The Second Law is No More

graysquirrel
reply to post by Korg Trinity

 

So, You are saying that if we modify the second law with chaos theory, this OP experiment does not violate any laws. You do realize that this new arrangement does allow for the legal existence of a self organizing particle based free energy system.

I'm happy with that.

As for the OP title, The old second law that I was taught in collage which had no exceptions / loop holes is no more.

Yes I am saying that and no it can't.

You would not being able to extract any energy as you would be opening the system. This would change the entropy of the system. This would also destroy the emmergent effect.

In other words, you cannot extract more energy than is put in.

Peace,

Korg.

Korg Trinity


..... In other words, you cannot extract more energy than is put in.

Conservation of energy is the first law of thermal dynamics, which is not in question here. A self organizing particle based free energy system does not need to violate the first law.

reply to post by graysquirrel


Oh dear. Simplest statement: the cat toys used in this experiment eventually ran down. Laws of thermodynamics conserved. Fun take-away: all the cat toys formed many systems that seemed to be organized. Further reference:

en.wikipedia.org...'s_Game_of_Life

Get it?

graysquirrel

Korg Trinity


..... In other words, you cannot extract more energy than is put in.

Conservation of energy is the first law of thermal dynamics, which is not in question here. A self organizing particle based free energy system does not need to violate the first law.

That depends on what your definition of FREE is really.

If you mean free energy as in taking energy directly from a source that has a vast amount of natural energy stored already... such as our earths mantle.... or using gravitational forces as in Wave power then the investment of energy is indeed less than the potential energy.

This does not violate any thermodynamic laws as the equations are balanced with a lessening of energy in one area to gain in another.

However if your definition of free energy is to create energy from an emergent system as in the OP's experiment as you imply then sorry it won't work.

Firstly the moment you open the system the macro quantum effect that is causing the emergence will collapse, and secondly you would only be able to extract half of the potential energy of the system before your energy investment becomes more than the return.

I understand that it maybe hard for people to understand this so don't feel disgruntled, I always encourage people to think outside of the box and challenge the standard model... but there are laws that 99% of physicist agree upon and thermodynamics is one of the best understood subjects...

I don't profess to know all of physics and if anyone were to say they understood it all they are not to be trusted. Physics is a very wide subject however, those of us in the field all have had to go through years of education to understand how we got to where we are today before we can look to the why's and the what-ifs.

Think of it this way... a musician needs to learn where the notes are on their instrument before they can improvise... it's the same with physics.

Peace,

Korg.

DJW001
reply to post by graysquirrel

 

Oh dear. Simplest statement: the cat toys used in this experiment eventually ran down. Laws of thermodynamics conserved. Fun take-away: all the cat toys formed many systems that seemed to be organized. Further reference:

en.wikipedia.org...'s_Game_of_Life

Get it?

A good example..

The Game of Life was the first time I personally took an interest in emergence and it led me to study Quantum Mechanics in the first place!

Star for you!

Peace,

Korg.

I thought I would bump this thread because, at this time, there is a on going thread about breaking the laws of physics.

a reply to: graysquirrel

I thought I would bump this thread because, at this time, there is a on going thread about breaking the laws of physics.

Which really doesn't have anything to do with this topic because it is about the claim that no patent will be accepted for an invention which goes against the laws of physics. Which is true. It won't be. Usually. Unless the inspector had a bad night or unless the inventor can demonstrate that the invention works.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: Korg Trinity


Actually this is not an unknown phenomenon. It's cause is the single most fundamental law of nature. Chaos into order which is the direct opposite of entropy.

I think the key word used here is Emergence... It is a word that will become more and more widely used in the next couple of decades.

Emergent systems exhibit coherent behavior that it's individual components are not directly programmed for.

Indeed. Everyone should watch this BBC documentary, called The Secret Life of Chaos.

www.dailymotion.com...

Self-organisation and emergence is everywhere.