Colorado's Masterpiece Cakeshop Must Serve Gay Couples Despite Owner's Religious Beliefs, Judge Ru

reply to post by Rosha


Actually, I wasn't comparing gay people to pedophiles, you made that link.

I was coming up with a situation, child marriage, that occurs in many cultures and that would be uncomfortable for many of us to have to participate in the same way that it is uncomfortable for Christians to be forced to participate in a homosexual ceremony. A child marriage would be difficult for many of us because we believe it to be morally wrong much the same way that Christians still believe gay marriage to be morally wrong.

ketsuko
reply to post by theantediluvian

 

So, it's a public accommodation. That doesn't mean all services within in must then be automatically offered to all.

reply to post by theantediluvian


This is ONLY about religious freedoms.

Ones that were denied.

Their religious freedoms would not have stopped their wedding. They (the bakery) only wished NOT to participate in the wedding.

Are you comparing a reluctance to participate with honour killings?

These Islamic honour killing are actions that directly impact another individual. Apples/oranges and a weak strawman argument.

ketsuko
reply to post by HUMBLEONE

 

Why would the homosexuals be so mean and hurtful as to demand that the Christians participate in a ceremony that does against their beliefs and violates their conscience?

No one batted an eye when the gay bar owners stopped hosting bachelorette parties because they felt it was hurtful to them.

Why would that mean little girl even WANT to sit at the front of the bus! How dare she demand good Christian people allow this action that goes against their beliefs and violates their conscience!!!! No one batted an eyelid when we 'let' them set up a speak easy down the road! Why dont they stay with their own kind!

beezzer
To anyone here. . . .

Since this case sets a precedent, should catholic hospitals be forced to conduct abortions?

Nope

reply to post by beezzer

I take it then, that you would be ok with the state forcing catholic hospitals to perform abortions also, correct?

Why would you assume that? You're comparing one thing to the other are you?

Interesting

In the case of a hospital - I'd have to ask - is the mother's life in danger? I'm sure you know about the case I'm thinking of. What responsibility does the hospital have towards it's patients? Is it against their beliefs to even let a patient know their options? Are they a hospital that will take on patients of varying beliefs? Are they under any obligation to perform procedures that a patient in real danger is counting on? Is the hospitals belief system more important than the mother's life?

I would say that if it's a private hospital - that caters only to other Catholics, where everyone understands that they share the same belief system - I'd say no. So long as the patient knows that up front, and they have the opportunity to receive timely treatment elsewhere. And I mean that

But this is about a commercial service - a product - that is available to everyone - except gays apparently

We have laws against discrimination in this country. Do you mean to say that those laws are wrong?

Or, are they only wrong if your religion says they're wrong? When we're talking about beliefs - why should religion - and religious beliefs - take precedence over the the beliefs, personal philosophies or ethics of anyone else?

Are religious people in a special class? Are they special?

Suppose, beezer - that I believe Jews are the source of all evil in this world. I own a cake shop. It goes against my conscience - my personal belief system - to feed a Jew

That's not as farfetched or outlandish as it first appears by the way - judging by some of the threads I've read here at ATS

Where do we draw those lines?

The laws apply to everyone - religious or not. You can not discriminate

Colo. judge orders Christian baker to bake gay wedding cake. Will he say no?

So far, civil rights agencies and courts have issued similar rulings to the one in Denver on Friday. Earlier this year, the New Mexico Supreme Court weighed in on a seven-year-old case where a lesbian couple argued that Elaine and Jonathan Huguenin, both Christians, discriminated against them when they refused to take pictures at their same-sex ceremony.

The Supreme Court agreed with the lesbians, writing that “a commercial photography business that offers its services to the public, thereby increasing its visibility to potential clients, is subject to the anti-discrimination provisions of the [New Mexico Human Rights Act] and must serve same-sex couples on the same basis that it serves opposite-sex couples.”

jimmyx

beezzer

theantediluvian
If you operate something that is open to the general public, then you have to accept the patronage of ALL of the members of the public.

Can you point out the law that states that?
Can you provide any information that states that when an individual opens a business, he/she can no longer have religious freedoms?

what religious freedom was he denied? he was imposing his religious beliefs on others.

He was expressing his religious beliefs by not participating.

Yet the couple (through the state) forced the bakery to participate.

beezzer
To anyone here. . . .

Since this case sets a precedent, should catholic hospitals be forced to conduct abortions?

absolutely...they have no right to refuse care if they operate as a business...abortion is legal, and we do not live under catholic proclamations, and our constitution does not answer to the catholics...if they do not want to adhere to our laws, get out of the hospital business...but they won't, you know why?...it makes them money

reply to post by theantediluvian


Yeah, you're right. We should allow everyone who wants to to buy tobacco or alcohol anywhere it's served or sold and on any day. We should let people tan at any age for any length of time. Bra fittings for all, even people without breasts or their dogs. Why should any restaurant be allowed to have a dress code? And what's up with Ladies Night, anyway? And why on earth would we let any business close on Sunday or even on a Holiday?

ketsuko
reply to post by Rosha

 

Actually, I wasn't comparing gay people to pedophiles, you made that link.

I was coming up with a situation, child marriage, that occurs in many cultures and that would be uncomfortable for many of us to have to participate in the same way that it is uncomfortable for Christians to be forced to participate in a homosexual ceremony. A child marriage would be difficult for many of us because we believe it to be morally wrong much the same way that Christians still believe gay marriage to be morally wrong.

You made the link dont cop out now.

Does Westborough stand and speak for all Christendom? No? In the same light, there are those people who would abuse Sharia and any other law they could to rape children. It does not make it culturally accepted, only culturally endured.

Ro







Ro

ketsuko
reply to post by HUMBLEONE

 

Why would the homosexuals be so mean and hurtful as to demand that the Christians participate in a ceremony that does against their beliefs and violates their conscience?
No one batted an eye when the gay bar owners stopped hosting bachelorette parties because they felt it was hurtful to them.

They just want some cake dude. Are these "Christian" bachelorette parties? Bottom line, in the words of the late, great Rodney King, "can't we just all get along"?

reply to post by Spiramirabilis


If I forced you to perform a service that goes against your beliefs, am I in the right, then?

What you're stating is that an individuals personal beliefs are not as important as another's.

Are you stating that religious beliefs are secondary to secular beliefs?

I believe abortion is wrong.
You may believe it is ok.

I choose not to participate in abortions.

Yet compared to the bakery case, you would force me to participate in an abortion even though I do not wish to.

Your rights made mine vanish.

beezzer

theantediluvian

beezzer

theantediluvian
If you operate something that is open to the general public, then you have to accept the patronage of ALL of the members of the public.

Can you point out the law that states that?
Can you provide any information that states that when an individual opens a business, he/she can no longer have religious freedoms?

Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II comes to mind.

It put an end to these:

I stated religious freedoms, not disgusting bigotry.

edit on 7-12-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

Religious freedom has been used as an excuse for disgusting bigotry

jimmyx

beezzer
To anyone here. . . .

Since this case sets a precedent, should catholic hospitals be forced to conduct abortions?

absolutely...they have no right to refuse care if they operate as a business...abortion is legal, and we do not live under catholic proclamations, and our constitution does not answer to the catholics...if they do not want to adhere to our laws, get out of the hospital business...but they won't, you know why?...it makes them money

This scares me, Jimmy.

reply to post by beezzer

If I forced you to perform a service that goes against your beliefs, am I in the right, then?

What you're stating is that an individuals personal beliefs are not as important as another's.

Are you stating that religious beliefs are secondary to secular beliefs?

I believe abortion is wrong.
You may believe it is ok.

I choose not to participate in abortions.

Yet compared to the bakery case, you would force me to participate in an abortion even though I do not wish to.

Your rights made mine vanish.

Did you even read my post?

Or, do you just use this space as a place to say anything you want?

Have some respect for the people who are trying to have a real discussion

Or not - up to you

jimmyx

beezzer
To anyone here. . . .

Since this case sets a precedent, should catholic hospitals be forced to conduct abortions?

absolutely...they have no right to refuse care if they operate as a business...abortion is legal, and we do not live under catholic proclamations, and our constitution does not answer to the catholics...if they do not want to adhere to our laws, get out of the hospital business...but they won't, you know why?...it makes them money

But, the person wanting the abortion could always go elsewhere to get it, just like the gay couple could have gone to a different bakery to get their cake, instead of throwing a fit and taking it to court.

If the catholic church or the baker were making it so that no one, anywhere... could get the service they were seeking, then maybe I could see your point.

Since there are plenty of other places to get the desired service, why not just go where your business is wanted?

Spiramirabilis

beezzer

theantediluvian

beezzer

theantediluvian
If you operate something that is open to the general public, then you have to accept the patronage of ALL of the members of the public.

Can you point out the law that states that?
Can you provide any information that states that when an individual opens a business, he/she can no longer have religious freedoms?

Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II comes to mind.

It put an end to these:

I stated religious freedoms, not disgusting bigotry.

edit on 7-12-2013 by beezzer because: (no reason given)

Religious freedom has been used as an excuse for disgusting bigotry

So you get to determine what religious beliefs are valid in another culture or religion?

Must be nice to be the boss!

Rosha

ketsuko
reply to post by HUMBLEONE

 

Why would the homosexuals be so mean and hurtful as to demand that the Christians participate in a ceremony that does against their beliefs and violates their conscience?

No one batted an eye when the gay bar owners stopped hosting bachelorette parties because they felt it was hurtful to them.

Why would that mean little girl even WANT to sit at the front of the bus! How dare she demand good Christian people allow this action that goes against their beliefs and violates their conscience!!!! No one batted an eyelid when we 'let' them set up a speak easy down the road! Why dont they stay with their own kind!

I guess she could sit at the front of the bus? unless it was maybe a "christian" bus, then maybe she couldn't eat cake in the front of the bus? Lets move all the friggin cake eaters to the back of the bus okay?

Spiramirabilis
reply to post by beezzer

 

Did you even read my post?

Or, do you just use this space as a place to say anything you want?

Have some respect for the people who are trying to have a real discussion

Or not - up to you

Yeah, I read it, sorry you didn't like my reply.

beezzer
To anyone here. . . .

Since this case sets a precedent, should catholic hospitals be forced to conduct abortions?

Different kettle of fishes...Most catholic hospitals are also private not public and so they can legally refer operations or refuse as they deem fit, passing cases on to other services. There is a law safeguarding this right of private medical membership just as there are laws that allow for individual doctors to chose what services they offer or won't without liable or self incrimination.


Ro