Best Pareidolia in History: Dr. King, James Bevel, JFK, Lincoln, Goddess of Liberty in iconic photo

I want to do a post to James Karales, the photographer who took this iconic (and now spooky action at no distance) photograph. He died in 2002. His obit:

www.nytimes.com... NY TImes obit of James Karales

James H. Karales, the photojournalist whose 1965 picture of determined marchers outlined against a lowering sky became a pictorial anthem of the civil rights movement, died on Monday. He was 71.

I'm not saying I'm special that I discovered this thing, I just happened to be looking at it. I am happy to be able to be the person to present it. This came about, at first, when I just happened to be looking at the picture a month or so after Bevel died, looking at the copy of it that Bevel had signed for me a little over a week before his death in 2008. So I was in a state of mind mixing the grief of Jim's death with the contemplation of who knows what, I don't remember, when suddenly I recognized Bevel's face in the cloud. I'm not saying it wasn't always there, it was, since the photo was taken, but nobody had ever noticed it before as far as I know. And all the other related faces and goddesses and whatnot that have been found now, many years after the "Bevel" face was found, indicate nothing more than this is one very interesting cloud formation combined with the lucky click of the camera of the photographer. I say lucky click because look at the clouds in that picture, they seem like fast moving clouds. At a minimum, medium-fast moving clouds. It looks like a tumult of weather. So if Karvales didn't click his shutter at that exact moment all of the structures that myself and others are calling faces would have shifted in several directions and in different directions of light reflection. They were there in the picture all along, and we just happened to find them.

Which brings me to a picture Observer1 sent me. I haven't put it on this thread yet, hoping that he would. Sent him a u2u on that. He did indicate that I could use it on the uncyclopedia article, and I've put it on the talk page at the wikia article on the "Guidebook to the Voting Rights Movement related faces in a cloud", an article which has evolved along with this thread. In the picture Observer1 has several finds, which I then found-more from.

He found a new image which seems to be a woman. Almost like a statue. When I saw it at least, from the circle he drew and the amount of light/dark that the picture is seen at, she is very obvious. I don't know who that would be.

He found a very visible new image near the image I'm calling Dr. King, and seems to think it looks like Frederick Douglass. I can see some of that. To me it looks like either James Orange or Jimmie Lee Jackson, and either of those and/or Douglass would fit in with the found narrative of these discoveries (never forgetting that they are clouds - atmospheric effects, water and air in motion). In that same circled portion of the picture that he describes as Douglass I can see Lyndon Johnson standing right behind that person. Ears, caricature nose, forehead, seems to be a good match or, more importantly, one that wouldn't be ruled out of a group of five options. I thought he'd show up.

He found one he's calling Dr. King. I see a face in there, don't know who's. I see Abe Lincoln behind and to the left of that image, either looking down at the marchers or with his back turned. On both views he has on his traditional beard and traditional hat. I expected to find that hat somewhere, and expected it to be attached to the "real" Lincoln image and/or area of atmospheric fluid in turbulent winds, because the other area which was a maybe Lincoln didn't have a hat.

He circles another area which is a large part of the Bevel face.

Observer1's Douglass is better than mine, because the one I found had much too high of a forehead and that has concerned me since I found him and started calling him that.

The King I found has an interesting new twist. Double it's size, move it over to the left a bit, and you have a copy of it. The eyes, nose, mouth, some of the hairline, is repeated at twice the dimension but a little lighter than the almost photo-image of the area some of us are calling Dr. King now.

And the Goddess of Liberty's tiara. A user at the uncy fork, XDshemXD sees the tiara as a five pointed tiara while I saw it, up until her post, as a middle-of-the-hair six-or-so segmented tiara, but can now see it as stretching across the entire top of her hair with the section I thought was the entire tiara as now the centerpiece of a longer tiara (and she's got longish easily seen hair - easily seen once you get her image, and please consider spending as much time on a couple of these as you and I have done staring at those 1990s 3-D posters and books, or looking for objects in the books where you find tiny objects on a page - which goes down to the shoulders of her fluffy dress. She is, like I've said, such a cutey. Couldn't have imagined a better representation of the Goddess of Liberty holding a flaming staff and wearing a darn tiara, and I'll go out on a cloud-limb and say it may very well be the best representation of the Goddess of Liberty anywhere - and what gentle power in that woman, if you can read out the personality of this distributed area of atmospheric disturbance and sections of cloud lit by various angles and percentages of sunlight.

reply to post by Aleister


Amazing and thanks for referring my name. and well written description to the Uncyclopedia . I tried to look over the photo again and the places you marked I will tell you what I tend to feel and see..



At point d I think thats Frederick Douglass because his beard and nose stands out to me..

Point A I cant really say who that is , and hard to tell but I think hes a colored man .His strong cheekbones and nostrils tells me that.

Also point B is a colored man whom I think is Martin Luther but not sure his nose and cheekbones looks like him.

At point C I discovered a white lady don't know who she is?

I'm not always right but I hope someone could see it ..

0bserver1
reply to post by Aleister

 

Amazing and thanks for referring my name. and well written description to the Uncyclopedia . I tried to look over the photo again and the places you marked I will tell you what I tend to feel and see..

At point d I think thats Frederick Douglass because his beard and nose stands out to me..

Point A I cant really say who that is , and hard to tell but I think hes a colored man .His strong cheekbones and nostrils tells me that.

Also point B is a colored man whom I think is Martin Luther but not sure his nose and cheekbones looks like him.

At point C I discovered a white lady don't know who she is?

I'm not always right but I hope someone could see it ..

0bserver1
reply to post by Aleister

 

Amazing and thanks for referring my name. and well written description to the Uncyclopedia . I tried to look over the photo again and the places you marked I will tell you what I tend to feel and see..

At point d I think thats Frederick Douglass because his beard and nose stands out to me..

Point A I cant really say who that is , and hard to tell but I think hes a colored man .His strong cheekbones and nostrils tells me that.

Also point B is a colored man whom I think is Martin Luther but not sure his nose and cheekbones looks like him.

At point C I discovered a white lady don't know who she is?

I'm not always right but I hope someone could see it ..

Thanks for posting this. I didn't mark the places you found here, you did. And remember when looking at the faces, zoom is your friend.

"A" - that's part of the face I describe as James Bevel's, and was the first one I saw over four years ago. The cheekbones and facial structure seemed totally recognizable to me, the line and thickness of the eyebrows, the beard, eyelids closed, even the hint of hat or skullcap and other factors reminded me of Bevel.

"B - I don't see the black fellow, but on the circle you provide, on the left of the circle, I "see" Abe Lincoln with his back turned looking to our right. His traditional beard and stovepipe hat are there, and he's almost full length, standing.

"C' - Good find! It does look very much like a woman's face and neck and shoulders. Almost like a statue. If she follows the theme of the page that should be one of the suffragists making an appearance. She appears to be looking over and off the page to the center-right, but if she's glancing downwards a little she'd be looking at the marchers. See what you think about her angle of sight.

"D" - This is a new face to me, and is obvious once you pointed it out by including the circle on the picture. Seems a little fat of face to be Douglass, but his nose and beard fit, and maybe a head of darker hair than when he was older. Maybe a younger Frederick Douglass. Better than the one I found. A case can also be made for it to be James Orange as a young man, who was active with James Bevel and Diane Nash in the Alabama Project from September 1963 until it evolved into the 1965 Selma Voting Rights Movement. It also looks like the white cloud is a hand laying upon the shoulder of your image.

On your "D" I'm looking at the larger face in back of your image, and it seems like a caricature of Lyndon Johnson. It has large ears, high forehead, beady eyes, kind of like LBJ's image. What do people think?

Here's a link from the OP again, the "Guidebook to the Voting Rights Movement related faces in the cloud".

either uncyclopedia.wikia.com...

This links to uncyclopedia, a satirical website (so stay on the page and don't wander the site, there be dragons there. But also there be no record of page visits, to assure you that this isn't for the views), so the page has a few comedy bits. But I assure you that none of this is made up, or that I'm trying to punk anyone. Enough people have seen some of the faces now to show that I didn't make up a mean-spirited story (although I did make up a narrative, that the faces are all related to the Voting Rights Movement and all look down at the line of marchers). Just presenting, in different formats, some interesting cloud formations. Thanks for giving these cloud formations a fighting chance, or at least consider giving them as much chance as you would give a fairly hard suduko puzzle. Thanks!

reply to post by Aleister


Okay, nice work on clarifying images. There are a few that are nowhere near where I thought they were. If I had more time... well, I'll elaborate as time permits.

One image I keep seeing is in the first dark strip that cuts down diagonally from the top right of the pic.

The second half of this strip looks like the top half of a man in a business suit pointing with outstretched left arm as seen from the back. He's pointing "down" toward the marchers at the same angle as the dark stripe goes.

Regards.

Editx2: it's in the "D" Frederick Douglas area of the above pic for reference. The dark area is the outstretched arm. And to further clarify, it's nowhere as cool as the others where facial features and details are evident... as in the face just to the left of the circle and MLK insert pic at B area, for example. Frankly, I feel silly as heck... but some of these are remarkable, heh.

Man, I don't know what all of you are seeing, but I'm not seeing what you are no matter how long I look. All I see, and someone will probably suck their knickers up & pitch a lame fit, is a Snub-Nosed Monkey in that red circle. Compare images of them to that cloud & tell me it looks human now.

reply to post by Nyiah


Yeah, I know they are hard to see at first, but they seem to come out once one's mind is in the "zone"... the circles in Observer's pic above help alot, too.

There are, indeed, some remarkable details to be found provided one has the time and inclination.

Grasping at clouds ... heh...

Baddogma
reply to post by Aleister

 

One image I keep seeing is in the first dark strip that cuts down diagonally from the top right of the pic.

The second half of this strip looks like the top half of a man in a business suit pointing with outstretched left arm as seen from the back. He's pointing "down" toward the marchers at the same angle as the dark stripe goes.

Regards.

Editx2: it's in the "D" Frederick Douglas area of the above pic for reference. The dark area is the outstretched arm. And to further clarify, it's nowhere as cool as the others where facial features and details are evident... as in the face just to the left of the circle and MLK insert pic at B area, for example. Frankly, I feel silly as heck... but some of these are remarkable, heh.

edit on 12/28/2013 by Baddogma because: (no reason given)

edit on 12/28/2013 by Baddogma because: (no reason given)

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edit on 12/28/2013 by Baddogma because: were to where

Hi. I'm not seeing the business suit guy, do you mean the strips I include in my avatar at the moment? I clearly see a black guy looking out from the clouds there, who I'm calling Dr. King. And do you mean to our left of the "B" area on Observer1's pic? That's a new one for me if so, and I can make it out, its head is tiled almost at the same angle as your RFK, and is looking down on the marchers (EDIT: As I look at it more it's obvious to me who it looks like, but I won't say yet, awaiting your answer). If you mean to the right, much of him in Observer1's "A" insert, that's what I call Bevel.

What we need to do soon are some very good tracings for a side-by-side comparison. The faces are obviously there for those who see them, and more and more of them are being picked out by a few people. I think we, the few, the unproud, are very lucky that until now we are doing this without sketched outlines and sketched details, but just with oldschool words alone which have uncovered many new faces (a.k.a. atmospheric cloud structures).

As cloudies lots of us share in the "discoveries" now, and they still seem to be fitting the pattern. Baddogma, you mentioned earlier you see the Goddess of Liberty that I describe. Can you make out her tiara? I at first saw only the middle section, and then XXDshempDXX at uncy saw five points where I was seeing six, so when I looked again that's when I saw the tiara go all the way across her hair in 10 or 11 distinct sections and includes the upraised middle part of a few sections, looking exactly like a tiara should look.

To other readers and cloud lurkers scratching their heads and moving on, please stay awhile, or come back when we get some traced illustrations up (there will be cloud pizza and beer). At this point zoom is your friend.

Nyiah
Man, I don't know what all of you are seeing, but I'm not seeing what you are no matter how long I look. All I see, and someone will probably suck their knickers up & pitch a lame fit, is a Snub-Nosed Monkey in that red circle. Compare images of them to that cloud & tell me it looks human now.

Yes, that's why tracings are the next step. Thanks for trying! I don't have the update to see the National Geographic pics. Since it's a cloud snub-nosed monkeys are allowed and welcome, as the theme of Voting Rights Movement related faces all looking down at the marchers is one I came up with and seems to fit for me. Other themes would be interesting, such as sport superstars or "people who win wars" or something. Since it's an iconic 1960s movement photo of an iconic march, the faces relating to that event line up in that context for me. It had me at Bevel, and after the Goddess of Liberty I'm not that surprised anymore at who or what either appears to me or is found by others.

Can you see the image of the woman at Observer1's pic insert "C" which is looking to our right?

reply to post by Aleister


Well I feel even worse... probably should just forget the "rear-view suit guy!" But yeah, he's above the black guy in your avatar... think silhouette... a crude one! And small... all in the lower second half of the top dark stripe - from waist up anyway.

Sigh, the other ones are really remarkable, though. The MLK one in your avatar took a loooong time to see, even with details you provided, then wham... there he was.

You should've added that the white vertical cloud is "MLK's" nose, with those detailed eyes to either side, and seen from slightly to the side and straight up/down relative to the viewer.

reply to post by Baddogma


Oh, I see what you mean. Your guy's top back and shoulders, and his outstretched arm just up to the start of his cuff on his wrist, are the same formation as the top of the forehead and the hair of the "King" image as I see it. And almost lol, of course describing the white vertical cloud as the images' nose is perfect, but I was seeing it so photographically that I didn't even think of the nose as being a cloud. Now I am lol. A great description, and if I may I'll add it into the uncy article, thanks!

And the figure you mentioned to the left of Observer1's King image and little photo insert of King, I'm seeing Lyndon Johnson looking down at the same angle as your "RFK", a pretty good size too, and next in line to the right of your image of "RFK". Almost in-between RFK and JFK. lol again. I am so glad you are here, as without you and Observer1 and alienjuggalo and the rest who will come later I'd be hauled off to the monkey house ("But officers, no, no, just look, the Goddess of Liberty does have an 10 or 11 segmented perfect tiara! What? No, no thank you, I don't want a lolly. Just zoom in and look at...officer? Commitment? Into where? No, no, wait, don't you know I have commitment issues???"), a faith I will avoid thanks to you guys.

reply to post by Aleister


Well, I wouldn't discount commitment just yet... the slip-n-slide slippery slope from a rational world view to lunacy doesn't have many brakes.

As far as the "from the back suit guy" upon closer perusal I submit it might be a guy from the late 1700's with frilly cuffs and a pony tail, looking toward the marchers as seen from the rear with a partial profile. Just to add an hypnotic suggestion, think George Washington and his iconic nose... heh.

New Year's after effects help... and a fine new year to all.

Edit: Oh and the liberty gal with the straight flaming torch, well endowed chest, wavey 1940's style hair, doe-eyes and segmented tiara... the details in that one are ... detailed. Her cartoonish features take on a solid realism when one's vision blurs just right and I believe I'd recognize her on the street should I ever run into her ... and I might just stalk her and risk a torch in the... face.

Again, a lovely (or disturbing) view into one's own psyche.

Baddogma
reply to post by Aleister

 

As far as the "from the back suit guy" upon closer perusal I submit it might be a guy from the late 1700's with frilly cuffs and a pony tail, looking toward the marchers as seen from the rear with a partial profile. Just to add an hypnotic suggestion, think George Washington and his iconic nose... heh.

New Year's after effects help... and a fine new year to all.

Edit: Oh and the liberty gal with the straight flaming torch, well endowed chest, wavey 1940's style hair, doe-eyes and segmented tiara... the details in that one are ... detailed. Her cartoonish features take on a solid realism when one's vision blurs just right and I believe I'd recognize her on the street should I ever run into her ... and I might just stalk her and risk a torch in the... face.

Again, a lovely (or disturbing) view into one's own psyche.

edit on 1/1/2014 by Baddogma because: tiara talk

And a happy new year's to you too!

Your "from the back suit guy" is pretty good when zoomed-in on, I can almost make out several of his fingers. I just checked that, and yes, a ponytail is evident, as are his cuffs. I'm glad he's pointing down, so the clouds are staying with the theme of "OK, everyone, look down at the marchers". That one should be discussed and analyzed further, by historians, cloudies, and people in institutions of higher learning (or just in institutions) everywhere.

And what a wonderful description of the girl! I'd also recognize her (and likely follow her) on the street! We could all meet and buy her a cup of coffee, or whatever liberty goddesses drink.

The title of the thread alludes to the entire bundle of discoveries, the direction that they're all "looking", and the historical context of the iconic photo containing possible images related to the Voting Rights Movement, as being the best pareidolia in history. Yet there is also an argument to be made that the "Dr. King" head and surely the "Goddess of Liberty" may be by themselves some of the best cloud images around. Your Monet-textured "RFK" and the original Bevel image may fall into that category as well.

But the flamed-staff tiara wearing girl, aye, she has my head, and my heart, in the clouds!

More on the Lyndon Johnson image (Welcome LBJ - how many kids did you kill today?). As mentioned above, I see him in between RFK and JFK, looking down at the same angle as RFK. The leftmost portion of the top of his head can be found above the 10th person in line in the march, and his whole head is between the 10th and 15th person in line.

On Observer1's pic look at the insert of the real picture of Dr. King. A line from the top of that photo, shifted to the left, would be just about at the level of LBJ's eyebrows. A line from the bottom of that real photo insert, taken to the left, would be at about his mouth level. That gives some size perspective.

What was confusing me is the white cloud where some of his hair should be, because it makes it look like the "LBJ" image's hair is white and fluffy while LBJ's hair was short and slicked back. Now I think the white cloud is just a cloud (lol), the same as some of the white clouds block some of "Dr. King's" face in the upper right corner area. Although, in his last years, LBJ had longer and fluffier white hair.

Here's a picture of LBJ with his head tilted at the same angle as the image in the cloud (except in the cloud it's looking more to his right), and a way of wishing everyone a Merry Russian Christmas too!

Look at this, I actually was able to do a file on my computer.

So, ladies and gents, I present, dressed in blue, the cloud image Baddogma and I have been calling the Goddess of Liberty:




and duh, I didn't know that when you zoom in on a pic you can actually save it. My learning curve has taken a nice jump in the last hour. Here's a zoom at 250, and you may spot the tiara on her head:



Does anyone know if the tiara is a product of pixelating, or is it actually on the original pic itself? I'll have to get a copy of the 1965 magazine that it was in and compare.

Just did this one, tinted orange, of the image that Baddogma and I are calling Dr. King:



It also contains the image Baddogma found and describes in an above post of a ponytailed guy from the back, pointing at the line of marchers.

_________________

The Kennedy Brothers:

Baddogma's beautiful RFK find. I can't seem to figure out how to make it smaller, where they stand out more, so for these two images please zoom in to about 75 percent or so, or stand away from your monitor a few feet (thanks) BTW, I usually look at ATS at 150 percent, if that helps align the size of the pics as I see them...



JFK...



And once again the entire image in black and white so you can find these images without moving from your chair:

And here's one that I cropped which I call James Bevel, the "cloud image face" that started this whole thing:

Since I placed a link in my signature here to the "Goddess" pic a few posts above, this may be a good place for a summary of the thread.

The picture these images were found in is an iconic photo taken by James Karales of "Look" magazine of the 1965 march from Selma to Montgomery in Alabama, a march which crescendoed the Selma Voting Rights Movement which obtained the right to vote for all adult Americans.

In early 2009, looking at a copy of the right side of the picture, I saw an image which I "recognized" as that of James Bevel, who had died a few weeks previously. Bevel initiated and led the 1965 Selma Voting Rights Movement, and had initiated the march. The image I saw had its eyes closed, and was faced looking down along the line of marchers. See below for a link as to why I was looking at this exact copy of the photo, as well as links to the other data presented in this summary.

Years later I wrote an article on a satire site, although the content about the image and Bevel's history in the article are true. During the writing of that page I started to see other images, all looking down upon and along the line of marchers. These eventually included the Dr. King image (presented in orange in the post above), John Kennedy with his left hand held up in a "thumbs up" salute, images I called Abe Lincoln and Frederick Douglass, and a beautiful image I called the Goddess of Liberty. I saw Liberty carried a flaming rod and she's wearing an almost perfect tiara along her hairline. I "predicted" in the uncyclopedia article that Alice Paul, Lyndon Johnson, and others involved in the voting rights movement would "show up" in the pic, because it only seemed fair.

I then posted this thread on ATS, where eventually user alienjiggalo saw the "Bevel image" independently and posted a circled picture of it (I just learned a couple of days ago how to crop and highlight pictures and load them to my computer for transfer here, so no pics other than the opening pic were initially used in this thread. This has mostly been done through words).

At one point user Baddogma saw Dr. King, Liberty, and some other images. He took my description of where JFK was, looked for him, found an image of "JFK" with his thumb up, and it turned out to be a totally new and beautiful image, one which he and I are now calling Robert Kennedy! When Baddogma saw this image he noticed it was holding its left thumb up, so he just assumed it's what I meant.

Later, user Observer1, who'd seen another new face which may or may not be Lincoln (he thought it was an older Bevel, and posted a pic), posted a more detailed picture in which he found several new faces. One is clearly a woman, who I'm saying is Alice Paul just because she wouldn't miss this assemblage (and yes, I know this is just an image of clouds and is not mystic, and that if the picture had been taken just seconds before or after this that the cloud images would have shifted), a pic he called Frederick Douglass which is as good or better than the "Douglass" I found, and one of "Dr. King" (which takes time to see but if it pops in for you it's very good), all looking along the line of marchers.

Baddogma found an image of a man in a suit, with shirt cuff and a ponytail, with his back turned, pointing to the marchers with "his" extended left arm. He describes it as a 1700s style suit, and alludes to George Washington. Earlier user Stargatetravels found what he called Washington in another spot, but hasn't come back as yet to elaborate exactly where to find him.

At a minimum, the pics of Bevel, King, and the "Goddess of Liberty" seem of almost photogenic quality, and I don't know how they've been missed all these years. The Karales photo, used in "Look" magazine just after the 1965 march, is recognized as one of the iconic photos of the Civil Rights Movement, and has been used many times on book covers and elsewhere.

There is a hint of two areas where Lyndon Johnson may be, one in one of Observer1's circles in his large picture, and one in-between the Kennedy brothers. In Observer1's circled "King" there'ss also an image of Lincoln, in top hat, with his back turned, the only image mentioned here which isn't looking along the line of marchers.

The reason I'm calling this the best pareidolia in history: it has several very-clearly defined images, the labeling names which are at least in the ballpark, the fact that all the names used here were very involved in bringing about Voting Rights, that all of the "images" (except for the tiny Lincoln) look down and along the line of marchers, and the circumstances in which the first face, which I call "James Bevel", was found on the right half of the picture - the last thing James Bevel signed his name to before his death.

Thanks for reading. Links below to the comments in this post:

How the "James Bevel" image was first seen: www.abovetopsecret.com...

User Baddogma spots what he thought was JFK, as well as seeing some of the other images: www.abovetopsecret.com... . Baddogma has a post not far above this one (page five has turned out to be very good) in which he describes his guy from the 1700s: www.abovetopsecret.com... And in this post Baddogma relates how he has had previous experiences with what can be called "cloud magic": www.abovetopsecret.com...

User alienjuggalo found the "Bevel" face on his own on a side-thread I made and which was later directed here. I made it to focus on the Dr. King image, since at the start of this thread it was implied that this was a hoax. alienjuggalo had posted a close-up earlier, yet here is the post with his circled image: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Observer1's large picture: www.abovetopsecret.com... . He also had an earlier pic in which he found a new face, labeling it Bevel as well, which may actually "be" an image of an older Abe Lincoln if a description of Lincoln's eyes looking at someone in anger can be found: www.abovetopsecret.com...

User Adjensen saw and circled the large head on the right, which I had thought was maybe A. Lincoln (he also had Bevel's face in there) in this early post, calling the larger head Hellboy, which, in another context, is what some people thought of Lincoln : www.abovetopsecret.com...

User Stargatetravels sees what he describes as George Washington: www.abovetopsecret.com...

A "Guidebook" to the faces on the two uncyclopedia sites - satire but basically accurate. These also link to the original page "James Bevel's face in a cloud":
[uncyclopedia.wikia.com... Guidebook to the faces at Uncyclopedia wikia] [en.uncyclopedia.co... Guidebook to the faces at Uncyclopedia.co]

Just a fun look at some iconic clouds!