Solutions. Not politics.

reply to post by charles1952



we are not so far apart.
i read your reply as saying, dont remove society.

and i agree with all your points. but i think you are also saying the system needs to be brought down or back to local levels too.

you and i seem to agree there has to be something in place for society to exist. i would be inclined to pen a constitution and a bill of rights again for any replacement system. these two tools alone were what gained the USA its reputation, and these two documents that are the only thing still standing between absolute despotism and current status quo.

even as a far off australian i see that.

my issue is, all of these "disconnected" governments are essentially putting in place a global system now

without our permission, and certainly without our input. all over the world.

if we dont step up with an alternative to their model, its going to roll out, and roll over us.

ill say it again, its the 21st century. we dont need a 17th century model of democracy to rule us.
we need our own power in our own hands.

reply to post by okamitengu

Dear okamitengu,

I may be misunderstanding you, so let me tell you what I think you're suggesting and you can correct me.

Are you thinking of a global democracy in which issues are presented to the citizens to vote on, and the majority rules? If so, there may be some practical difficulties, but I want to see if I understand you before going further.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by okamitengu

 

Dear okamitengu,

I would ask you to resist the suggestion of others, and the temptation, to tear the whole thing down. The US didn't start that way, the Constitution drew on the state constitutions and existing political thought, modified to avoid the excesses and errors which the Founders knew about.

Besides when you tear the system down, the radicals take over, not the sane people. In Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood took control after the overthrow of the government. In Russia, the Communists and their predecessors took over in the 1917 revolution.

With respect,
Charles1952

i want to be clear on this. when i say tear it down, and you are going to love this, all i mean is establish a mainstream party. where each representative stands only for the agreed upon platform of the overall direct democratic republic. they are not there representing themselves. they represent only the system we have all agreed upon. the only role is to get elected in enough majority to actually effect changeover.

you would still have to try to get members elected in every single electoral area. you would need a majority to insist you have a mandate to reform democracy.

revolutions like egypt that occur on the street and have a power vacuum are not possible in western democracy.

the only option is trying to play the same game they do, and hope you have enough people.

it sounds futile even saying it, but that's what i mean by tear it down. vote it out.
sounds impossible. but revolution would be met with military intervention. or police intervention (same thing).

i must be crazy to even suggest that. but i cannot see any other way in the post 9/11 world

reply to post by okamitengu

Dear okamitengu,

Again, please correct me if I go wrong.

It seems you're calling for a third, mainstream party, which will attract enough people to change the way the US (or North America, if you prefer) has established it's system of elections, legislation, and government structure. This is a lofty and very difficult goal to reach.

Do you have some thoughts on where these voters will come from, or how they will be persuaded? I haven't thought it through, but I'm not sure the benefits would be seen as concrete enough to break with tradition. I don't know about Australia, of course, but in the US, terms like "Sheeple" and "Low Information Voter" make me think it would be difficult to shift large portions of the electorate. Further, I would wager 25 cents (My largest wager amount) that the Republicans and Democrats would resist it with all of their dollars and ballot tricks.

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by okamitengu

 

Dear okamitengu,

Again, please correct me if I go wrong.

It seems you're calling for a third, mainstream party, which will attract enough people to change the way the US (or North America, if you prefer) has established it's system of elections, legislation, and government structure. This is a lofty and very difficult goal to reach.

Do you have some thoughts on where these voters will come from, or how they will be persuaded? I haven't thought it through, but I'm not sure the benefits would be seen as concrete enough to break with tradition. I don't know about Australia, of course, but in the US, terms like "Sheeple" and "Low Information Voter" make me think it would be difficult to shift large portions of the electorate. Further, I would wager 25 cents (My largest wager amount) that the Republicans and Democrats would resist it with all of their dollars and ballot tricks.

With respect,
Charles1952

you are correct on both counts. and i do not disgree its a nigh on impossible task.
but im trying to think long game too. the way these connected political groups have. you only have to start changing a few people at right points on the "network hub" to start traction.

for example, imagine if occupy actually had a valid functional plan to put in place instead of .. well instead of the no plan they had.

all that furvour, and nothing. but imagine, if you can get that kind of global awareness.

its not an easy task. like i said, im 40 now. i dont believe i will live to see my framework refined and put in place.

but if the ideas are good, and people can contribute, i have some faith still in those of us who want change.

aside from trying to develop a party, can you see any other way to change what we have? only violent revolution. and as i have said. not going to work. if you have ANY other options, let me know!!!

to be really clear, i want to design a platform for a global party that would stand for the reduction of governance to a local level via a secured second internet. without losing social services. same party, same platform, registered in as many western democracies as possible world wide. of course, first ... have to build the system to replace it.

i just don't have all the pieces!! but the other thing i really want to ensure is whatever gets agreed upon, is difficult to corrupt. impossible to usurp. and still provides security and services to those who need it.

i am also a follower of network theory, and i know if i can just locate those of us who are the hubs, i can spread the word well. so i talk to everyone.

to be honest, many many people have expressed a liking for the idea of actually being responsible.
us old dudes know what thats about.
maybe im dreaming.

i fee like im writing a novel!

but i just wanted to say. right now, my goal is not working out who will make the party work, and who will vote for it.

my goal now, is to get a group of people together over 2-3 years. and actually discuss, and vote on a platform.

the concern right now is to get a system designed.
once we have something in place that's workable, and more importantly, agreed upon, then a party can be formed.

this thread is pretty much the same as what i want to do. look for problems, suggest solutions, dissect.
decide.
rinse repeat

instead of just whinging about the world, im actually doing something. it might fail, and i might be a hopeless dreamer for trying. but i cannot let my kids inherit this system without at least trying to change it

reply to post by okamitengu

Dear okamitengu,

Thanks, I see that my worries were misplaced and weren't applicable to the plan you had. So, do we take over an existing group, or start entirely from scratch? You mentioned Occupy in passing, they have a worldwide organization (sort of). Or start with the Tea Party in North America?

If we're going from scratch, are you asking us to start creating a set of principles for a society here on ATS, then spread it? Or perhaps, find a group of people from many different sources and then start creating the principles?

I'd be happy to chip in if you'd think it useful.

Oh, just had another thought. Pope Francis is widely popular, and there are Catholics all over the world. Build on that?

With respect,
Charles 1952.

P.s. If you feel like you're writing a novel now, just wait until the work begins. So far, this is nothing. - C -

charles1952
reply to post by okamitengu

 

Dear okamitengu,

Thanks, I see that my worries were misplaced and weren't applicable to the plan you had. So, do we take over an existing group, or start entirely from scratch? You mentioned Occupy in passing, they have a worldwide organization (sort of). Or start with the Tea Party in North America?

Well, i dont want to take over anything. I think getting the word into those groups. And all groups is the real goal. And challenge.
The best possible outcome is to have as many varied and diverse ides and brains all in the one place. We wont all agree but im sure we can find a middle ground to build from.

So i guess the answer is. Yes, both.. and no lol.

If we're going from scratch, are you asking us to start creating a set of principles for a society here on ATS, then spread it? Or perhaps, find a group of people from many different sources and then start creating the principles?

I'd be happy to chip in if you'd think it useful.

Oh, just had another thought. Pope Francis is widely popular, and there are Catholics all over the world. Build on that?

With respect,
Charles 1952.

P.s. If you feel like you're writing a novel now, just wait until the work begins. So far, this is nothing. - C -

I dont think ats is the best place to flesh it out fully. But it has been great place for me to actually talk about all this.
And i welcome your help. I want everyones help. I think thats what the op was asking for. A crowd sourced solution for social problems.

Starting from scratch isnt quite right either. As i said i have already sunk half my life into this. At least mentally.
But building on the framework of direct local governance is the best foundation i can come up with.

I am however completely prepared to see what i think disappear to be replaced with what the group develops.

Even if it makes me cry. True democracy. Something i can touch and see and feel. Not yell at on tv

Politics is nothing more than a bunch of rich guys with plenty arguing over entitlements for their constituency and themselves to have even more at the expense of the majority.

Yeah, something has to change, but it has always worked that way and old habits are hard to break. Some "classes" believe themselves to be entitled to more just entitlements because they are in a certain class.

Most simply want to rise to the next higher class, when there really is no difference between one class or the other except some "faith" based BS.

There is no New World Order like so many babble about, the Old World Order scares the masses into believing the big bad new world order is trying to change things, when a fair distribution of wealth would only deprive those with more than they need of even more still.

I don't know how much sense that made, but those presently in power sell their way of thinking to you through a portal in your living room, where if someone trying to pass their silly ass way of thinking to you through your front door would have the police called on them, or be run off, or worse.

The media and religion and your neighborhood association, among a few other mind bending organizations, actually a bunch of them.... need to go away. Never mind you no longer have time to think for yourself while fighting for scraps left to fight over after your rulers, those you look up to, leave it along the road for you to dig through.

Saying it's "Just Business" doesn't justify most of what goes on out here in the real world, don't believe them, stop spewing that garbage to justify standing on another's neck.

I try to get by without harming anyone or anything for any reason any more than I have to in order to get what I need to survive.

Quit it already.

There are several countries in this world that are trying to make things closer to right, the U.S. isn't one of them.

originally posted by: Szarekh
Mods, I don't believe this discussion really belongs anywhere else then the aptly named "Above politics". Move at your own discretion.
Thank you.

We here at ATS pride ourselves in the (semi) fact that we are above ignorance. Usually this is true. I've been lurking for quiet some time,and have been introduced to things I wouldn't have ever have without ATS.However I notice a recurrent underscore of partisan/political/petty political debates. The very same kind we rail against. The same kind we hear off Fox news, and MSNBC. I know we're better than this.

We've developed the same kind sickness that this,and every country's constituents now have. We've stopped proposing solutions, or clever worded documents, or kindhearted paths to things greater. We've started to debate one side AGAINST another when BOTH are needed. After lurking and thinking for some time I've decided to make a much needed "general" thread for solutions TO ANY problems that plagues us.

Now I'd prefer to keep this North American related since A.)Most of our members reside here B.)To keep it focused. and C.) A lot of our problems seem to be more flagrant and understandable than others. However I am more than open to the problems of other countries! Our's may be similar!

I care to/won't enforce make any actually rules here,but I'd like a guideline to help organize any solutions you'd like to offer.
~ Try to keep it ON solutions,and OFF politics if you can.
~ Sources for some claims are asked but not demanded. Often logic should be enough,so don't worry.
~ If you disagree with a solution, put in your own entirely, or propose a few different points on your own.
~ Anything you believe is a problem with a solution, is your own to post, and I will not tolerate anyone putting someone down because they don't perceive a problem.

This is an open discussion for any poster of ATS, for discussion of any country, and personal opinion.

Now to keep this as TL;DR and to be viewed as an opening post and not my own solution,I'll end here.

Problem: United States economic downturn

Solution: Produce (here in the USA) what we consume, instead of outsourcing jobs to cheap labor overseas and buying low-quality goods from third-world countries. This requires a nearly total revamp of the educational system, so that it focuses on skilled trade/technical courses. Graduates need to be ready, willing, and able to WORK. This presupposes that teachers are qualified to teach, and are not just taking up space. Jettison meaningless liberal arts degrees in favor of math, science, medicine, electronics, machining, carpentry, farming/agriculture, etc.

This would increase domestic employment; this would make US goods attractive internationally, which would make the US dollar stronger in the global currency scheme; and, this would give us inceasingly less reliance on a failed internal "welfare" system.

I propose a new way of thinking for everyone. We focus on the future and everything up to the date of this post: 22:39 11/08/2014 - British summer time - is declared 'common heritage'. A lot of bad things have happened up to date, if we are to maximise our potential we need to prepare for what lies ahead. This means housing and food for everyone - look at the arab spring rising. Many people that was because of a lack of food.

Renewable energy is the future, as is nuclear energy. If we are to ever venture beyond our solar system we will likely need the energy in the short term. If everyone lived in the present rather than focused on what's happened people could make a real difference.

We need a movement to change the world as it is. I want the world to be a better place, things are great for me personally when it comes to human history. I am so lucky, I don't believe that one person can't make a difference. A community certainly can, we should come up with a list of tenets - ideas persay that people should adhere to, this isn't meant to impede on people's freedom.

What else can I do to be heard, I did write to David Cameron about the negative feeling in the news recently and haven't received a response yet. Everything happens for a reason, this post is to try make the world a better place.

originally posted by: Foxxinator
I propose a new way of thinking for everyone. We focus on the future and everything up to the date of this post: 22:39 11/08/2014 - British summer time - is declared 'common heritage'. A lot of bad things have happened up to date, if we are to maximise our potential we need to prepare for what lies ahead. This means housing and food for everyone - look at the arab spring rising. Many people that was because of a lack of food.

Renewable energy is the future, as is nuclear energy. If we are to ever venture beyond our solar system we will likely need the energy in the short term. If everyone lived in the present rather than focused on what's happened people could make a real difference.

We need a movement to change the world as it is. I want the world to be a better place, things are great for me personally when it comes to human history. I am so lucky, I don't believe that one person can't make a difference. A community certainly can, we should come up with a list of tenets - ideas persay that people should adhere to, this isn't meant to impede on people's freedom.

What else can I do to be heard, I did write to David Cameron about the negative feeling in the news recently and haven't received a response yet. Everything happens for a reason, this post is to try make the world a better place.

Everyone is too wrapped up in their individual lives - content that they are better off than they could be when we should be striving to make the world better. I'm part of this lazy generation who will be 'in power' in a few years time and this scares me

a reply to: cathar

To solve a problem it must be identified first! Let me try to identify what I think the problems is.

Let me set up the foundation in which my opinion piece is derived. I ask for your patience.

Early in my life I have enjoyed watching people. Why? Don’t have the foggiest idea. In doing this I have seen many personality types within business, religion, academia, sports, government, Wall Street, family, clubs and so forth. There are the shy hard working followers, the leader want a bees, the natural leaders, and strong willed leaders who are dysfunctional emotionally. It’s this later personality type I want to focus on. My opinion is.. these types have a character disorder within their brain structure. Call it a “God Complex“, “Messiah Complex”, “Narcissistic Personality Disorder” (NPD), or some varying degree of Psychopath. The traits of these personalities are as follows: grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy or remorse, issues of status, power, and potency, low fear including stress-tolerance, and social assertiveness. These traits come in varying degrees and combinations.

I have also observed watching the animal kingdom trying to understand why humans do what they do. Perhaps most people don’t think or are aware of this; but we indeed are animals with animal hard wired brain structures that have not changed even though we have evolved beyond cave man. One characteristic stands out over and over. Many animals have a male which dominates its herd. This male strives to ensure healthy offspring and to protect its territory against other males who want to take over. This male also strives to protect its territory to ensure resources such as food and water.

In my business career I traveled to many countries in which I enjoyed very much. Regardless of differing nationalities, languages, or cultures; I found the majority of people to be good hearted souls whose goal in life was / is to be with family to love and take care of them. They want peace in which to enjoy each other throughout their life.

I have lived long enough to observe and question why we as a world population continue to fight and kill one other. My opinion is it is caused by government politicians and not the general world population. My next question is then why do these world governments make decisions to move towards ongoing conflict. My opinion is it’s caused by many reasons and there complex. I wish, however, to focus my opinion piece only on certain types of world politicians.

First let me say not all politicians are bad. Some are good hearted souls who wish to provide a good service to their constituents. But there are many politicians whose only goal in life is to be self-serving only to themselves. They use politics as a platform in which to obtain their goals. These politicians have the strong male drive to dominate, have a god complex and/or psychopathic traits. These later politicians are dictators, prime ministers, presidents, high level legislatures, etc.. These are the types who have no issue with going to war and have no compassion for their dying fellow man.

So what to do about stopping this ongoing cycle!? I had to be interviewed for my job to ensure I was capable of doing it. Some agencies have psychological tests to ensure the candidates have healthy psychology. World leaders have a very responsible job governing their people. If this is so important then I think politicians should be interviewed to ensure their capable of doing their jobs politically via a sound mind.

Please comment…..