Bitcoin Crashes, Loses Half Of Its Value In Two Days

Eryiedes
reply to post by dreamingawake

 

I love how you characterize one of the most prolific investors in the world today as a "tulip maniac".
That said, I'll still listen to him before I listen to anyone else on the topic.
I'm not trying to denegrate your position.
He just has a much better track record on calling the markets and their trends is all.

-Peace-

He's not the only person to follow as guidance within the Bitcoin market despite his esteemed title. As said, that's fine, you're entitled to that as is anyone. However, I believe you already did categorize us Bitcoin users in the OP. Not here to change your opine on Bitcoin as you mention you have no interested in what really happens to the market nor use it. Just want others to see there's options here and it just doesn't have to be dealing with a dead end which the OP seems to have come off for some as reflected in the replies.

Best of luck!

reply to post by dreamingawake


I don't need luck.
I'm not playing the markets.

-Peace-

Evening,

HERE we go.
This is what I have been saying.
The Establishment wants digital currency.
They like that it can be traced.
They like that it can be taxed flawlessly.
They like that it can be monitored.
They like that it can be controlled.
They like that it can be manipulated better that paper fiat.
But most of all, they like that they can confiscate from you easier than cash or PM's anytime they choose.
I said that BTC is the first step to "weaning" the people off paper currency towards the utopian system they envision...the cashless society.
I said it would eventually be taken over by the sharks and finally collectivised by the system to replace money completely.
Well, here's the next step of "problem-reaction-solution" right on time.
J.P. Morgan is now attempting to patent a BTC-style system and contrary to what many will tell you, this is not a good sign...

www.ft.com...

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes

They like that it can be traced.
They like that it can be taxed flawlessly.
They like that it can be monitored.
They like that it can be controlled.
They like that it can be manipulated better that paper fiat.
But most of all, they like that they can confiscate from you easier than cash or PM's anytime they choose.

Lol, the price is quickly rising back to where is was so you need to pull out the big guns huh? It's very hard to trace actually, especially if you take care in the way you make transactions. And it's virtually impossible to tax unless you want to be taxed. It's also impossible to manipulate the same way fiat money is manipulated, no one can create endless amount of BTC, they are very difficult to mine and it's easy to see the exact amount of BTC in existence. They are also impossible to confiscate. I believe the feds are still trying to crack the largest wallet they acquired from the Silk Road bust. Unless they get the password from DPR there's virtually no chance they will crack it themselves. And if DPR created that wallet using a deterministic algorithm based on a seed phrase, he can easily rebuild his wallet using any computer simply by remembering that phrase.

J.P. Morgan is now attempting to patent a BTC-style system and contrary to what many will tell you, this is not a good sign...

That patent describes a system which is nothing like bitcoin, it's not a decentralized system and doesn't even appear to be implementing a new type of currency.

ChaoticOrder
It's also impossible to manipulate the same way fiat money is manipulated

I don't know where you guys get this idea from because its absolutely not true. ANYTHING can be manipulated, as I stated above, its being done with gold and silver as we speak. Yeah, they can't turn on the presses and inflate the currency, but rich speculators most assuredly can artificially create demand and surplus which is essentially the same thing.

defcon5

ChaoticOrder
It's also impossible to manipulate the same way fiat money is manipulated

I don't know where you guys get this idea from because its absolutely not true. ANYTHING can be manipulated, as I stated above, its being done with gold and silver as we speak. Yeah, they can't turn on the presses and inflate the currency, but rich speculators most assuredly can artificially create demand and surplus which is essentially the same thing.

Exactly. If I had millions of dollars of Bitcoin sold them all and then bought when the market dropped thereby increasing demand and then cashing out again when it reached the same level isn't that manipulation?

I think that people have WAY too much faith in this.

ChaoticOrder
It's very hard to trace actually, especially if you take care in the way you make transactions.

In it's current form yes. In it's final form no.

And it's virtually impossible to tax unless you want to be taxed.

A fully collectivised State run system would be and we already know it would be monitored in real time with the IRS for tax purposes as evidenced by Obamacare.

It's also impossible to manipulate in the way fiat money is manipulated, no one can create endless amount of BTC, they are very difficult to mine and it's easy to see the exact amount of BTC in existence.

Fractional Reserve Banking already allows them to play with 90% more cash than what's physically present. All digital fiat will do is give them a way to make the last 10% out of thin air too.

They are also impossible to confiscate. I believe the feds are still trying to crack the largest wallet they acquired from the Silk Road bust. Unless they get the password from DPR there's virtually no chance they will crack it themselves. And if DPR created that wallet using a deterministic algorithm based on a seed phrase, he can easily rebuild his wallet using any computer simply by remembering that phrase.

You honestly believe for one moment that the Establishment would sanction the open use of a globally accepted digital currency that couldn't be confiscated?

That patent describes a system which is nothing like bitcoin, it's not a decentralized system and doesn't even appear to be implementing a new type of currency.

I will bet you anything it will be accepted in more "brick & mortar" places than BTC just because of JPM's world wide influence. In that aspect alone it has a greater potential utility than BTC, even it it maintains an inferior value. Cheaper price per unit would also encourage more investors who don't have $900 to spare for just one coin.
We'll see a whole bunch of similar digital fiat systems spring up like BTC now, even if not identical in mechanism...just like in the "dot com" bubble...everybody will want a chance at being in on the "next big thing"...but eventually they'll merge together or fall by the wayside.
By that point you won't be able to keep it out of the State's hands simply on tax grounds.
The notion that right now, 143 million in BTC can change hands just for the cost of the electricity to do the online transaction...estimated at $0.37 USD...should be the primary indicator to you that this state of affairs won't last for long. Nothing is going to be stable until the government (through the IRS) and off-shore banks (through the IMF) get their due and not a moment before. That will mean a collectivised "state-run" apparatus and by then, it's not going to look anything like BTC does now.

-Peace-



-Peace-

superman2012
Exactly. If I had millions of dollars of Bitcoin sold them all and then bought when the market dropped thereby increasing demand and then cashing out again when it reached the same level isn't that manipulation?

You got it.
Precious metals also have to be mined, and there is constant rate of growth for them, the same as the bitcoin. You can bet that speculators manipulate that market all the time. Right now JP Morgan is manipulating the silver market for example.

Also why did they suddenly shoot up to almost $1400 per coin?
Well, it could be the result of a number of articles that came out a few days before that telling how some guy made a million dollars selling off coins he had forgotten he had bought, and at the same time articles about how it had hit $800. Well, suddenly, every person on the planet saw this as a “get rich quick scheme” and went on a buying frenzy. That of course drove up the price even further to close to $1400. then people tried to sell them, flooded the market, and of course then it dropped down to like $500. All because of a news article.

Sure, you can't manipulate it, eh...

defcon5
ANYTHING can be manipulated

Lol... fine, I submit that anything can be "manipulated" via the act of pumping and dumping. But that's not an argument against bitcoin... it's an argument against ANYTHING.

reply to post by Eryiedes

In it's current form yes. In it's final form no.

The "final form" will be only what the majority of the network wants it to be. New protocol changes will only come into affect if the network accepts those changes.

You honestly believe for one moment that the Establishment would sanction the open use of a globally accepted digital currency that couldn't be confiscated?

The simple, mathematical fact, is that bitcoins cannot be confiscated unless the owner wants them to be confiscated, or is tortured or some how black mailed into giving up the password.

ChaoticOrder

defcon5
ANYTHING can be manipulated

Lol... fine, I submit that anything can be "manipulated" via the act of pumping and dumping. But that's not an argument against bitcoin... it's an argument against ANYTHING.

So why bother with the bitcoin, if you're going to trade commodities then trade real commodities. If you want to trade currency, you can do that as well without using the bitcoin.

reply to post by defcon5


Because bitcoin is superior to all other commodities and currencies. It's decentralized, completely transparent, allows for near instant transactions to anywhere in the world with extremely low fees, I can be in charge of my own money and securely store my wallet file on any device I want, and the list goes on. I'm not in it simply to make money, I'm in it because bitcoin is the future of money (well maybe not bitcoin, but crypto-currency in general).

reply to post by superman2012


Most bitcoin trades are for a fraction of a bitcoin and many traders are competing for each fractional trade to convert to currency. Trades occur about every 10 seconds and as the value of bitcoins gets larger, the smaller the fractional trades are.

With the market volume of bitcoin the way it is it would take years to convert one million dollars worth of bitcoins. Its not like here's my bitcoins, gimme the money. The more I research this the more I find its not a get rich quick scheme.

Also, exchanges require a buy and sell order to be exactly the same before a trade will go threw. I'd imagine its a very big headache for most traders.

reply to post by eManym

Now I haven't tried it myself, but according to my friend who started mining them, he can cash them out for real money anytime he wants. He says they're not like a commodity in the sense that you have to wait for someone to buy them to cash them in.
I guess the broker must take the hit until they sell?
I don't know, what he's telling me it doesn't seem to make sense.

reply to post by eManym

With the market volume of bitcoin the way it is it would take years to convert one million dollars worth of bitcoins. Its not like here's my bitcoins, gimme the money.

False.

Also, exchanges require a buy and sell order to be exactly the same before a trade will go threw. I'd imagine its a very big headache for most traders.

False.

BTW I'm not saying there's anything wrong with owning or trading typical commodities like gold or silver. If you read some of my earlier posts in this thread you will see that I say it's a smart thing to invest in precious metals. I would trade gold and silver myself if the process wasn't so damn complicated and the trading fees weren't so ridiculously high. Trading bitcoin is like the easiest thing in the world, but it's probably going to get much harder very soon because I'm expecting many new regulations which cover crypto-currency to be made within the next few years.

Ok... let me explain this as simply as possible. Assume I have mined myself some bitcoins and I want to sell them. I create an account at Mt. Gox or another exchange and I then transfer my BTC to my Mt. Gox address. Then I can place a sell order for what ever price I want, typically it would be just above the current market value. The order can be partially filled, I don't need to wait until someone else wants to buy the exact amount I'm selling. Then when the order is completely filled or filled to my satisfaction, I now have a positive USD balance in my Mt. Gox account which I can withdraw. I can place a withdrawal request to my bank account, and that is the part which will take the longest period of time because the traditional banking system is slower than a turtle. However there are some exchanges which provide a way to withdraw the funds into PayPal, and that is usually much quicker, but the fees are much higher if you do it that way and there's more risk involved.

ChaoticOrder
The "final form" will be only what the majority of the network wants it to be.

No. That will be exactly what the State mandates it to be.

The simple, mathematical fact, is that bitcoins cannot be confiscated unless the owner wants them to be confiscated, or is tortured or some how black mailed into giving up the password.

I don't dispute that's how BTC is now, but for this to become the true replacement to paper fiat, the Establishment would insist that the digital currency be taxable, tracable, trackable and confiscatable. It won't get final State sanction without it.

-Peace-

If Superman2012 has 1000 bitcoins he wants to sell for $1000 each. There has to be a buyer of the bitcoins at that price unless he reduces his price, which will acquire more dollars. In that case, he would have to take less than what he expects.

With fractional trades, he would have to except a much lower price than $1000 per bitcoin. If he waits and stays with his price of $1000 he will have to wait for buyers to eventually agree to pay that amount and with trades in fractions of a bitcoin this will take a considerable amount of time.

That is what I meant concerning an exact match between buyer and seller. Also, exchanges have a $1000 dollar limit per 24 hours, if his account accumulates that much.

reply to post by Eryiedes

No. That will be exactly what the State mandates it to be.

It doesn't matter what the damn state wants, unless they have the majority of the hashing power (which would currently require more power than all the super computers on Earth combined) they can't change it. That is the whole beauty of bitcoin, it's outside the control of any nation or government, no one owns or controls it, not even the developers. If the developers make a change to the software which no one likes then that change will not be adopted by the network. It's as simple as that.