What Will It Take To Believe?

Hello again. Please move if in wrong form.

Quite clearly I have a lot of time spare today. Although I believe I am putting it to good use as I have been scouring over the web and on ATS, looking at different stories and what not. Now, I recently, literally an hour ago or so, put up a thread regarding Project Camelot. Just asking what people's views are on them. Not tooting their horn or scorning, just asking for ideas. I explained, that being a newbie in this realm, I am not up to scratch on all conspiracies, whether it's an assassination, or visits from another life form. When doing such web surfing, I hold the morales that I will always read and think about everything I look at, at the same time, evidence is something that I, and everybody, will always look for to support claims. I give everything and everyone a chance, until it comes to a point where I can conclusively say, IN MY MIND, whether I believe them or not.

It's this outlook, which I like to believe many share with me, that has led to me ask ATS, which I believe to be the digital hub for all people interested in this field, what it would take to believe somebody who comes forward?

Now, the answer, would on the surface, be easy to make. IE, if every person who has come forward would produce evidence and/or cause such a stir as Edward Snowden, then we would believe easily. However, what if, evidence in the form of pictures, materials or footage was genuinely NOT available, and all we had purely was the word? Can we still believe? Do we trust or do we completely deny straight away? There are a lot of people who fall under the category of having nothing to prove anything they say. I imagine many people are thinking of the same people right now. Has the digital age of video, images and easily available content really extended the line between truth and full of it?

If I was to have genuinely seen an alien craft hover over my house last night, and I saw ET's in the craft, and I instantly posted on here, but had no evidence, because at the time I may have been having a smoke, and had no camera of phone on me… How many people would believe me? I would be very frustrated that no one would believe me. Of course I would understand why. I imagine barely anybody would believe me. Of course some people would understand, but the phrase "Pics or it didn't happen" would be thrown around so quickly time would reverse! (Yeah I'm not good with physics haha)

Now, one could argue, that this situation on believing, is exactly where TPTB want us. In their eyes, for someone to be believed, they would need such concrete evidence that if one thing may be wrong, for whatever genuine reason, their expose would be thrown in the trash instantly. Thus making TPBT get away with whatever they are doing.

I really do think this line between truth and full of it is at a critical point. I am just as open minded as the next guy or gal, but even I have caught myself thinking "No pics no truth". Now, for someone as open minded as me, why have I been influenced that way? And why, as a community which should be supporting people who "Whistle blow", are we not as supportive to people with such a large amount of evidence, that it's too good to be true. (Even there, believing is questioned)

If we want to get that ultimate disclosure event (Whatever that is), what do we need to do as a community, to get the world at large to believe genuine truths that may lack supportive evidence?

What will it take to believe?


Thanks for reading.

reply to post by brace22


I am glad you posted this. I recently hired on a gentlemen at work that was talking about how he was leaving soon to go to Alaska for vacation. I asked him if he was going to Gnome Alaska. His face got serious and asked me why I'd ask a thing like that. I kind of chuckled because I was kind of in shock at how serious he was when he asked me that. I told him people here at work always give me crap because I am a "believer" in ET and what not and as soon as I said that his shoulders dropped and you could see the relief in his face. Its been three weeks today that I have hired him and he finally opened up to me about why he was so stand offish about what I had said.

his story

When he was about 26 he was starting to get strange marks on his back and shoulders. He thought maybe he was sleep walking. Then he was having many dreams of Alien life forms stealing him from his room. Then they got worse and he got to the point he was afraid to sleep in his own room. It didn't matter what room he went to they followed. After a couple of months him and his wife moved several miles away after consulting a preacher and the preacher said it must be demonic. The first night he was in his new house was the worst of them all is what he told me. He said he remembers the entire abduction process and on several levels remembers the pain and memories like they were yesterday. He went on to tell me that they communicated by just staring at one another or almost not even having to look at each other. He said they just were almost all working together like one machine one entity. It finally stopped when he said he kind of tried pleading in his mind instead of whaling out loud. He said that he remembers them stopping everything they were doing and staring at him, he fell asleep and woke up in his house alone. His wife left him and the visitations stopped.

MUFON actually came to visit him and tried to get him to go to a Doctor in Minnesota to do hypnotherapy. He refused to do so and to this day he regrets not doing it while they offered to pay. Now it will cost him too much is what he says.

Now what I am stuck here wondering is all my life I have wanted to meet somebody that had been abducted and really nail them with questions. I think while this gentlemen told me this I really do believe what he is telling me. The emotion involved in this story isn't like you'd see on TV. He didn't realize I was watching his arm hairs stand on end and watched his eyes and face for signs of lies he didn't know what I was doing while I listened because he was so immersed into telling me what happened to him that he didn't stop talking. You could tell by his face and his aura he just needed to be heard.

2 days ago I actually went to his house and hung out with him and yeah I was there on an incredibly selfish journey to prove him to be a fraud. I went to his house and while I was there I looked for clues to what he had for reading material what he watches on TV and what not. Not one damned book could be found on his shelves that related to anything he had told me. We were surfing the net and I asked him if he digs around on the net for stuff relating to what had happened to him. I asked him on the spot so then I knew he could delete anything if he had the balls to show my his history. He showed me his history and all the was on there was a bunch of investment sites and fox and cnn news lol. As we hung out I had a great time and he talked more into detail about what happened and I asked him if he could draw some stuff for me and he said he will. I am looking forward to the art because after all I did hire him as a drafter and so I am looking forward to some good art.

When it comes down to it I feel like a jerk for not believing my first thought that he was genuine and that I used him to try and prove him wrong and I couldn't. I apologized for my selfish actions once we were a wee bit tipsy. I think that you can discredit anything at any given point if you try hard enough. I am bought and sold on this story from my employee that blew my mind.

reply to post by VoidWalker


Thank you so much for that reply. Perfect case & point for this thread.

It really is amazing, that just because your friend is not a conspiracy not, or does loads of research into UFO's, you naturally questioned his plausibility. But, because of your human nature to pick up on his emotions, body actions and so forth, you didn't need the evidence. Your mind made it's point straight away.

So could I argue that it could be the digital age, that removes that emotion, that removes that human sense, is the reason to why the line between truth and lie is so big?

reply to post by VoidWalker


I forgot to mention, you really shouldn't feel bad for your investigative mind. It's natural after all. And I imagine he didn't mind, because he had nothing to hide

reply to post by brace22


I believe whole heartedly that because of our digital age skeptics will never believe ever again. It is a sad thought and I truly wish people could have had the chance that I had to meet this person. He is an incredible individual with nothing to hide. His own sense of embarrassment was quite enough for me.

It is too easy for people to manipulate many things, but raw human emotion will never be perfected. His testament is enough for me.

reply to post by brace22


S&F for you!

reply to post by brace22


Thanks for this post.

I've always been 80% skeptic and 20% very open minded about ufos. The only reason for the 20% is because I've experienced 100% undeniable 'spiritual occurrences causing physical effects'. So if that is rare but true, then who am I to look down my nose at someone who has experienced a ufo?

Now of course that I've clearly and with no possibility of a mundane explanation seen a honking huge and impressive triangular ufo, I must say that its totally reasonable to believe in ufos. Now that thing could be military industrial complex built. But that doesn't matter. The thing looked like something that wouldn't be out of place on an episode of Star Trek (like a planetary defense craft).

So I have no idea who/what built it or if it was actually a 'spiritual projection' too. But now I understand how people can reasonably believe in ufos.

I may have been a bit unfairly skeptical too.

brace22
If we want to get that ultimate disclosure event (Whatever that is), what do we need to do as a community, to get the world at large to believe genuine truths that may lack supportive evidence?

Lack of evidence is a tough nut. You need increasing levels of proof in order to believe something.
My list in order of importance:

* multiple detailed descriptions of the same thing, at the same time, by different people, none of them anonymous.
* multiple images/photos of the same thing, at the same time, by different people, none of them anonymous.
* some kind of physical evidence directly linked to the thing.
* testimony by a consensus of independent, non-affiliated experts that the physical evidence is "alien" (or whatever).
* confirmation by authority figures (President, Pope, Warren Buffett, etc.) that the experts are right
* personal access to the thing or the evidence to look at it, touch it, put your tongue on it, etc.

Doesn't matter what it is. It could be aliens, time travelers, Bigfoot, JFK Assassination evidence, Jesus in the past or returned, life after death, Elvis alive... whatever. If you can get all these ducks in a row, it would be hard for most people to dismiss whatever it is you're trying to prove. Of course there will always be people who refuse to believe, just because they're inherently contrary or crazy.

But if you can present good evidence that can be repeated and studied, agreed to by experts without a dog in the fight, confirmed by multiple authorities, and also have it available for personal experience, that's going to be hard to ignore. Experience plus consensus. I don't think that's too much to ask for.

KellyPrettyBear
So I have no idea who/what built it or if it was actually a 'spiritual projection' too. But now I understand how people can reasonably believe in ufos.

I may have been a bit unfairly skeptical too.

I don't have any problems with people describing their unusual experiences, and I accept that they considered these things to be "real." I usually have no reason to assume these people are just outright lying.

But I also hope these people understand that since I wasn't there, and without any good, hard evidence to back up what they say, I can't personally incorporate it into my understanding of reality.

The witness saw a UFO? Bigfoot? Met Jesus in a truck stop? Good for them. It must have been cool. Does their story make me believe in (alien) UFOs or Bigfoot? Sorry, no. I wasn't there. There's no other evidence. So I have to file that story away in the ol' Curiosity File, and that's as far as it goes.

reply to post by Blue Shift


Yep. I had your attitude about ufos for 52 years.
I'm purely have to see it to truly believe it too.

reply to post by brace22


I believe in the Law of One and we choose our paths each time we die to learn lessons and to grow spiritually as we search within ourselves on how to get back to the one true creator of love/light.

With that said I believe that because some souls may be farther along that path then others that they chose to have these experiences while others chose not to. The real mind bender is, are we who believe and have experiences farther along in the process or eons behind?

This is why no evidence would ever suffice for non believers, not even a white house lawn landing would do it because non believers would say hoax or project blue beam or yada yada. I believe you choose this to happen, now you have to figure out why to progress upward toward the love/light of the true creator.

reply to post by Blue Shift


Your list presents absolute total proof of the existence or happenings of an event. Now, lets take your perfectly acceptable and respectful list, and compare to someone who would need simply words to believe. Thats a big gap huh. 50 years ago, do you think that gap would be the same without personal cameras, the internet and so forth?

reply to post by VoidWalker


I would also love the chance to meet your friend! You should get him on ATS to say his story! If he is comfortable to do it.


Thank you!

reply to post by NONPOINT21


That is an awesome way of looking at. I love how your spirit will determine whether a genuine UFO landing on the Presidents lawn was real or not. That, in turn makes the idea that the "world" is pulled over our eyes theory come into play! haha I love how one theory leads to another.

IN the bigger picture of your post. I instantly felt an attachment to your beliefs that we pick and choose our souls destiny. I can't say I believe it 100%. But I love that idea, to the point I hope/wish that is the real thing going on. The only question I have for you is this…

If we pick and choose each individual journey our soul takes, why can't we remember previous journeys? And, in light of this thread, and I say this purely for conversation and debatable reasons, not because I am challenging you, what evidence would have to be provided in order to make THE most hardcore skeptic believe you?

One single piece of photographic ,video or physical evidence that can't be disputed. Not multiple pieces, just one which has not happened to this point.

Not something that if you look at it from a certain light while hanging upside down and holding your breadth you might see a shape that could be an alien ship. Something that a panel of experts from different countries and skill sets look at and all say "yup, that is alien technology without a doubt " and their are no voices raised in disagreement.

Personal experiences are great and I don't doubt people believe the stories they are telling but the mind, perception and the environment can and do play tricks on what people report. So for me it needs to be something that fully removes the human element.

Don't get me wrong, I want to believe like so many others but the older I get reading second hand accounts of Roswell or looking at 3 generation copies of the STS video no longer works for me.

reply to post by opethPA


So form your perspective, a long time of not receiving hard evidence has led you to expect really high standards of evidence in order to prove anything?

I think thats fair my friend.

reply to post by brace22


I will speak to him about that as soon as he is more comfortable about it. I asked him if later I could record him and he said yes in time. So I will keep you updated with details.

reply to post by NONPOINT21


I once saw this movie that was made in the late 80's with Rip Torne in it. I believe it was called Defending Your Life. In this movie it talks about how people die many many times in their "time" in the pursuit to become a perfect being or get to heaven. It talks about certain percentages of your brain will open every time you have died and moved forward. Check it out its a good flick

reply to post by VoidWalker


Yes that would be great. Of course this is not for entertainment purposes. But we have such a good case here.

Here is someone you have know personally, you looked into his eyes and had a physical conversation with him, and the result was your belief in him. You looked for evidence, but it was entirely human nature and emotion from him that led you to believe him. And by the sounds of it, you indeed like evidence in informing your decisions. Your belief came entirely from not having the internet, or the digital space not influencing your decision. So with that in mind, having your friend state their case into the digital realm, would give evidence how big that truth/fullofit line has become.

Of course, in saying that, this doesn't mean treating him like a lab rat. And I think before hand his mindset and how comfortable he is with it is of upmost importance, along with assurance the ATS community will not bomb him.

reply to post by brace22


I do not think I would willingly throw him to the ATS piranhas. The loss of his wife and close friends has impacted him greatly. I won't do anything to break our bond we have right now. Because he is ignorant to this sites existence I do think the best I could do is sit and talk with him recording it and put together a QA session through ATS. He is my friend and like you said not my lab rat but he also knows my genuine interest in his life. I really want to show him he isn't alone. Sounds weird, but I can tell he is one fragile gentlemen.