamber faces at Spurs fans and all manner of other disgraceful things.

Its a difficult one.

I don't think being offended is serious enough to warrant judicial action. Maybe a name and shame in the newspapers but not law involvement. I think one should have the right to be a D bag.

It only when you start to incite violence and discrimination.

Eg I should be allowed to say " hate black people because they are lazy and dirty" (I dont btw) yes it would make me a pretty despicable person, But hey that's life.

I should NOT be allowed to say " I think black people should be beaten and used as slaves" That encourages the abuse of there rights to be free of violence.

I should be allowed to say "black people should be paid less and fired from certain jobs" That encourages abuse of there right to have a normally working environment.

Another example:
I should be allowed to crack holocaust jokes. Bad sense of humour maybe? Bad person probably.
But its a joke no harm done (I don't count being offended as real harm).

But I should not be allowed to Jews should be exterminated or that we should repeat the holocaust.


Its a fine line. And unfortunatly the goverment and police makes that line up as it goes along.

reply to post by crazyewok


Fingerprinted in NY? Where at, NYC? If so, NYC is own Big Brother beast with strict gun control laws, Big Bro surveillance, stop & frisk, etc etc, but I can't recall fingerprinting & I live in NY. The only time I've been finger printed is when I was arrested (only once as a teenager) & later when working for a school, which is standard cuz you don't want criminals working with your kids.

reply to post by Freeborn


Well said chap

crazyewok
Warning maybe or maybe a small fine for extreme cases.

But prison?

Thats the problem people are being jailed for "bad words". Surely prison is for violent crminals only?

Who's been sent to Prison?

For the most part, idiotic hate speech on twitter/FB or whatever is punished by a caution. I can't think of anyone who has been sent down for it, not on it's own anyway. Feel free to post any links you might have to show otherwise, but this is a minor offence that wouldn't even make it to a Crown Court, but rather a magistrates and they rarely send anyone to Prison.

reply to post by Swills


Contrary to popular (US) belief, the UK has a constitution as well and it's far older than your plagiarised one. We also have the right to free speech, but other people also have the right to not be abused based upon their religion, race, sexuality or what have you.

crazyewok
reply to post by Freeborn

 

Surely people like Frankey boyle should be serving life by now?

No, because it is taken in context - it's clearly a joke a not meant to "incite" anyone.

ispyed
Moral is you live in a surveillance society where the police will arrest you if you say something against the law.

Do we really? Is this because of that stupid report repeated ad nauseum from years ago about our CCTV, the one that was even discredited by the authors that claimed we were captured 300 times a day on camera?

Will they really arrest us? Providing we don't use hateful language likely to cause fear or incite hatred towards a particular group based on race/religion/sexuality, knock yourself out, say what you bloody well like. I could walk up to David Cameron (something nice about the UK - our Politicians aren't protected by an impenetrable security bubble) and call him a colossal nob-jockey and walk away.

The question is, why would you want to be a racist/bigot?

ispyed
Who cares what someone says on Twitter anyway. Its not exactly a public place. You have to join to twit to twit.

It is classified as an offence under a 1980's Act covering abusive communications, originally meant for the telephone but which extends to the internet.

Bottom line is, this is the UK, not the US, so all you Yanks can just butt out. Feel free to live in a country where, even today, racism is rampant, people hate others for their sexuality and children are gunned down on a daily basis, but I'd rather be here where I know idiotic and disgusting behaviour like that is not acceptable. By and large, most of the rest of the population would agree.

reply to post by stumason


Plagiarized eh? Funny considering how America was born but yes, the UK has free speech to a point it would seem. As of 1986 part of that free speech was taken away and clearly plenty of English have been arrested for offending people.

Swills
reply to post by Freeborn

 

The only cases that may be similar you'll find (I can only of think of 1) are people being brought to a mental health facility for posting anti govt things on their Facebook page. So feel free to "trawl" out MSN but I don't think you'll come up with anything.

Oooh, look what I found...

Teen in jail for sarcastic comment

Tourists arrested for making comments on arrival in America

Man jailed for "threatening President"

reply to post by Swills


Yes, plagiarised.. You don't really think your "Founding Fathers" were the first to come up with any of what was contained in your Constitution do you? It was heavily influenced by existing English Law (such as the Bill of Rights 1689, Magna Carta etc) and the French revolution.

reply to post by stumason


Believe it or not they teach such things in schools here. I know right?

I'm just enjoying your attitude about this whole affair.

reply to post by Swills


Then your schools can't be as bad as some claim - although they do teach that you "won" the War of 1812, which is just funny as hell

My "attitude", by the way, stems from reading a few pages of Yanks bashing on the UK and crowing about how superior you believe yourselves to be, simply over the fact that we do not tolerate people behaving like nobends.

reply to post by stumason


Title says sarcastic but he clearly made a threat, a threat no one is going to take lightly in this day and age. But reguardless, I've said in this very thread free speech doesn't cover threats.

Teen in jail for sarcastic comment

I'm going to go shoot up a school full of kids and eat their still-beating hearts.'"

Man jailed for "threatening President"

'I'm going to destroy America and dig up Marilyn Monroe': British pair arrested in U.S. on terror charges over Twitter jokes

So yeah, all threats made and if you make a threat against someone's life or our great nation here, well expect to be visited from the authorities, especially if it's against a politician like our President. They take that kind of seriously. That said, we have plenty of hate groups running their mouths freely, KKK, Black Panthers, Westborough church, etc.

The one link you didn't find that I feel was a complete violation of our plagiarized rights was this case,

Support Grows for Former Marine Arrested for Posting Anti-Government Messages to Facebook

Some of his posts are violent and threatening so he deserved a visit from the authorities but they went about it all wrong.

reply to post by stumason


Oh no, our schools are awful and getting worse, but the private schools are doing well, it's the public schools that need help.

Either way, I'm enjoying your attitude.

Swills
I've learned from the ATS thread I posted in the OP that in the UK free speech does not at exist, even on the internet.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

5 Harassment, alarm or distress.
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

That one word could preclude criticism of any politician or political system.

Sorry UK, but you guys are in for a world of hurt.
Yid tweets today, tweets about Cameron tomorrow.
Creeping fascism indeed.

Asktheanimals

5 Harassment, alarm or distress.
(1) A person is guilty of an offence if he—
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

within the hearing or sight of a person likely to be caused harassment, alarm or distress thereby.

That one word could preclude criticism of any politician or political system.

But it doesn't though and no court in the land would even entertain such charges. It has to be targeted at a specific group and based on racial, religious or sexual preferences. Political opinions don't count.

Asktheanimals
Sorry UK, but you guys are in for a world of hurt.

No, we're not. These laws have been on the books for years and it would not affect anyone if they weren't a racist or a bigot. I am not sure why you would want to defend someone who is, you guys might be happy to have these sort of people in your midst, but we're not.

Asktheanimals
Yid tweets today, tweets about Cameron tomorrow.
Creeping fascism indeed.

Actually, no. Cameron himself actually stated he didn't see the use of the word Yid by the Tottenham fans as offensive - Here - and as I said before, I could quite happily walk up to David Cameron and call him a useless prat who has no concept of how to find his own arse with a map, much less run the country and walk away quite happily. I can guarantee that in your "great nation", you could not even get within spitting distance of the President, much less call him a twat to his face.

reply to post by Swills


Ah, a different rule for you guys then - they made a "threat" so that deserves Prison time and you're ok with it, but if you abuse someone over here based on race or religion and get a caution for it, that is somehow against Freedom of speech... Gotcha

The first guy ("threat" against a school) could have been dealt with by way of a visit by Plod, maybe an arrest and questioning with the prospect of a caution, but in no way does it deserve being thrown in Prison. The same with the other guy making "threats". Going in heavy handed and throwing the book without actually looking into the context and making a sensible decision is typically an American trait though.

The two tourists were victims of a "cultural" misunderstanding - taken out of context, the word destroy could be inferred to be a threat, but taken in context of what they were going to do, it clearly means they are going to party. Another way of saying this could "we're going to rip up the town" or "paint the town red". That doesn't mean they are actually going to rip the town up, or actually paint it, but rather just have a good time. It is, however, not surprising that your famously dim-witted LEO's didn't actually see the subtlety in the language and take it in context, but rather took it literally.

reply to post by stumason


Different rule? I don't think so, its the same rule you guys follow. Threats are not covered by free speech, I dunno how many times it has to be said. Sure, after the fact, everyone in your articles has an excuse while being very sorry for what they said. The extreme case is the young teenager from Texas who threatened to shoot up a kindergarten but being that came on the heels of Sandy Hook and other recent school shootings, well the judge just ain't feeling his sense of humor, and too boot this is Texas we're talking about here (they give the mentally retarded actual death sentences). We literally just had another school shooting a couple of days ago. The young man who tweeted he would kill Obama said he was sorry and blamed being high on pot, but yeah, threaten the President and this will happen. The young British couple banned from entering the USA based on their terrorist threats, well, what can I say, after 9/11 and the creation of the TSA our airports and rules have gotten worse.

Now do I agree my own gov't is getting out of control? Oh yeah they are. Do I believe they want more power while stripping my rights away? Oh yeah!!!! They're already doing it and it's only getting worse. All in the name of fighting the terrorist.

Terrorism has become an excuse to strip my rights away.