Solutions. Not politics.

Mods, I don't believe this discussion really belongs anywhere else then the aptly named "Above politics". Move at your own discretion.
Thank you.

We here at ATS pride ourselves in the (semi) fact that we are above ignorance. Usually this is true. I've been lurking for quiet some time,and have been introduced to things I wouldn't have ever have without ATS.However I notice a recurrent underscore of partisan/political/petty political debates. The very same kind we rail against. The same kind we hear off Fox news, and MSNBC. I know we're better than this.

We've developed the same kind sickness that this,and every country's constituents now have. We've stopped proposing solutions, or clever worded documents, or kindhearted paths to things greater. We've started to debate one side AGAINST another when BOTH are needed. After lurking and thinking for some time I've decided to make a much needed "general" thread for solutions TO ANY problems that plagues us.

Now I'd prefer to keep this North American related since A.)Most of our members reside here B.)To keep it focused. and C.) A lot of our problems seem to be more flagrant and understandable than others. However I am more than open to the problems of other countries! Our's may be similar!

I care to/won't enforce make any actually rules here,but I'd like a guideline to help organize any solutions you'd like to offer.
~ Try to keep it ON solutions,and OFF politics if you can.
~ Sources for some claims are asked but not demanded. Often logic should be enough,so don't worry.
~ If you disagree with a solution, put in your own entirely, or propose a few different points on your own.
~ Anything you believe is a problem with a solution, is your own to post, and I will not tolerate anyone putting someone down because they don't perceive a problem.

This is an open discussion for any poster of ATS, for discussion of any country, and personal opinion.

Now to keep this as TL;DR and to be viewed as an opening post and not my own solution,I'll end here.

reply to post by Szarekh


The psychopaths have taken control of the planet.....There are no solutions in a situation like we have now...Get over it ...I'm being realistic....IMHO.

We haven't "started" anything new in regards to politics at all.

There have been these exact same divisions since the day the country was founded, before that even.

Honestly they have been far worse than anything we see today. Currently, the two parties are so similar that sometimes its hard to tell them apart.

As for solutions, the best ones come from this division you are saying is so problematic. Its this pull and tug of different ideologies that eventually end up resting somewhere close to the middle where most people sit at. Sometimes it goes a bit left and sometimes a bit right but usually hovers somewhere in between.

The best solution to any problem is to make sure that the two sides do not get along and keep pulling in different directions. Once they start agreeing then you begin your march to a totalitarian state where there is no differing opinions and that is extremely dangerous.

reply to post by Szarekh


Since the forum is "above politics" I think people should reflect on and declare their personal values -- if not in the forum, then silently to themselves. Values are certainly above politics and IMO, above solutions.

Secondly, how can people that want to remake or destroy society expect to have a seat at the table for the discussion about "solutions"?

Politics in America is trivial. It is about enriching yourself and your "team" if possible. Everyone else be damned.

Greed and narcissism are the values. Rand would be thrilled.

reply to post by Szarekh

Dear Szarekh,

Very interesting OP. The fact that I have no idea concerning what you're actually hoping to achieve by this, in no way diminishes my interest in the topic.

Take, as an example, the principle of Subsidiarity, the idea that decisions should be made at the lowest possible level. I happen to like it as a principle. It also happens to be more embraced by the Republicans than the Democrats. Have I now stepped into partisan mode?

Choosing sides on various principles not only determines the tools one has to use, but also what one sees as problems. For example, until the early 1900's the federal government was rejecting pleas for emergency help from states suffering disasters, under the theory that it wasn't a federal problem.

So, can you give me an example or a starting point to build on? I understand that you think partisanship is a bad thing when one is solving problems, but I'd be a little happier knowing what you think "partisanship" is, and why it is bad.

With respect,
Charles1952

cathar
reply to post by Szarekh

 

The psychopaths have taken control of the planet.....There are no solutions in a situation like we have now...Get over it ...I'm being realistic....IMHO.

If they had taken over, AND unstoppable we'd be dead. Flat out.

But still, I can understand your view of things, they are rather bleak.

Spookybelle
The best solution to any problem is to make sure that the two sides do not get along and keep pulling in different directions. Once they start agreeing then you begin your march to a totalitarian state where there is no differing opinions and that is extremely dangerous.

edit on 11-12-2013 by Spookybelle because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-12-2013 by Spookybelle because: (no reason given)

They don't have to agree entirely and they don't have to disagree entirely either.
I'm not aiming at a one party state, nor the two parties constantly agreeing with each other. I remember stating to keep politics out as much as possible. The divisions used to work towards something by
disagreeing. I sincerely hope you aren't equating parties as human however.
I question weather you read the entirety of the OP,and am leaning towards "didn't".

I'm not blaming the division, I've hardly done that. I did however point out that we've started debating worthless things, and when debating on problems or their solutions.... we debate semantics and dogma rather than the actual problem or solution its self.

I'm asking what YOU the member would do to solve a problem in today's world.
(I'm refusing to play the blamegame as per guidelines.)

InverseLookingGlass
reply to post by Szarekh

 

Values are certainly above politics and IMO, above solutions.
Secondly, how can people that want to remake or destroy society expect to have a seat at the table for the discussion about "solutions"?
Politics in America is trivial. It is about enriching yourself and your "team" if possible. Everyone else be damned.

edit on 11-12-2013 by InverseLookingGlass because: shpelling

And values are above solutions. Values mean nothing without action however. (Or in some senses one's morals are great enough to not do something.)

I'm not sure what you're stating on the second point. Are members of ATS people that want to remake or destroy society? If I remember correctly the popular notion was that we lack one.

Yes, I agree. I believe I made that evident?

This is my first thread,and I think it could use a bit of a shining. If you see something that makes it seem otherwise, then PM please.

reply to post by Szarekh


Looking for rational answers to irrational problems might prove to be difficult.

i think excluding other western democracies is a mistake. lots of people globally are thinking like this, and if we all just got together we can redesign it all! the same system is used everywhere with interconnected lawyers politicians and bankers.

Direct Democratic Republic

i too believe in giving power to local town levels. i also believe in direct democracy rather than representational democracies. the idea of think global, act local but on a governmental stage

i think if we set up a second secured internet for all governance issues, and had everyone connected form home, we could wipe out politicians.

i have massive issues with social services and distribution of wealth in this system. but i dont want to have all the answers, i really want everyone possible to come together and try to resolve these issues on paper.

think of it like a giant think tank to rebuild society.

obviously we cant go into everything in a few posts but come join it the dialogue

cathar
The psychopaths have taken control of the planet.....There are no solutions in a situation like we have now...Get over it ...I'm being realistic....IMHO.

Exactly. But the psychopaths took control of the planet long ago. The psychopaths gave us our languages, our ideas of number, valuation and trade, patriarchy, etc. They gave us (imposed on us) the very notion of dualism and then used it to manipulate our behavior. In other words, the psychopaths invented the way we think.

To think (yes, I see the irony) that we can work within the confines of the system the psychopaths created to change that very system is... futile at best. Any "solution" we can possibly come up with is so heavily influenced by multi-generational social conditioning that the psychopaths who created and maintain that system are probably laughing at the possibility of such an idea affecting the desired change.

There are no "solutions". Either the existing paradigm is totally destroyed or we continue on in slavery. I once read somewhere that when the SHTF one of the first places to secure is the local library. I disagree. When the SHTF the first thing we should do is go to the library and burn it to the ground.

Considering how screwed up things have become as a result of the way human beings have been conditioned (trained, like the animals the psychopaths consider us to be) to think, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to simply discard everything and let the chips fall where they may. There's not a whole lot worth preserving that I see, history itself included.

NthOther

cathar
The psychopaths have taken control of the planet.....There are no solutions in a situation like we have now...Get over it ...I'm being realistic....IMHO.

Exactly. But the psychopaths took control of the planet long ago. The psychopaths gave us our languages, our ideas of number, valuation and trade, patriarchy, etc. They gave us (imposed on us) the very notion of dualism and then used it to manipulate our behavior. In other words, the psychopaths invented the way we think.

To think (yes, I see the irony) that we can work within the confines of the system the psychopaths created to change that very system is... futile at best. Any "solution" we can possibly come up with is so heavily influenced by multi-generational social conditioning that the psychopaths who created and maintain that system are probably laughing at the possibility of such an idea affecting the desired change.

There are no "solutions". Either the existing paradigm is totally destroyed or we continue on in slavery. I once read somewhere that when the SHTF one of the first places to secure is the local library. I disagree. When the SHTF the first thing we should do is go to the library and burn it to the ground.

Considering how screwed up things have become as a result of the way human beings have been conditioned (trained, like the animals the psychopaths consider us to be) to think, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to simply discard everything and let the chips fall where they may. There's not a whole lot worth preserving that I see, history itself included.

while ultimately i am in agreement with what you say, i think its not yet too late to try to usurp the system.
but it will take a large number of people, and possibly even on a global scale to actually get a dissenting voice heard properly.

i dont think it will be immediately successful but i believe that if people saw the length the "PTB" will go to stop an alternative option they had no role in from coming up it mighnt actually do something.

doing nothing and hoping it will all collapse isn't a solution, and starting a violent revolution that gets your ideas labelled as terrorism and gets your babies assassinated, or your family friends...self... that doesnt work either.

so what choices do you see as legitimate from here?
do nothing?
violent revolution?
attempt change using the crap system we have
a fourth option you have in mind that i havent considered?

charles1952
reply to post by Szarekh

 

Dear Szarekh,

Very interesting OP. The fact that I have no idea concerning what you're actually hoping to achieve by this, in no way diminishes my interest in the topic.

Take, as an example, the principle of Subsidiarity, the idea that decisions should be made at the lowest possible level. I happen to like it as a principle. It also happens to be more embraced by the Republicans than the Democrats. Have I now stepped into partisan mode?

Choosing sides on various principles not only determines the tools one has to use, but also what one sees as problems. For example, until the early 1900's the federal government was rejecting pleas for emergency help from states suffering disasters, under the theory that it wasn't a federal problem.

So, can you give me an example or a starting point to build on? I understand that you think partisanship is a bad thing when one is solving problems, but I'd be a little happier knowing what you think "partisanship" is, and why it is bad.

With respect,
Charles1952

Thank you for taking interest!

I mentioned before that I'm asking what would you as the member do to solve a problem,or obstacle in today's world? Like you mentioned subsidiary. You believe that the problem of government inefficiency (or stupidity as it were) can be solved by letting local and state government that already know what is happening/ were elected to deal with an ongoing crisis.
I also mentioned earlier that one's personal morals are certainly above one's solutions, BUT without action morals mean nothing.I want any and all characterizations to voice what they believe is negative and how to end it, so that "both sides of view" (like you stated) are seen.

No, you were not partisan. I see partisan like this: Disagreeing with the other disagreement.
Completely ignoring any thought of compromise, or working together for the betterment of the people. Partisanship can be affiliated with the communist partisans of the second world war. Slaughtering both invading German and different thinking civilians alike because they disagreed with their ideals.

You named what is popularly seen as a republican value,and did it in a non-derogatory way. You were stating what you believed they think is right,and that some democrats agree.However unneeded for it's statement, your point still stands. Thank you for your inquiries, I'm actually elated someone took enough interest to question me let alone even answered.
(No OP likes one lined potshots at the OP.)

Yes,after replying to a few things, I will begin to make my own submission to solutions. Time swallows all things, among them are my memory.

beezzer
reply to post by Szarekh

 

Looking for rational answers to irrational problems might prove to be difficult.

Does difficult mean we should do nothing then?

Szarekh

beezzer
reply to post by Szarekh

 

Looking for rational answers to irrational problems might prove to be difficult.

Does difficult mean we should do nothing then?

this is my fear too.
difficult to me means, you do it anyway, but dont get attached to succeeding!

okamitengu
i think excluding other western democracies is a mistake. lots of people globally are thinking like this, and if we all just got together we can redesign it all! the same system is used everywhere with interconnected lawyers politicians and bankers.

Direct Democratic Republic

i too believe in giving power to local town levels. i also believe in direct democracy rather than representational democracies. the idea of think global, act local but on a governmental stage

i think if we set up a second secured internet for all governance issues, and had everyone connected form home, we could wipe out politicians.

i have massive issues with social services and distribution of wealth in this system. but i dont want to have all the answers, i really want everyone possible to come together and try to resolve these issues on paper.

think of it like a giant think tank to rebuild society.

obviously we cant go into everything in a few posts but come join it the dialogue

I agree, but often it seems every mistake or problem of the world can be found in the North American region.

I don't agree with local town levels, but regional levels. With the state being an admin. of order, defense, economical,etc. So we do agree on most points.

Of course no posts here will change anything,but it might just be entertaining.

okamitengu
while ultimately i am in agreement with what you say, i think its not yet too late to try to usurp the system.
but it will take a large number of people, and possibly even on a global scale to actually get a dissenting voice heard properly.

If that happened it would probably be a cool experience if you lived through it, so by all means go for it. But at the same time... what then? What do you replace the system with? Isn't the very idea--the concept itself--of having a "system" faulty in the first place?

a fourth option you have in mind that i havent considered?

Yeah, but it would probably be best discussed in a metaphysics or spirituality forum. And that's indicative of the dire straits we're in, my friend.

Szarekh

I agree, but often it seems every mistake or problem of the world can be found in the North American region.

I don't agree with local town levels, but regional levels. With the state being an admin. of order, defense, economical,etc. So we do agree on most points.

Of course no posts here will change anything,but it might just be entertaining.

i think your idea that every mistake or problem of teh world can be found in the north american region is part of the problem.

you see things as divisible. and you can create this "north america" attitude. with all due respect, if you look outside america, you will see the SAME playbook being used in every single western democracy.

germany, france, uk, AUS, NZ, south africa, anywhere the 'two party representative democracy" exists.

i think if you got rid of "powers' and just had really small regions in charge of themselves they could actually change issues. i use the word town. but really, the area covered as a "local governance zone" would need to be identified.

im big on making sure we each vote directly on issues rather than giving our power to "representatives" or "authorities"

they will only decide what is best for them . ive said this a gajillionty times. its the 21st century. we can develop a technological way to get direct democracy, you know, the kind the Athenians invented, back to every individual essentially and electronic black and white pebble. to cast as you see fit.

then i suggest some kind of cloud service replaces public services. this needs way more fleshing out, but essentially it would be to protect your rights and ensure all former "government" services .. education, emergency services etc. could be funded.

i dont know exactly how this would work, but the important thing is GETTING RID OF POLITICIANS. if you can break thier power, all the other power structures will go into meltdown looking for a way to infiltrate the system again.
legislation is the tool they used to enslave us all. globally.

the website i linked before is a place to begin a think tank or what i term "crowd sourced governance"
its only as a large body of people we can have any hope of even having a voice compared to the political classes

NthOther

If that happened it would probably be a cool experience if you lived through it, so by all means go for it. But at the same time... what then? What do you replace the system with? Isn't the very idea--the concept itself--of having a "system" faulty in the first place?

i dont thing the idea of a system is the problem, the idea of people gaming a system is the problem. the majority of society NEED some kind of agreed status to live by. i think trying to get that to as little external control as possible, and make everyone personally responsible for their roles. that's whats really lacking in our societies is personal responsibility.

oh i slipped on some fries... pay me 40 billions!

you asked what then, i know this reply is a little out of whack with your order but. quite simply, you set a process. first you design what you think should replace what we have. so before you even TRY to tear anything down, or really effect any change, you have an agreed platform. a method, ready to go. ready to at least be attempted. im not suggesting a utopia. noone shares a real idea of what utopia is. but i am talking about gathering people together to try to agree on a fair system to get equal representation and equal rights.
no more corporations are people too.
no more big government deciding whats legal.

am mutually agreed system. designed with teh idea that nefarious forces will ALWAYS try to game the system

im not smart enough to work out how to stop that. i imagine, you might be, but perhaps you arent good at network interfaces. and jimmy, he sucks at both of those but he has great ideas on economics.
by bringing EVERYONE possible together and canvassing as wide a sample of current human society as possible you can develop over time, some kind of mutually agreeable method of maintaining our lives.

you are completely right about it being tainted by current education systems, and social engineering. it really does concern me. but im nearly 40. i have seen it all come together, and i cant sit back and just pass this system onto my kids without trying to get them a better deal.

a fourth option you have in mind that i havent considered?
Yeah, but it would probably be best discussed in a metaphysics or spirituality forum.

And that's indicative of the dire straits we're in, my friend.

i would be interested in hearing your ideas. PM me, or start a thread. im not adverse to using any and all methods to defeat the enemy.

okamitengu
am mutually agreed system. designed with teh idea that nefarious forces will ALWAYS try to game the system

If there was mutual agreement, there wouldn't be any need for a "system" (i.e., government and trade) as we think of as such. And you're right, any system will be gamed. Systems themselves are games played to acquire and preserve social dominance. That's the problem.

im not smart enough to work out how to stop that.

Neither am I. Nor is anyone else. That too is the very problem. No one (or group) is smart enough to manage all of this. That much should be blatantly apparent by now. So if it can't all be managed successfully (respecting the dignity of all human beings), why are we continuing to even try? Because we don't know any other way. Again... part of the problem.

i would be interested in hearing your ideas. PM me, or start a thread. im not adverse to using any and all methods to defeat the enemy.

I might do that to explain that there really is no enemy. That idea is part of the... well, you get it.

reply to post by okamitengu

Dear okamitengu,

I would ask you to resist the suggestion of others, and the temptation, to tear the whole thing down. The US didn't start that way, the Constitution drew on the state constitutions and existing political thought, modified to avoid the excesses and errors which the Founders knew about.

Besides when you tear the system down, the radicals take over, not the sane people. In Egypt the Muslim Brotherhood took control after the overthrow of the government. In Russia, the Communists and their predecessors took over in the 1917 revolution.

As far as I can tell, most of the world admires our system, but deplores the rot that has settled in. Don't throw out the entire structure, fix the rot.

I agree with your insistence on personal responsibility, the more the merrier. Too many people see the government as a far away tyrant who takes this and gives that, without real regard for the good of the people. It is a system easy to game, because there is no one to watch for cheating.

The closer to the people you move decision making, the easier it is for people to understand the situation, see what their local government is doing, and effect change when things go awry. If, for example, the federal government controls school curriculum, there's really nothing you or i can do about it. But if the local school board sets the curriculum, the parents of the kids affected are right there going "WTF" if the board tries to slip in a fast one.

There are other advantages. If the federal government is reduced in power, there is less incentive for groups to try to buy influence. After all, if the government isn't in charge of buying road signs (or similar things), there is no reason for the sign business to lobby them.

As another advantage, you are restoring a sense of dignity, importance, and pride to the people when they realize they have to make the decisions that affect them and have to live with the results.

There is a powerful belief being spread that the people are not wise enough or noble enough to be allowed to make their own decisions. That idea has to be fought, but it certainly doesn't help that the vast majority of children are educated in government schools, by government employees, according to government approved lesson plans.

With respect,
Charles1952