Creationism cannot be true

Any takers?

Again, with the naked eye, how does outer space look like - especially at night?

How would outer space looked like from the vantage point of a person (a nomad) living 3000 years ago - with no knowledge of tiny space particles?

Let me add this:

How would outer space appear when there are no visible stars in a moonless night or cloudless day?

Would it appear to be empty space or not?

What say you?

reply to post by MamaJ


You will have to go look it up if you want to understand. Being willing to educate yourself is key to enjoying this life to the fullest. Read the accounts and then come and talk to me. Only if you seek this knowledge on your own will you ever understand.

As far as the earth spinning in space, this is def not a supernatural event. We understand exactly why and how the planets "spin in space". You simply cant put your head around it or maybe you dont understand the definition of the word.

The magic that you are in so much awe of is really just natural occurance. Chemistry never works two different ways. When you study it you will see that you can come to know what to expect. When you start to understand this you will not be so overwhelmed.

reply to post by roundpyramid


Show me the proof that you speak of

I think its a matter of faith. I see something almost every week that lends it's self to supporting my faith. Have you heard of sonoluminescence? Basically, its light from sound. And god said, let there be light and there was light. Light from sound. Sonoluminescence is proof of this. I was watching a video of Dr. Sylvester James Gates Jr. was showing support of intelligent design. If we can agree on intelligent design then its not so hard to take the leap of faith that God created the universe.

S & F.

The main problem I have with religious people, (not all, but a decent chunk) is how ignorant they are. Everyone on this planet has there own opinions, and if John down the street wants to believe that there is a magical floating invisible wizard in outer space, than by all means, let him. It saddens me that most religious people don't feel the same, as soon as you believe in something different, the hate game begins. In all honesty, Christians too me can be compared to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes. People reading a piece of fiction, and taking it way overboard..

ItzShadyT
S & F.

The main problem I have with religious people, (not all, but a decent chunk) is how ignorant they are. Everyone on this planet has there own opinions, and if John down the street wants to believe that there is a magical floating invisible wizard in outer space, than by all means, let him. It saddens me that most religious people don't feel the same, as soon as you believe in something different, the hate game begins. In all honesty, Christians too me can be compared to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes. People reading a piece of fiction, and taking it way overboard..

Wow! How ironic!

So nice of you.

You just insulted "religious people" as "ignorant" and calling their god "magical floating invisible wizard in outer space", then compared Christians "to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes".

How should religious people respond to this?

The Bible is not a scientific text. Let’s just get that out of the way. It was never intended to be but is instead a theological work that builds a case for a creator and allows him to speak to us through the prophets and others that he saw fit to reveal his earthly plans and explore/explain our relationship with him.

The bible does not need to present a scientific case to convey its message. It only is necessary to tell us what God thought was relevant for our salvation. If the ancient Israelite s and others had known there was dust in space it would have done zero to enhance their lives or interaction with the world. This knowledge was not necessary for thousands of years and is even now only truly relevant to those who have made space and those sciences their profession which would encompass say 70-100 years at best of earth history and the most minute percentage of people.

The mentions of creation in the bible are to show us that the universe was created by the creator and had a beginning. It tells us that it is sustained by God and that his will is what gives the world and creation order which are shown through our observations which we now relate to science. It gives us no specifics except to show order which emanates from our creator. Science now can confirm this order which they call laws and constants. It is to show us that we are separate from the creator and that we were designed by him to be in his likeness (which is open to debate on the exact meaning or degree of "likeness") . It is to demonstrate our relation to the heavenly realms in a spiritual sense and our relation to the environment around us in relation to our interactions, responsibilities and dominion over it.

These are declarations which ran counter to the concepts of divinity/divinities in cultures which were hostile to the Israelite s that were around them and over them and were necessary to carry out prophecy, establish a nation and culture(Israel/Jews), and eventually bring about the birth, death, and resurrection of Christ for the redemption of mankind as well as teach us how to interact with God and each other.

Anything else said is in this thread is basically going to be conjecture or affirmations of scientific observations with current tools and knowledge as we are taught according to modern theories.

edmc^2

ItzShadyT
S & F.

The main problem I have with religious people, (not all, but a decent chunk) is how ignorant they are. Everyone on this planet has there own opinions, and if John down the street wants to believe that there is a magical floating invisible wizard in outer space, than by all means, let him. It saddens me that most religious people don't feel the same, as soon as you believe in something different, the hate game begins. In all honesty, Christians too me can be compared to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes. People reading a piece of fiction, and taking it way overboard..

Wow! How ironic!

So nice of you.

You just insulted "religious people" as "ignorant" and calling their god "magical floating invisible wizard in outer space", then compared Christians "to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes".

How should religious people respond to this?

However they feel they need to. Like I said, everybody has there own opinions. I can't say for a fact that christians, let alone catholics, muslims, hindus or any other religion is wrong, because I wouldn't know. However, again in MY opinion. It's kind of childish to believe in a book written by kooks in the desert how many years ago? Logic is your friend.

reply to post by Krazysh0t

Edit: Since some people are unclear what kind of Creationism I'm speaking about. I am talking about the Christian creation account. The reason for this is because the believers of that are the primary ones who constantly attack Evolution. I thought this would have been clear based on the OP, but I guess I was wrong. The term Creationism describes the Christian account as well. By no means am I trying to refute that the universe was created. Just the biblical account of it.

I respect a great deal of your posts Krazy. But this just seems so tit for tat.
And for you to say anything as if you know it to be true concerning existance.
You've over stepped your bounds and entered the point of only laughable.
Claiming things you just couldn't possibly know, is pathetic.

ItzShadyT

edmc^2

ItzShadyT
S & F.

The main problem I have with religious people, (not all, but a decent chunk) is how ignorant they are. Everyone on this planet has there own opinions, and if John down the street wants to believe that there is a magical floating invisible wizard in outer space, than by all means, let him. It saddens me that most religious people don't feel the same, as soon as you believe in something different, the hate game begins. In all honesty, Christians too me can be compared to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes. People reading a piece of fiction, and taking it way overboard..

Wow! How ironic!

So nice of you.

You just insulted "religious people" as "ignorant" and calling their god "magical floating invisible wizard in outer space", then compared Christians "to overly fanatic fans of Harry potter and the likes".

How should religious people respond to this?

However they feel they need to. Like I said, everybody has there own opinions. I can't say for a fact that christians, let alone catholics, muslims, hindus or any other religion is wrong, because I wouldn't know. However, again in MY opinion. It's kind of childish to believe in a book written by kooks in the desert how many years ago? Logic is your friend.

So by saying it's "childish to believe in a book written by kooks in the desert" do you mean these:

Teaching about the Law
17 “Do not think that I have come to do away with the Law of Moses and the teachings of the prophets. I have not come to do away with them, but to make their teachings come true. 18 Remember that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with—not until the end of all things.[a] 19 So then, whoever disobeys even the least important of the commandments and teaches others to do the same, will be least in the Kingdom of heaven. On the other hand, whoever obeys the Law and teaches others to do the same, will be great in the Kingdom of heaven. 20 I tell you, then, that you will be able to enter the Kingdom of heaven only if you are more faithful than the teachers of the Law and the Pharisees in doing what God requires.

Teaching about Anger
21 “You have heard that people were told in the past, ‘Do not commit murder; anyone who does will be brought to trial.’ 22 But now I tell you: if you are angry with your brother you will be brought to trial, if you call your brother ‘You good-for-nothing!’ you will be brought before the Council, and if you call your brother a worthless fool you will be in danger of going to the fire of hell. 23 So if you are about to offer your gift to God at the altar and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar, go at once and make peace with your brother, and then come back and offer your gift to God. 25 “If someone brings a lawsuit against you and takes you to court, settle the dispute while there is time, before you get to court. Once you are there, you will be turned over to the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be put in jail. 26 There you will stay, I tell you, until you pay the last penny of your fine.

Teaching about Adultery

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But now I tell you: anyone who looks at a woman and wants to possess her is guilty of committing adultery with her in his heart. 29 So if your right eye causes you to sin, take it out and throw it away! It is much better for you to lose a part of your body than to have your whole body thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away! It is much better for you to lose one of your limbs than to have your whole body go off to hell. Teaching about Divorce 31 “It was also said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a written notice of divorce.’ 32 But now I tell you: if a man divorces his wife for any cause other than her unfaithfulness, then he is guilty of making her commit adultery if she marries again; and the man who marries her commits adultery also. Teaching about Vows 33 “You have also heard that people were told in the past, ‘Do not break your promise, but do what you have vowed to the Lord to do.’ 34 But now I tell you: do not use any vow when you make a promise. Do not swear by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35 nor by earth, for it is the resting place for his feet; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Do not even swear by your head, because you cannot make a single hair white or black. 37 Just say ‘Yes’ or ‘No’—anything else you say comes from the Evil One.

Teaching about Revenge
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But now I tell you: do not take revenge on someone who wrongs you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, let him slap your left cheek too. 40 And if someone takes you to court to sue you for your shirt, let him have your coat as well. 41 And if one of the occupation troops forces you to carry his pack one mile, carry it two miles. 42 When someone asks you for something, give it to him; when someone wants to borrow something, lend it to him.

Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your friends, hate your enemies.’ 44 But now I tell you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may become the children of your Father in heaven. For he makes his sun to shine on bad and good people alike, and gives rain to those who do good and to those who do evil. 46 Why should God reward you if you love only the people who love you? Even the tax collectors do that! 47 And if you speak only to your friends, have you done anything out of the ordinary? Even the pagans do that! 48 You must be perfect—just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

www.biblegateway.com...

Really?

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Ok man I wasn't going to reply but I figured it would probably be for your own edification...
I didn't want to read your entire introduction as it became obvious right off that you are Ill equipped to have an opinion on this subject due to your lack of information... First off, creation in Genesis is not of Christian origin it originates with judaism... Second you say that the only creation account is the biblical account and that is incorrect.... Had you been familiar with the Enuma Elish and/or Zecharia Sitchins view of the cuneiform translations from nineveh you would be aware that creation and evolution need not conflict.... By the way, the missing link in the evolutionary "theory" is not one link.... In other words that chart you see where man keeps gettimg more and more erect that shows a missing link.... Well that last jump would represent at last 20 missing links... To get from homo sapien to homo Sapien sapien was a big stretch... I'm not here to school you... Just to let you know that you're attacking the wrong religion on the creation account and that the biblical isn't the only one... Enjoy yourself verifying what I say...

Science is a really interesting topic, its all theory until something is proven... But didn't science once prove that the black race was mentally inferior to the whites? Science is constantly manipulated and changing as new information becomes available... OP... Explain to me what science says as to why we all don't just fall off this planet as it rotates... You'll probably say its gravity and call me an idiot... But dude... Science can't explain gravity... You need to do a lot of reading and research bro..

Well.....I have been coming to ATS for about 6 years now and have never found myself wanting to reply to a post until now.....so thank you for that.

First....you mention that the Bible contradicts itself in the first and second chapter of Genesis. The first chapter is sort of an overview if you will.....showing the big picture. The second chapter is narrowing in on man and what went on with him. There are no contradictions just confusion on your part.

Second....ok....I can't "prove" that there is a God or that the earth was made by Him or that it was made by Him in a certain amount of time. I also can't "prove" that I love my wife and kids but I do. I can't "prove" that Hitler hated Jews....but he did. I can't "prove" that you hate Christians and just got out of your first science class in college and are all excited about what your idiot professor told you but.....you probably did.

Science is science, calculating tensile strength of metals and boiling points of this and melting points of that. Science has no more "proof" of how we got here than the Bible has "proof". But.....if scientists were unafraid to look at our beginnings and the earths with the point of view that creationism is a valid thing to look at.....then we might have more proof.

Science is not protected by the constitution.....religion is. There is a reason for this. Religion does not set out to attack science but in the theory of evolution....science does set out to attack religion. Your post is "proof" of this. Your "proof" of biblical contradictions are only "proof" of your hate. My physics professor at Boston Architectural (many years ago) was a brain researcher for the Mars project at MIT. He stated that most physicists "knew" there had to be a creator but were in fear of their jobs and status and would never admit it. As a side note....he also told us that our jump from non-stealth technology to stealth technology was impossible.

You also gave a link to 5 reasons evolution is real or some such silliness. I clicked on it to find things like because of "A" and "B" there must be "C". The problem with this is that we don't even know the alphabet yet and don't even know what language we are speaking and yet we are supposed to assume that some half moon shaped line "c" is the answer to everything. It mentions DNA similarities in all these different animals and states that proves we all came from the same ancestors ......or.... it could prove......nothing.

thanks for making me stay up until 2am

reply to post by Krazysh0t


Your understanding of the terms presented in Genesis may be inadequate. Your understanding of details you relate to contradict the Genesis account may be inadequate and lacking as well.

You are being too silly for me to read the rest of your BS aside from the title which is a catchy one.

Another_Nut
once we create a life form evolution will be proven false.
infinite regression (creator of the creator) falls apart if we create life.
if our creation has a creator then its creator must have a creator.

Logical fallacy. The correct form would be:

If that life form has a creator then it's creator may have a creator. Not must, may.

Ok, let me try this.

The Bible was a book that written for virtually illiterate people. People often want more from the Bible... more description, more reason, more proof. The fact is, if the bible was written for the people of today, then that might be what you'd get. But it wasn't.

How can you try and tell people who knew NOTHING of science/evolution about it? What do people expect the Bible to say/do?

I am a true believer in God and that we are NOT just here by accident, by luck, by purely evolution. But i can not sit here and say i follow the Bible word for word and take it so literally. It's a book that has been molded, moved around, taken apart and put back together. It's not the Bible we were supposed to see.

I don't think anyone here truly believes the world was created in a few days... it's not meant to be taken so literally.

When people stop using the faults of the Bible to discredit FAITH.. that's when we'll start to come to accept each other a little bit more.

We look for problems and gaps in everything and forget all the good that can be taken from faith.

borntowatch
Ahhhm
This is a silly argument
Christianity is a faith. Science has to prove it wrong and justify the reality of evolution. So far science has failed.

F A I T H

You cant understand the complexities of creationism by arguing against it, you need to study it and then dissect it.

The saddest part of your assumption is that you think Christians dont question creation on a theological level constantly

Understand?

Faith is faith, you can't measure it, you can't test it, it's just faith. Evolution is testable, verifiable and arguments can be provided. Christians may question what they want at a theological level, but as far as science is concerned, criationism doesn't exist.

UxoriousMagnus
ok....I can't "prove" that there is a God or that the earth was made by Him or that it was made by Him in a certain amount of time. I also can't "prove" that I love my wife and kids but I do.

Proving you love someone is probably one of the easiest things to prove, im sure your family know you love them right?

I can't "prove" that Hitler hated Jews....but he did.

What?? now this was just plain silly.

I can't "prove" that you hate Christians and just got out of your first science class in college and are all excited about what your idiot professor told you but.....you probably did.

An ad hominem attack? idiot professor? did the OP hit a nerve?

Science is science, calculating tensile strength of metals and boiling points of this and melting points of that. Science has no more "proof" of how we got here than the Bible has "proof". But.....if scientists were unafraid to look at our beginnings and the earths with the point of view that creationism is a valid thing to look at.....then we might have more proof.

Creationism has contributed nothing to science, has no evidence and has been and is pushed by dishonest proponents at every turn. Maybe you could change this?

Science is not protected by the constitution.....religion is. There is a reason for this. Religion does not set out to attack science but in the theory of evolution....science does set out to attack religion.

Set out to attack religion? scientists had a meeting and made up a entire scientific theory in order to attack religion? specifically your religion? If you feel threatened by evolution, maybe your faith wasn't that strong to begin with no?

My physics professor at Boston Architectural (many years ago) was a brain researcher for the Mars project at MIT. He stated that most physicists "knew" there had to be a creator but were in fear of their jobs and status and would never admit it. As a side note....he also told us that our jump from non-stealth technology to stealth technology was impossible.

I know this is ATS, but this is just plain silly. You seem to be implying that within the scientific community there's some kind of conspiracy that's enforced somehow in-order to discredit religion?

And of-course, aliens....

Krazysh0t
reply to post by Another_Nut

 

This isn't a post about evolution. Please stick to the topic at hand. Also, people create life all the time. What do you think having a baby is?

WTH are you saying??
A sperm and a egg is not "A BABY"...
You cant "create" a baby..

Making babies IS evolustion at its finest...

A sperm and a egg joins, and OVER TIME
evolve into a baby.... EVOLUTION

reply to post by JameSimon


Faith isn't testable because it's a gut feeling.Tell me, if you put on a smile... but deep down your sad, is that measurable?

Just because you can't see it yourself and therefore can't measure it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Just a note: Science isn't EVERYTHING. We only know what we know today. in 10 years, science itself will prove itself wrong about a LOT of things. That's just the way science works.

You wouldn't fully trust a man that has a huge chance of being proven wrong in the future.. so why do people hold so much "faith" in science alone?