Water Fluoridation will NOT kill you.

I have taken part in, and have seen, too many threads on ATS that eventually turn into the same thread over and over again with the same lies/mistruths being spread by the same people only to have them disappear as soon as you show them to be wrong.

I hope that we can get to the bottom of this and open some eyes. No offence intended but I do fully expect people to hold fast to their beliefs as it is easier to keep the norm than to change.

I was against water fluoridation for many years. It was wrong, they were poisoning us! Why would they do this!? I talked with my friends about this and none of us could understand why they would do that to us.

I realized that I had done zero research on the subject and had only gone by what people had told me (the internet was not what it was today). No matter where I looked, I couldn’t find any evidence to support what I had once believed with any hard science behind it. I was shocked.

If the argument is because people should have a say in the masses being medicated,I get that and completely agree. Vote or run for office. Demand a vote. There are ways to do this.

This thread is NOT about the lack of choice, it is about the untruths about water fluoridation

Arguments I have heard, and have used, opposing water fluoridation:

1) It is unhealthy to ingest fluoride.

Of course it is, unless you are talking small dosages. Then it is beneficial. Saying it is unhealthy in such a broad sense of the word seems to be the catch all phrase most used because it is true. Just as it is unhealthy to drink bleach but that is the main way to destroy harmful bacteria in the water and in the pipes under the ground to make drinking water safe. In the proper dosage, it is beneficial.

2) Fluoride replaces calcium in your bones.

I keep seeing the same thing everywhere;

Excessive fluoride replaces calcium in the bones, causing them to become brittle and weak.

What is “excessive”? In Canada, the MAC (maximum acceptable concentration) is 1.5 mg/l (ppm). In the USA it is 0.7 mg/l (ppm). None of the claims on the internet actually say in layman’s terms exactly what is excessive. Sure there are studies done on rats and naturally occurring fluoride in excess of 4 mg/l that humans consume, but that isn’t what we are talking about. I’m not surprised though, fear sells.


3) Fluoride destroys the pineal gland.

Here is the study most often cited.
That was a study done on rats and gerbils at higher doses. They did measure the fluoride levels in 11 adult humans but there was no way to know (or they just decided not to say) how the fluoride was ingested, at what levels, for how long, etc. Too many undetermined factors to say this was the result of water fluoridation.

4) The Nazis used it as a way to pacify their captives so it must be horrible.

Charles E Perkins wrote the book, “The Truth about Water Fluoridation". Unfortunately, his “truth” contained zero facts or evidence besides his say so. In fact, he earlier blamed it on the Russians with no evidence and when asked to back that up, he brought up the Nazi connection with no evidence. There again we see the scared masses running to it without doing any research on it whatsoever.
Read the full story here.

5) The government uses is to pacify/dumb down their population.

Again attributed to the Nazi “truth” without any evidence along for the ride is the “Harvard Study” that was done on Chinese untreated water with naturally high concentrations of fluoride. Two myths in one! Look around you. Water has been fluoridated for quite some time in the US. Are all the baby boomers, and later generations bowing down to the government? Are you?

6) People die from overdosing on fluoride through water fluoridation.

There is not ONE person that has been documented being hurt or dying from properly dosed water fluoridation. Again, something else that the anti-fluoride camp claims, without being able to pull a name out. Don’t you think the anti-fluoride websites would be singing those people’s names from the rooftop to garner more interest in their fear campaign?

7) Fluoride is a toxic waste or aluminum or (everything else) waste by-product.

Hexafluorosilicic acid is the most used fluoride in water fluoridation.
This link explains it far better than I can. I think people say it is an aluminum waste byproduct because that sounds scarier than what it is.

Neutralization of solutions of hexafluorosilicic acid with alkali metal bases produces the corresponding alkali metal fluorosilicate salts:

(H3O)2SiF6 + 2 NaOH → Na2SiF6 + 4 H2O

The resulting salt Na2SiF6 is mainly used in water fluoridation. Related ammonium and barium salts are produced similarly for other applications.

If you have a problem with Wikipedia either turn back now, or read the sources at the bottom of the wiki page.
It's not a waster by-product, it is a by-product which will have to be further purified to get rid of contaminants.

8) It affects a person’s fertility.

When male rats were exposed to 2, 4, and 6 ppm of sodium fluoride in their drinking water, their testicles and prostate gland shrank in size. In addition, sperm counts plummeted and the sperm that were produced were dysfunctional. The concentration of protein in the testes (needed to manufacture new sperm) was also significantly suppressed.

Link to study.

Sorry, I will not purchase the full study just to see something that has nothing to do with water fluoridation. This was rats, that were subjected to ppm that are nowhere near the level found in water fluoridation.

9) Millions of years went by without us adding fluoride to our water, so why now?

Why not now? We are learning more new ways to keep people healthier longer. Why poo poo a way just because you don’t understand it and have bought and gift wrapped the fear? Are you against penicillin? Polio vaccines?

10) Compared to cities not fluoridating their water, there are higher incidences of people getting sick with water fluoridation related diseases.

The Newburgh-Kingston 10 year study is the only one I have found where it is similar towns with one drinking unfluoridated water and the other drinking fluoridated water. Special thanks to SalientSkivvy for getting into a one sided debate with me whereupon I came across this. From the Fluoride Action Network (The people against fluoride!!!!).

At the end of ten years, the investigators reported no adverse systemic effects from drinking fluoridated water because no significant differences were found between the results from the two groups.

From here, section 1.2

That right there should kill any scared chatter about fluoride...sadly, it does not.

Continued.....

11) Fluoride lowers the IQ of children.

Yes it does. There were studies done in China and Iran (the Harvard study that all anti-fluoride sites have clung to) that showed excessive NATURAL fluoride in water caused this. Unfortunately, this doesn’t do much for the anti-water fluoridation crowd as water treatment frequently takes out fluoride down to acceptable levels completely negating this argument in regards to water fluoridation.
Link to the study.

12) Sodium Fluoride is not natural.

It is natural. Rare, but it does occur naturally. This is only in here as an argument against a misnomer.
Link

13) In 1997 fluoride was shown to cause 10,000 cancer deaths in a study done by Dr. Dean Burk.

Fluoride causes cancer? Nope. No proof. Dr. Dean Burk claimed 10,000 cancer cases were linked to fluoride. The CDC, the American Cancer Society and the majority of scientists said this was not the case.

This extraordinary claim originated with a paper on the subject of fluoride and cancer, titled ”Fluoridation and cancer, age-dependence of cancer mortality related to artificial fluoridation”, which was originally put forward in 1975 and then again in 1977 by Dr. Dean Burk and fellow fluoridation opponent John Yiamouyiannis¹. However, the paper was not well received by the majority of scientists at the time and the paper’s methodology was criticized, such as for failure to adjust for important variables.

Link to the article.
Unfortunately again, the anti-fluoridian ( I claim this term) will constantly pick the most fear inducing headline to scare people into agreeing with them. Dr. Burk approached fluoride as an activist not as a scientist. You can read all about it in the link.

14) There was a study done (link here) that proves fluoride is a killer!

Again, yes. However, it is all about context. Actually read the study instead buying into the fear and you will find that:

We retrospectively reviewed the imaging data and cardiovascular history of 61 patients who received whole-body sodium [¹⁸F]fluoride PET/CT studies at our institution from 2009 to 2010. Fluoride uptake and calcification in major arteries, including coronary arteries, were analyzed by both visual assessment and standardized uptake value measurement.

What is that!?
They inject it into your veins. That is hardly the same as water fluoridation.

15) The fluoride added to water treatment isn’t “pharmaceutical grade” therefore it is not fit for water fluoridation.

Is there medical grade fluoride for water fluoridation? No. Again, with the fear. They make it seem like if something isn’t medical grade it isn’t fit for humans. Never mind the fact that there is no such “grade” for fluoride. There are different levels of purity, but not different levels of “grade” as described.

16) Why add fluoride to water if it is in toothpaste?

Here is a link with available links already in it. Special thanks to Phage for allowing me to use his post in its entirety.

17) Fluoride keeps your “third eye” closed.

Another wild claim that can’t be proven either way. If I claim it is stopping us all from being able to fly, does that make it real?

Continued.....

To sum it all up, people just don’t understand it. They have failed to educate people as to the reasoning behind water fluoridation and as a result, people fear it and make wild uneducated claims. It is akin to prehistoric man, huddled in caves whispering that the Gods are mad at them because bolts of light and fire are being thrown at the Earth.

The belief that fluoridation began as a “communist plot” was pervasive throughout much of the early far-right opposition to fluoridation. This should not surprise many who are familiar with the Red Scare of the ‘forties and ‘fifties; when fears of communist infiltration where rampant. In The Fluoride Wars: How a Modest Public Health Measure Became America’s Longest Running Political Melodrama, authors R. Allan Freeze and Jay H. Lehr make the following observation:

“One can also identify a historical time line associated with these objections, wherein each issue mirrors the tenor of its times. In the 1950s, wary citizens worried about communist plots. The 1960s saw a growth in concern over military–industrial conspiracies. The 1970s placed fluoridation in an environmental context. The issues of the 1980s and 1990s reflected societal obsessions with personal health, beauty, and aging. Even the diseases targeted by anti-fluoridation forces reflect the fears of the day, as early concerns over Down’s syndrome gave way to anxiety over heart disease, then cancer, and now AIDS.”

However, while new conspiracy theories and arguments have popped up over the decades, this belief still persists to some extent in the echo-chambers of the online anti-fluoridation community. Yet, this belief is little more than a myth based on the flimsiest of evidence.

Even Paul Connett, who heads up the Fluoride Action Network, a major anti-fluoridation organization, and co-author of The Case Against Fluoride, has said, “The historical evidence for this assertion is extremely weak. It is sad that the U.S. media has done such a bad job of educating the public on this issue that it is so easy for crazy ideas to fill the vacuum.”

There you have it. I hoped I covered everything but I am sure that I missed some things. If I have, please feel free to bring them up. I hope this doesn’t turn into every other fluoride thread. If you make a claim, make sure you back it up with something concrete like an independent third party study or at least some hard science. A friend of a friend saying something doesn’t make it so. Your own personal story, doesn’t make it true. There are too many variables unless you kept a diary of exactly what you ate, what you did, how much you drank, blood count, etc. Let’s try and stick to science.

reply to post by superman2012


I would say that since just about every drink of water you drink, and the fact that it's almost impossible to avoid no matter where you go (restaurants, pretty much anywhere with tap water etc) would classify it as "excessive".

So it doesn't kill us, just makes our bones fall apart? Good to know, I suppose.

Wookiep
reply to post by superman2012

 

I would say that since just about every drink of water you drink, and the fact that it's almost impossible to avoid no matter where you go (restaurants, pretty much anywhere with tap water etc) would classify it as "excessive".

So it doesn't kill us, just makes our bones fall apart? Good to know, I suppose.

No, that is not right. Salt is in everything and it doesn't kill us in small amounts. It does not do what you claim...but thanks for reading the whole thread... *eyeroll*

reply to post by superman2012


They got to you too, damit! First it's phage with the GMO's, now they have you pushing water flouridation!

reply to post by superman2012


I don't mean to try and derail your thread, but many here may end up disagreeing with you. The problem I have with fluoride being in the water is it's someone else telling us they know what's good for us, trust us... It's a form of control, no-one gets a choice if they drink tap water. All true or false health effects aside, a lot of people don't like that kind of intervention. So they put it in the water because lot's of people don't take care of their teeth with toothpaste? That was essentially Phage's answer and I personally am not comfortable with that.

reply to post by jaws1975

I'm not pushing it. I'm attempting to show that there are many untruths about it and that people fear it based on faulty intelligence. The anti-fluoride camp either tweaks the data to fit their agenda or uses arguments that are outright lies.

I don't believe that people need to drink fluoride, but until there is a better way to help people with poor dental hygiene, this is the best way. I also don't believe that fluoride in properly dosed water fluoridation will harm anyone, so I don't see a problem.

Wookiep
reply to post by superman2012

 

I don't mean to try and derail your thread, but many here may end up disagreeing with you. The problem I have with fluoride being in the water is it's someone else telling us they know what's good for us, trust us... It's a form of control, no-one gets a choice if they drink tap water. All true or false health effects aside, a lot of people don't like that kind of intervention. So they put it in the water because lot's of people don't take care of their teeth with toothpaste? That was essentially Phage's answer and I personally am not comfortable with that.

Right, and if you read my thread, you would see exactly that this thread isn't for you. I even put it in bold and underlined it...here it is again.

This thread is NOT about the lack of choice, it is about the untruths about water fluoridation

reply to post by superman2012

9) Millions of years went by without us adding fluoride to our water, so why now?

Why not now? We are learning more new ways to keep people healthier longer. Why poo poo a way just because you don’t understand it and have bought and gift wrapped the fear? Are you against penicillin? Polio vaccines?

PROVE IT!!!

Here you are saying it is good to add something that mother nature already provides us to live right?

So prove that adding fluoride to water is GOOD for us!!

Then maybe I might listen to the rest of your (what I perceive as propaganda) ridiculous argument!

Freedom of choice is the key! If you want to eat and drink fluoride then do it! YOUR CHOICE! I choose NOT TO!

So it's in the water because it's "beneficial? How? What is the "proper dose"?

Why isn't Vitamin C, B12, ect put into our water, they are beneficial as well?

Why are there warning labels on toothpaste advising not to swallow if fluoride is so great for us?

Why aren't there fluoride supplements that can be purchased in the stores?

How is swallowing something supposed to help dental hygiene?

reply to post by superman2012


I don't recall ever hearing it would kill you...

My question is what the hell is wrong with pure water?

Its not necessary to use fluoridated water... Where I live they do not use it... and the water is perfectly fine...

Seems to be just another chemical TPTB are feeding the general public...

Perhaps its safe... but theres no reason to use it in the first place

superman2012

Wookiep
reply to post by superman2012

 

I don't mean to try and derail your thread, but many here may end up disagreeing with you. The problem I have with fluoride being in the water is it's someone else telling us they know what's good for us, trust us... It's a form of control, no-one gets a choice if they drink tap water. All true or false health effects aside, a lot of people don't like that kind of intervention. So they put it in the water because lot's of people don't take care of their teeth with toothpaste? That was essentially Phage's answer and I personally am not comfortable with that.

Right, and if you read my thread, you would see exactly that this thread isn't for you. I even put it in bold and underlined it...here it is again.

This thread is NOT about the lack of choice, it is about the untruths about water fluoridation

Oh well excuse me sir, I will now be silent on the issue and bow out of the discussion. Thanks for being a douchenozzle! Have a nice day, be sure to drink your fluoride!

reply to post by Carreau

So it's in the water because it's "beneficial? How? What is the "proper dose"?

Anything that is under or at the MAC.

Why isn't Vitamin C, B12, ect put into our water, they are beneficial as well?

Are vitamin deficient people costing much to the taxpayer when they go to the hospital? Sources?

Why are there warning labels on toothpaste advising not to swallow if fluoride is so great for us?

That is a higher concentration than what is in the tap water. That is why there are MAC's.

Why aren't there fluoride supplements that can be purchased in the stores?

There are. Check around the pharmacy.
Edit: Sorry, I missed your edit.

How is swallowing something supposed to help dental hygiene?

Before you swallow it, it goes all over the mouth making contact with and leaving fluoride on your teeth.

Wookiep

superman2012

Wookiep
reply to post by superman2012

 

I don't mean to try and derail your thread, but many here may end up disagreeing with you. The problem I have with fluoride being in the water is it's someone else telling us they know what's good for us, trust us... It's a form of control, no-one gets a choice if they drink tap water. All true or false health effects aside, a lot of people don't like that kind of intervention. So they put it in the water because lot's of people don't take care of their teeth with toothpaste? That was essentially Phage's answer and I personally am not comfortable with that.

Right, and if you read my thread, you would see exactly that this thread isn't for you. I even put it in bold and underlined it...here it is again.

This thread is NOT about the lack of choice, it is about the untruths about water fluoridation

Oh well excuse me sir, I will now be silent on the issue and bow out of the discussion. Thanks for being a douchenozzle! Have a nice day, be sure to drink your fluoride!

lol...douchenozzle because you can't read...okay.
I would have no problem drinking something that won't harm me, thanks!

wow, could you please do a thread about how Mercury in vaccines won't kill us either? then cite studies that show that it will cause Alzheimers though... how about you provide evidence for it actually being beneficial to teeth? then when you can't do that, how about you sit and think, well if its not good for teeth, why is it in the water and toothpaste.. hmmm.. and if the government doesn't give a # about your health, why would they spend all that money years ago adding it to water so that Americans would have a nice smile? does that make sense to you? why not add vitamins to the water? we know vitamins are good right? or amino acids? nootropics? we've known that for a while but I don't see them adding vitamins to the water... maybe nestle will do it when they privatise your water.

and surely the evidence for it dumbing people down is the fact that America is full of idiots? they posted the international educational test results on ATS just the other day, America is WAY below average, that's the whole nation, all different educational methods, what does almost the entire nation have in common? fluoride, and it was the Americans who used fluoride in Indonesia to test its ability to 'subdue' people.. then when it worked, they put it in the water, few years later, America has lower I.Q on average than some former third world countries... and yes, low doses if ingested are maybe not too bad, but combine all the low doses with the fact that the toothpaste is applied to your gums, which absorbs it and takes it to your heart and brain... then things are a bit different. (50% of all heart disease starts as gum disease, in case your wondering what the heart has to do with the gums) from the heart it is then pumped all the way through the body...

why even make a post like this? if you don't care or doubt that fluoridation is bad then by all means, keep using it but don't try and 'debunk' something when you can't prove it either way, the people who are saying don't use fluoride may be wrong ( but they're probably not..) but they're not potentially seriously risking peoples health by saying not to use it, you are by telling them to use it... they're only risking peoples teeth as opposed to the mind and I.Q. that you are gambling..

Akragon
reply to post by superman2012

 

I don't recall ever hearing it would kill you...

My question is what the hell is wrong with pure water?

Its not necessary to use fluoridated water... Where I live they do not use it... and the water is perfectly fine...

Seems to be just another chemical TPTB are feeding the general public...

Perhaps its safe... but theres no reason to use it in the first place

There are threads where people claim that others have died. Nothing is wrong with pure water, just as there is nothing wrong with fluoridated water. The only reason is to help people with poor dental hygiene.

reply to post by Elijah23

Just about everything you claimed is answered in my thread.
With the exception of this:

and it was the Americans who used fluoride in Indonesia to test its ability to 'subdue' people.. then when it worked, they put it in the water, few years later, America has lower I.Q on average than some former third world countries.

Can I please see this study or a link to this?

Thanks in advance!

Edit:

why even make a post like this?

What is the slogan of ATS again?

superman2012

Akragon
reply to post by superman2012

 

I don't recall ever hearing it would kill you...

My question is what the hell is wrong with pure water?

Its not necessary to use fluoridated water... Where I live they do not use it... and the water is perfectly fine...

Seems to be just another chemical TPTB are feeding the general public...

Perhaps its safe... but theres no reason to use it in the first place

There are threads where people claim that others have died. Nothing is wrong with pure water, just as there is nothing wrong with fluoridated water. The only reason is to help people with poor dental hygiene.

Ahhhhhhh.... of course!!

Because they honestly care about us... and our poor dental hygene LMAO!!

Sorry that must have slipped my mind.... I completely forgot how much the people that rule us care about our well being...

Bleach is safe to drink in small quantities too... cleans out your insides ye know...

Tell ya what... You just keep drinking your fluoridated water... better yet why not flavor it with some tooth paste... that way you're sure to prevent cavities

LOL!!

Akragon

superman2012

Akragon
reply to post by superman2012

 

I don't recall ever hearing it would kill you...

My question is what the hell is wrong with pure water?

Its not necessary to use fluoridated water... Where I live they do not use it... and the water is perfectly fine...

Seems to be just another chemical TPTB are feeding the general public...

Perhaps its safe... but theres no reason to use it in the first place

There are threads where people claim that others have died. Nothing is wrong with pure water, just as there is nothing wrong with fluoridated water. The only reason is to help people with poor dental hygiene.

Ahhhhhhh.... of course!!

Because they honestly care about us... and our poor dental hygene LMAO!!

Sorry that must have slipped my mind.... I completely forgot how much the people that rule us care about our well being...

Bleach is safe to drink in small quantities too... cleans out your insides ye know...

Tell ya what... You just keep drinking your fluoridated water... better yet why not flavor it with some tooth paste... that way you're sure to prevent cavities

LOL!!

edit on 4-12-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Are you disputing the claim by mocking it rather than addressing the issue? That is another way that the anti-fluoride people obfuscate the issue. Wait for the personal attacks now...oh wait, that already happened!