What will you say/do, if you are wrong about Jesus

I believe in Jesus as the Christ because he was without sin. His teachings taught many things regarding virtue and works based living, but what separates Christ from the all of the other great teachers is that he specifically stated himself to be the savior. To be the sacrifice by which all may enter perfection and unity with GOD. Christ's life and death breaks the cycle of karma for any who choose to accept Him and his sacrifice. Belief in Christ is not going to church and giving money to poor specifically, it is accepting that gift which Christ offered.

Christ may State that he is the Savior, but do tell me, has christ actually saved humanity as you see it?

If I were to Accept Christ, how exactly would I be saved?
And saved from what Sins?

See, my Gurus sacrificed themselves for thier people and humanity, they taught us to love all, no matter thier gender, race, caste. They taught that we are all equal in the eyes of god, and should be equal in the eyes of eachother. Never did the Gurus ever elevate themselves as the sons of God, never did they dare, thier Egos never flared higher than the servant that sat beside them. Thier lessons have never changed from one Guru to the other, Our Gurus died protecting us from islamic moghuls who sought to covert and rule with an iron fist over india. The opressed ran to our Gurus in hopes of a better life, and that they were given.
and "HISTORY" proves this,
Never through the history of Sikhism has our Scripture been changed, our word flawed, only by the influence of western philiosphy the last 60 years has Sikhism in the youth dicipated.


Christians seem to have this Bias that the world needs to be saved, and the only way to be saved is through the love of "Christ".
The only thing I see that needs to be saved, is from Christ.
Deep

Jesus was, yes alive, died and quiet honestly, with the same faith you have, I can say never rose from the "dead".

If, Jesus the Nazarene, and as the Romans affectionately called him, King of the Jews, did actually die on Friday, which is weekly holiest day of Judaism, no Jew in their right mind would have touched his body or handled it for that matter of their sabbath day... Jesus would have been taken down Saturday evening, after the sun went down. So if Jesus was removed from his crucifix on Friday by Jews, chances are, he was still alive, or barely hanging on... as to be punished by crucifixtion was more a less a suffocation from the heat, and the weight of your body getting pulled by gravity.
That aside, let's go on...

Jesus was very well-educated, in that time of world and the area in which he and his family lived, you would have to have known atleast three languages to get along, Aramaic and Hebrew amongst those people you lived with and Greek to help in market for trade and what-not. Having read the old testament (which for Jews, as he was, is called the Torah). During that time of Roman occupation, Jews were arguing and bickering amongst themselves in religion, what was religiously proper, what way should the Judaism lean towards,...
accept Roman and Greek practices or steer straight and keep on with Jewish traditions... There were those Jews who embraced the Hellenism and those that saw the Roman presence as damning to their culture.

Many "Christs" had come before Jesus and very many after Jesus... It's a simple way to bring a prophecy into fruitition... read your Torah, and be all that you can be and enter the city from the east gate.... Romans have a canny sense of humor, therefore rode Jesus through his donkey(mule) entering the east gate, just ask the Torah reads and make a mockery of another insurgent.

Had Jesus lived and made roads into the Temple regarding the changes and injustices he saw ...as did the views the Assines also shared... chances are, the temple would have been no doubtedly reorganized for
even the poor jews to make offerings and sacrifices.

But, Jesus dies ...or should I say, says, screws this, I'll be back... and floats off to heaven, never to been seen again

Paul and Peter, the main players in the development of the early "Christian" church both have differing views of how to carry on Jesus' views about man and his/her religious devotion to God... Paul kicks ass, setting up church after church, Peter suffers alittle, and ends up siding with the Romans, later becomes the first pope...
the topper of his religious resume ....

So from a condensed and imperfect breakdown of Jesus and what has manifested into the greatest business enterprise/corporation of all time, I'd say nothing 'cause there would be nothing to say and no one to see come back.

So question answered

Been there and done that. If you feel guilty, feel inadequate with what you are, feel your life sucks, then I guess Jesus is your answer and you stop and be happy there....

I was a Christian, Jesus lover, etc., the more I questioned the actual roots of Jesus, the more things look and become the wonderful politically charges living fairytale it is....

By the way, in the old testament, the savoir of from the male side of David... Jesus was from the female side of David, (Mary). So savior he ain't.

Originally posted by believerinchrist
If you wany to post to this question, please give an honest, deeply thought out response. Im very curious to as what one, who believes in other religions than Christianity, will do or say, in the end-judgement day-before our God-that most of us believe in, when God asks the question of one "I sent my son, did you not know him?" Or one of simalar fashion. Im not interested in the answers of "I dont believe etc....." Im just wondering why alot of people out there wont or dont take into consideration that Jesus is thier savior and the only way to the father and unto heaven is through Jesus Christ? Believe me, if you gave Jesus a chance, you would recieve something that you have only dreamed about in those other religions. Salvation, Forgiveness and Eternal Life. .................Believer

No offense to any Catholics out there, I have some Catholic cousins - but I've noticed through the years that Catholicism seems to turn many, many people into God haters. Anyone else notice that? I know two guys that I work with, for example, that will not have anything to do with religion - because of it. They sneer at it. I think that's intensley sad. God gets all the blame for man's idiocy.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
No offense to any Catholics out there, I have some Catholic cousins - but I've noticed through the years that Catholicism seems to turn many, many people into God haters. Anyone else notice that? I know two guys that I work with, for example, that will not have anything to do with religion - because of it. They sneer at it. I think that's intensley sad. God gets all the blame for man's idiocy.

I've actually noticed the same thing. A lot of people, if religion comes up, simply state "I was raised a catholic, so I'm an athiest." A possible reason for this is that the catholic church's doctrine focuses on the bad, and ignores the good. You need to do what a priest tells you to do, or God won't forgive you (I think it's up to God to decide what your repentance is, not some guy who says the same thing for that sin disregarding the individual.) You need to suffer to show you love God and Jesus. You (maybe this one is accurate, it's the impression I've gotten) need to pray to a saint, because you're not good enough to pray directly to Jesus.

These are just some possible reasons, I'm sure someone raised catholic could explain more. Me, I wasn't raised catholic, but I do believe in Christ

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
No offense to any Catholics out there, I have some Catholic cousins - but I've noticed through the years that Catholicism seems to turn many, many people into God haters. Anyone else notice that? I know two guys that I work with, for example, that will not have anything to do with religion - because of it. They sneer at it. I think that's intensley sad. God gets all the blame for man's idiocy.

I've actually noticed the same thing. A lot of people, if religion comes up, simply state "I was raised a catholic, so I'm an athiest." A possible reason for this is that the catholic church's doctrine focuses on the bad, and ignores the good. You need to do what a priest tells you to do, or God won't forgive you (I think it's up to God to decide what your repentance is, not some guy who says the same thing for that sin disregarding the individual.) You need to suffer to show you love God and Jesus. You (maybe this one is accurate, it's the impression I've gotten) need to pray to a saint, because you're not good enough to pray directly to Jesus.

These are just some possible reasons, I'm sure someone raised catholic could explain more. Me, I wasn't raised catholic, but I do believe in Christ

I agree with you gentlemen. The saddest thing I've seen come out of the Catholic Church is the restriction of taking communion ONLY to members of the congregation. WHAT?? You mean I'm invited to Easter dinner, but I'm supposed to stand in the corner and watch everyone eat the "BREAD of LIFE"? I've gotten angry about this in the past and I simply ignore what the Priest says.

I worship God. I worship Christ, not men and their "rules."
Can you imagine Christ telling anyone that they are NOT worthy to receive his blessings? It goes directly against what Christ came here to do: to unify us with the Father.
Not a hard sign to miss, so I encourage Catholics to dig a bit deeper into what they are drawn to and why.

On a positive note, I might add that we ALL walk a different path. There's no way around that. We all experience this world differently and the Catholic church may be what some people need. Tradition, structure, leadership. I just hope that it leads people to want to understand and know their Creator more. To want to see Christ in their life today... each day.
This is one of our challenges as Christians.

May you see Christ in yourself through giving of yourself to others.

+Jammer

P.s. To those of you who are not Christian's, I'm cool with that. May God reveil his plan for you.

To those of you who are athiests, a sincere "Good Luck" making it on your own

All crowned popes to this date have been antichrists. They have done nothing to change the drawn constellations, nothing in order to teach the good values of the Law, and has coronated one wicked king after the other, not to mention the new C�sars, the Keizers of the "Holy Roman Empire". He has prophecied for the Beast and has had his power from the Dragon, for the Dragon has been where the Father should have been all the time of their reign. As simple as that.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by jammerman
On a positive note, I might add that we ALL walk a different path. There's no way around that. We all experience this world differently and the Catholic church may be what some people need. Tradition, structure, leadership. I just hope that it leads people to want to understand and know their Creator more.

+Jammer

P.s. To those of you who are not Christian's, I'm cool with that. May God reveil his plan for you.

A positive note indeed.
One thing I would like to see is for people to insert the name of any other religion that applies into that statement in place of "the Catholic Church". The canyon between religions will always be a problem until people learn tolerance.
Allowing people to find their god and their jesus, not just one specific diety or savior.
I firmly believe that there will be no peace on earth until there is peace between religions.

Respectfully,

BG

Originally posted by jammerman
I agree with you gentlemen. The saddest thing I've seen come out of the Catholic Church is the restriction of taking communion ONLY to members of the congregation. WHAT?? You mean I'm invited to Easter dinner, but I'm supposed to stand in the corner and watch everyone eat the "BREAD of LIFE"? I've gotten angry about this in the past and I simply ignore what the Priest says.

That's not sad at all, IMO. It's a wake-up call, telling you that these people are not right in the head, and that you should stay the hell away from their evil, intolerant cult.

I don't know how many of you read Sapphire's post in BTS, but the below story is a very powerful fiction that should be read by anyone who is religious. It is very long, but well worth the read. The rest of her post is at,
www.belowtopsecret.com...
THE SERMON ~ for all you Religious people Enjoy. You'll never view church the same way after reading this.

Imagine yourself sitting in a Church pew one Sunday and the following happens. From what we have seen recently in America, this scene is not as far fetched as we might care to think.

The church service is already in session. The choir is singing one of your favorite hymns. Hearing the slight squeak the double doors behind you make, you turn to see who is coming in late. To your surprise, it�s the local police chief�his picture was on the front page of your local paper only yesterday.

Looking at the big stocky man clothed with a long trench coat you wonder, �What�s he doing here? He�s a Catholic and this is a Pentecostal Church.�

Your mind immediately races back to yesterday�s paper. The police chief made the front page, but unfortunately not because of a big arrest. It seems his son had been �born again� in a Pentecostal church recently. His son was told that one must be born again to escape the flames of Hell and go to heaven. He was told that his whole family would probably burn in Hell forever if they didn�t get saved before they died. The newspaper account said that the son went to his parents to try to get them saved. With tears in his eyes he begged them to accept Jesus or else burn in Hell forever.

The police chief thought that his son had been brainwashed by some fundamentalist cult. He was furious. They had a very loud verbal fight which went from the living room to the front yard. Many of the neighbors heard the fight. After going back and forth for quite some time, the police chief asked, �And according to what you�ve now been brainwashed to believe, where is your grandmother and grandfather? They were good Catholics all their lives. They didn�t have a clue about your �born-again� nonsense? Where are they!!??�

It was reported that the son, in uncontrollable sobs answered back, �I suppose they are in hell, but that doesn�t mean you and mom have to go there.�

At this point the police chief began to beat his son to a pulp. It took several men to restrain him. The chief had lost it, big time. One of the neighbors recalls the police chief saying that perhaps Janet Reno is right about these Bible-toting fundamentalist cults. �They are dangerous. Something ought to be done about them. They�ve destroyed my family,� were some of the kind of statements the neighbor recalled the police chief making.

And now he is in your Pentecostal Church. Why? Had God convicted him? Is he going to get saved this morning? Oh, praise God, that would be wonderful, you thought. His face looked extremely stern and fierce. �Gee, he must really be under conviction,� you thought. �It�s always darkest before the morn.� You couldn�t wait to see how your pastor was going to bring this man to Christ. You were about to experience a miracle and you couldn�t wait. Hallelujah!!

He opened his trench coat. Your heart nearly fell to the floor as he wielded up a huge machine gun. �What on earth is he going to do? Has he gone mad?�

He raised the gun, aimed it towards the choir and said, �You�ve divided and ruined my family. You�ve consigned my whole family and ancestors to eternal flames. The least I can do is return the favor.� A long burst of bullets followed leaving the entire white-robed choir strewn all over the podium drenched with fresh blood.

Everyone immediately scrambled to find refuge behind the pews. The gunman begins to walk up the middle of the church and sprays the aisles with bullets. You are in the second row of pews in the front. Your heart races faster with each burst of bullets knowing he is one pew closer to you.

All of a sudden one of your fellow Church members screams out, �Lord, Save us!!!� The gunner stopped shooting. Looking the screamer straight in the eyes the gunman said, �Do you believe you must be born again to go to heaven?� The person hesitantly responded, �yes.� The gunman answered her with a bullet between the eyes.

The police chief changes his course of action. He comes to one row and demands each person stand up. A burst of bullets over their heads moves them out from their haven under the pews.

Then he asks the first one, �Do you believe all are going to Hell who haven�t been born again?�

�No!!� was the reply of the young teenager who was the first in the row.

�Ok, sit down,� responded the gunman. He asks the same question to the next person, an elderly lady, �Do you believe you must be born again?� In a weak broken voice, the woman responds in a resigned and determine gentle voice, �Yes, young man, I believe in the Word of God and it plainly stated you must be born again to enter the kingdom of God.� The gunman replied with a burst of bullets. He continued this game with the rest of that row. Half lived, half died.

�Everyone, get off the floor and move to the front of the church. NOW!!! As you face the gunman with the rest of the survivors, you look out over your church seeing dead bodies sprawled all over the place. There are groans coming from various pews from the severely wounded. Probably close to 90 percent of the congregation had been shot.

As he looks at the row of people he has gathered in front of the altar, it appears that some reasoning ability is re-entering him.

�Ok, folks. It�s time to put the test to your faith in your �born again� god. Surely most of the world has never been born again let alone even heard of such a thing. And you all say you love and worship this born-again god who is going to fry most of the world including all my family and ancestors in a lake that will burn forever. Ok, if you can love and worship such a fiend who will torture human beings endlessly, then surely you can worship a man like me who isn�t a fraction as cruel as your god. I�ve only killed a few human beings. I�ve sent them off to your born-again God. I�ve put them out of their misery and made the community a better place by getting rid of people who spread such poisonous doctrines that destroy families. Your God, according to your teachings, is going to endlessly torture everyone who doesn�t confess Him as Lord and worship Him from their heart without hypocrisy. If you can love such a beast, then surely you can love and worship me. And if you can�t love and worship me who is not near as cruel as the god you say you believe in, love and worship, then I say you are all evil liars who aren�t worth take up space in this world. Now start showing me how much you love me�worship me! And you had better do it with your heart and not just pretend. If I detect the slightest pretence, I�ll blow you right up to your fiendish god. Now bow down and worship me�.from your heart!!!

Everyone is looking at each other wondering what to do. Your pastor breaks down into uncontrollable sobs. He bends onto one knee with his head bowed down. The gunman approaches him. �Look into my eyes!!� The pastor raises his head still sobbing uncontrollably. The odor of urine comes from his direction. He wet himself.

�Open your eyes, look at me and tell me you love and adore me!!!�

�I�m trying, I�m trying,� faintly squeaks through the pastor�s loud wails. The police chief raises his gun and sprays the pastor and his wife standing next to him from top to bottom.

Everyone remaining is in utter hysteria. �I said worship me or I�ll blow you all to your hell!!

He walks over to the beginning of the assembled row. It�s your mother!! Ma�am, I�m going to prove to you that I am far more worthy of worship than the fiend you folks pretend to worship in this place. I say pretend because I am convinced no human being with their brains in right could possible love the god you claim to love. You say all mankind is condemned to go to hell simply for being born into this rotten world. You say, if a person hasn�t been born again they�re going to Hell. You say the only way a person can be born again is to believe that Jesus died for their personal sins and to ask him to forgive them and to give their lives to Him. You say this must be done from the heart or else it won�t count. That means most of the world goes to hell by default. You say there are none worthy to go to heaven except through being born again through faith in Jesus Christ. I�m going to give YOU a better chance YOUR god supposedly gave to my parents. No one ever told them they had to be �born again.� So according to your theology, my parents are now screaming louder than those screaming from behind your pews. And they are going to scream like that forever without any hope of ever coming out of this place of torment which YOU say YOUR god made to torture all those who would not love and worship Jesus Christ. Billions never heard the name of Jesus and according to your teachings they�re now burning. I�m going to give you more chances than your god has ever given. I demand to be worshipped and loved by you or else I have no other choice but to kill you. Unlike your god, I am going to give you SEVERAL chances to sincerely worship me from your heart. Now worship me!! If you can worship a god who consigns people to be tortured forever simply for being born, then surely you should be able to love and worship me FAR more. Now worship me!�

Your mother, born and raised Pentecostal, stout and strong in the tradition she was raised in says, �I�d rather die than worship you, Mister.� Bang. A bullet pierces her left shoulder making it look like hamburger meat. You immediately go over to help.

�Back off lady! Salvation is a personal decision. This is between me and her. Move away!�

The pressure of the gun barrel against your forehead was enough to move you back. Besides, your young daughter was standing right beside you. What good would you be to her dead?

�Chance number one. Worship me!� Your mother�s mouth has a determined sealed look as if it had made up it�s mind to stay closed forever. Bang! A shot into the other shoulder. The shot knocked your mother off her feet. �One MORE chance, lady. Love and worship me from your heart or die!� Your mother was is such pain and agony she probably didn�t hear a word. A single shot in the heart pulled her last breath out of her.

The gunman turns his attention to a young girl in the row. It�s your daughter. An expression of compassion sweeps across his face.

�Your god kills and then endlessly tortures men, woman and children who do not bow their knees to him. You say everyone is worthy of hell and must be born again and then some of you turn around and say children, Catholic or otherwise, go to heaven because they are innocent, they haven�t reached the �age of accountability.� Hypocrites!! You can�t have it both ways. Either one MUST be born again or not. How can anyone believe you lying conniving snakes. You must have made that age of accountability business up just to make your devilish god sound a little more palatable. You�re all a bunch of lying snakes. I�m going to show the rest of you that I am much more worthy of your love and worship than your lying god. I�m going to spare this child whether she worships me or not.�

All of sudden, your mind is filled with a strange combination of rage and conviction. How dare this man say he is more merciful and loving than the God you have come to know as your personal savior! How dare he say that he is more loving than Jesus. Your mind races through the scriptures which you have combed through countless times. Where are those scriptures which speak of the age of accountability? Surely there must be at least two or three clear Scriptures for every doctrine. At least that is what you were taught. Your mind draws a complete blank. And what about all those who never heard of the name of Jesus, who didn�t confess Him as Lord from their heart? What about those who innocently sat in church pews just following what their preacher told them but never told them to be born again. My God!! Are they all now screaming like my wounded brothers and sisters screaming from behind the pews? And Jesus won�t give them a second chance? Oh, my!! Some of them never had a first chance!! Your mind is racing through the Bible looking for Scriptures which support those little nothings you used to throw out when people began to press you about those you never heard of the name of Jesus. �Oh, God knows them that are his,� or �My God judges after the heart,� or another favorite was, �God will judge you according to the knowledge you have been given.� Your mind races through Genesis to Revelation demanding two or three Scriptures to make your God appear more loving, just and humane than this man but nothing pops up to prop up the image of God you had been taught to believe in. All you can hear is the Scriptures which have been pounded into you week after week, year after year from Sunday School teachers, youth leaders, traveling evangelists, and your pastor. �You MUST be born again. Enter by the narrow gate for broad is the road that leads to destruction. And these shall go to everlasting punishment. And these are reserved to everlasting destruction. And all liars, fornicators, idolaters�shall have their part in the lake of fire.� An image of the lake of fire appears before you. You hear the screams of countless billions of men, women, and yes, infants and children mixed with the screams of your brothers and sisters dying in the pews. You can�t tell which screams are real and which are in your mind.

Your church taught that a person must speak in tongues as a sign of being truly born again. You see millions of Christians who never spoke in tongues burning forever without hope of ever being able to repent. All of a sudden you begin to wonder how many of your own church members who HAVE been born again are in that lake of fire. After all, how many times have you heard the Scripture preached in your church at revival time, �Lord, lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out devils, and do marvelous works in your name?� And Jesus told them, �Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity.� Gosh, these must have been born-again Pentecostals or Charismatics. How many of us are going to be screaming like those groaning in the pews right now? Will backbiting count? Slander? Unforgiveness? Not loving all of my neighbors? Sneaking a drink of alcohol every now and then.

You had talked to enough different Christians from different denominations to know that all of them had different ideas about what might be a sin big enough to go to hell over. If I deny Christ so that I can raise my daughter, will Jesus cast me away forever? �Whosoever shall deny me before men, them will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.� Matt. 10:33 The more Scriptures which have been drilled into you from childhood that come up the more unsure you find yourself concerning your eternal fate should you die that very moment.

The pastor never did spell out very clearly all the sins that could send one to Hell. We were just kind of left with our own imaginations as to what would send someone to Hell. It was always easier to see someone else�s sins worthy of hell than our own.

Your whole life flashes before you, thousands of unconfessed sins pass through your conscience and you become frozen with fear at the magnitude of the sins you back-filed in your subconscious mind. You look out into your church, see the horror of this terrible massacre and realize that it is nothing compared to what you have told people hell was going to be like. You look into the eyes of the police chief and you see that he may indeed be more merciful than the god you have said you believed in. You look at this mad-man who has just killed part of your family and many of your friends and you know that it is impossible for you to truly love and worship him with all of your heart. For the first time in your life you realize that deep down inside, way down in your guts, you really have a deep hatred for a God who would burn or torture endlessly someone for just being born, or not truly worship Him. All of a sudden you realize that anyone who forces people to love them is not really loving themselves. You come to the stark realization that the image of God you have been taught to believe in is indeed worse than this police chief. You could not truly bring yourself to love and worship a god who would burn anyone alive, even a single person. If you actually witnessed such an act, it would utterly repulse you. You see that if you cannot love or worship a human being who forces people to love them or be tortured that you could not possibly love a God who would do such a thing. You could NOT in your heart love a God who would consign your mother, or son, or daughter, or husband to eternal flames without hope, without mercy. Your heart would go out to that person and you would eventually find the God who created such a condition to be repulsive beyond measure. All of a sudden it occurs to you that if God knows the beginning from the end, then He knew that when He created mankind most of them were going to be endlessly tortured. How could he begin such a process with such a rotten end for most of His very own creation? How could he possibly be all-powerful, ever-present, just, wise, ever-merciful whose wrath will one day come to an end according to scripture and whose nature is a love beyond words and end up throwing almost every human being He created into an eternal inferno? How can this be possible? As you heard the screams of your brothers and sisters, your imagination flies over the lake of fire you had always been taught was the final destination of all unbelievers and Christians who did not walk through the �strait gate.� You see billions upon billions of human beings forever screaming in pain without any hope of deliverance. You see friends, neighbors, work associates, and yes, even family members agonizing, begging for help. And then you stand before Jesus and He says, �Love me and worship Me with all your heart, soul, mind and strength or else your lot will be in the lake of fire.�

�OK, lady, it�s your turn!� Your mind had wandered deep into the recesses of your heart. His words startled you back to reality. Or were you in reality for the first time in your life as you truly contemplated the reality of the Hell and the God you had been taught to believe in. You thought about your daughter, who had been spared her life. Your answer would determine whether you would be the one to raise her to maturity or not.

�Bow down and worship me and look me straight in the eyes.� He aimed his gun directly towards your heart. The Scripture �Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus is Lord to the Glory of God the Father� races across your mind. �To the Glory of God the Father. How could there be even a trace of glory in billions upon billions of human beings endlessly tortured in a manner that would make this madman�s act seem like child�s play? If I can�t worship and love the madman before me who can only make me suffer for a few moments before he kills me, how can I possible love and worship a God who might endlessly torture any of my children, or family, or friends? You realize for the first time in your life, that your love and worship of your god was just on the surface. When forced to really deeply look at what you had been taught to believe, you actually despised such a fiend more than the man giving you the choice of whether you were going to live or not. You realize for the first time in your life what a horrible monster the god you had been taught to believe in actually was. The cosmetics and false excuses for your god�s intolerance was stripped away. The man before you was only a small semblance of the monster you had told people you loved and worshipped. All of a sudden your hidden, backfiled, rage came to the surface. You actually find yourself utterly despising the God you had pretended to love out of fear. Your pretence was so good you actually fooled yourself. But now the veil was removed forever. For the first time in your life, you actually saw the image of God you have been taught to believe in for what he really was, the most cruel hideous monster the mind could possibly conceive of. The reality of what you saw in your mind was so overwhelming that you passed out under the shock hearing as you went under, �Ok, this is the last warning�love and worship me or die. I�ve given you far more chances than your god has given to most.� And then you pass out.

The scene I have painted above is fiction. But in a spiritual sense, it unveils the dark side of the so-called �good news� and image of God which we, Christians, have expected the world to swallow. We stand in amazement when we present our version of the �good news� to the world and find they don�t think it �good news� at all. They find it grotesque.. We have been so drugged and poisoned by false doctrines that we have become so numb that we cannot comprehend why the world doesn�t want to go to our churches

Sapphire, I hope you don't mind my reposting your story, I thought it made a strong point and was very insightful.

Originally posted by jezebel
I don't know how many of you read Sapphire's post in BTS, but the below story is a very powerful fiction that should be read by anyone who is religious. It is very long, but well worth the read. The rest of her post is at,
www.belowtopsecret.com...
THE SERMON ~ for all you Religious people Enjoy. You'll never view church the same way after reading this.


Sapphire, I hope you don't mind my reposting your story, I thought it made a strong point and was very insightful.

hi jezebel, no it's nice to see others have read this. A man by the name of Gary Amirault wrote it, so after reading it a year or two ago i'd remembered it and wanted to share it here with you guys. His website has a wealth of Information on it i think you'll enjoy it.
Tentmaker

The more I hear about jesus christ the more it makes me
want to puke.
It makes me want to become a satanist instead.

As for turning the other cheek get your enemy to do it.
Or force him to . That would be more satisfying.

Originally posted by yogibear
The more I hear about jesus christ the more it makes me
want to puke.
It makes me want to become a satanist instead.

As for turning the other cheek get your enemy to do it.
Or force him to . That would be more satisfying.

Why is that? Just curious.

Peace,

+Jammer

There are parts of the bible that I question the veracity of...

Many seem to misunderstand Christ, I see him as a teacher that taught truths about the spirit of men and what the purpose of spirit was.

Christ also spoke about those that desired to serve themselves above all others and suggested that they also would have an enduring soul but not in a good place.

I think that Christ taught people how to save their souls but did not save anyone, he cannot do that, only you can. That is the one lie of the church used to deceive you and control you.

But be forewarned, if you reject service to self and reject the path to spiritual light then you have a fate. It is like the old saying 'Pay me now or pay me later?'

Originally posted by THENEO
There are parts of the bible that I question the veracity of...

Many seem to misunderstand Christ, I see him as a teacher that taught truths about the spirit of men and what the purpose of spirit was.

Christ also spoke about those that desired to serve themselves above all others and suggested that they also would have an enduring soul but not in a good place.

I think that Christ taught people how to save their souls but did not save anyone, he cannot do that, only you can. That is the one lie of the church used to deceive you and control you.

But be forewarned, if you reject service to self and reject the path to spiritual light then you have a fate. It is like the old saying 'Pay me now or pay me later?'

I partially agree with you on this. Yes Christ DID teach us how to save ourselves by our belief in Him. But to BELIEVE is to ACT. It is an 'active' verb. Saying your believe in Christ is not believing. It is only an affirmation to help us ACT in accordance with what he taught. To give to the WHOLE through service to others. Serving the self is the path of darkness and leads to emptiness. Imagine if you will how boring and sad it'd be to wake up and find ALL other intelligent beings removed from you. No relationships at all with anyone, not even God. True dispair. Total separation.
Hell is a term (not a place) that signifies separation from God.

As for Christ saving anyone, I have to disagree. Christ's sacrifice on the cross at Calvary was the point at which he accepted the sin of the world. All of the karma created in an imperfect world he absorbed so that those who wish to rejoin the Father could do so. We cannot attain perfection without first becoming perfect and you cannot be perfect if you have sin in you. The point I will agree on is that each of us has a choice whether to accept that gift or not. I personally have and there is a difference in my life both internal and external. The feeling is likely different for everyone except that when you know, you know.

That's all for now. May you all find peace and reconciliation with the Creator.

+Jammer

Originally posted by jammerman

Originally posted by THENEO
There are parts of the bible that I question the veracity of...

Many seem to misunderstand Christ, I see him as a teacher that taught truths about the spirit of men and what the purpose of spirit was.

Christ also spoke about those that desired to serve themselves above all others and suggested that they also would have an enduring soul but not in a good place.

I think that Christ taught people how to save their souls but did not save anyone, he cannot do that, only you can. That is the one lie of the church used to deceive you and control you.

But be forewarned, if you reject service to self and reject the path to spiritual light then you have a fate. It is like the old saying 'Pay me now or pay me later?'

I partially agree with you on this. Yes Christ DID teach us how to save ourselves by our belief in Him. But to BELIEVE is to ACT. It is an 'active' verb. Saying your believe in Christ is not believing. It is only an affirmation to help us ACT in accordance with what he taught. To give to the WHOLE through service to others. Serving the self is the path of darkness and leads to emptiness. Imagine if you will how boring and sad it'd be to wake up and find ALL other intelligent beings removed from you. No relationships at all with anyone, not even God. True dispair. Total separation.
Hell is a term (not a place) that signifies separation from God.

As for Christ saving anyone, I have to disagree. Christ's sacrifice on the cross at Calvary was the point at which he accepted the sin of the world. All of the karma created in an imperfect world he absorbed so that those who wish to rejoin the Father could do so. We cannot attain perfection without first becoming perfect and you cannot be perfect if you have sin in you. The point I will agree on is that each of us has a choice whether to accept that gift or not. I personally have and there is a difference in my life both internal and external. The feeling is likely different for everyone except that when you know, you know.

That's all for now. May you all find peace and reconciliation with the Creator.

+Jammer

All agreed. Love thy neighbour.

Everyone who does not beleive in God.

Tell me do you honestly beleive that all the magnificent universe came from the BIG BANG. That everything we know came from a ball the size of a basketball floating in nothingness.

Where did the basketball come from? What is the Nothingness?

The universe just is and always has been right?

Keep going back into the past and tell me where that basketball that created the big bang came from. Something had to put it there. I beleive that the God spoke of in the Bible put it there but everyone here should agree that some supreme being started it all.

Originally posted by HijackeMedia
Jesus was, yes alive, died and quiet honestly, with the same faith you have, I can say never rose from the "dead".

Who is this Jesus guy everyone is speeking of? His name was never Jesus. That name is blasphemy. His name was Jesjuah (allthough I call him Jezjuah), and it's the same name that was borne by Josva, Hosea, Isaiah and many other prominent prophets and Jewish leaders. Jezjuah and the other names I mentioned is a variant of Jehosjuah, which means YHWH is Salvation. The real funny part about it, is that the word for salvation in Hebrew used in this name, is 'Jezjuvah or Jesjuvah. Nearly identical to Jezjuah. Jehosjuah can be read God is Jezjuah. Plain and simple.

If, Jesus the Nazarene, and as the Romans affectionately called him, King of the Jews, did actually die on Friday, which is weekly holiest day of Judaism, no Jew in their right mind would have touched his body or handled it for that matter of their sabbath day...

Perhaps Jesus died on a Friday, but Jezjuah died on Wednesday, Erev Pesach year 30 AD or 3791 AA.

Jesus would have been taken down Saturday evening, after the sun went down. So if Jesus was removed from his crucifix on Friday by Jews, chances are, he was still alive, or barely hanging on... as to be punished by crucifixtion was more a less a suffocation from the heat, and the weight of your body getting pulled by gravity.
That aside, let's go on...

You handle the torture of Jezjuah in such a manner that it makes me sick. Jezjuah was severly beaten, and the fact that when they pierced him in the side blood and water poored out, indicates that he infact suffered from a punctured longue, which must have been the result of the continuous beating prior to the crucifiction itself. If you think you can survive hanging by your wrists with a punctured longue and extreme bloodloss for six hours, be my guest. I don't believe it is possible. It was a miracle that brought him back to life. Period.

Jesus was very well-educated, in that time of world and the area in which he and his family lived, you would have to have known atleast three languages to get along, Aramaic and Hebrew amongst those people you lived with and Greek to help in market for trade and what-not. Having read the old testament (which for Jews, as he was, is called the Torah).

Wrong again. The Torah is the part of the Tannakh containing the Law of Mosche known to most people as Moses. The Torah is the first five books of Law in the OT. The Old Testament is called the Tannakh and is divided in three: the Law, the Scriptures and the Prophets. But indeed he was an educated man. He was possibly never a carpenter, but a teacher who was the son of a teacher. The word for carpenter and teacher is the same. Naggar. But he did have a house, meaning he was lawfully married, or atleast engaged which in the time of Jezjuah meant the same as being married, the only thing remaining in order to become fully married, was the building a house part and the sex part. The word for house can also mean descendants, people or children.

During that time of Roman occupation, Jews were arguing and bickering amongst themselves in religion, what was religiously proper, what way should the Judaism lean towards,...
accept Roman and Greek practices or steer straight and keep on with Jewish traditions... There were those Jews who embraced the Hellenism and those that saw the Roman presence as damning to their culture.

Many "Christs" had come before Jesus and very many after Jesus... It's a simple way to bring a prophecy into fruitition... read your Torah, and be all that you can be and enter the city from the east gate.... Romans have a canny sense of humor, therefore rode Jesus through his donkey(mule) entering the east gate, just ask the Torah reads and make a mockery of another insurgent.

You are rediculing God's Spirit here. Unforgiven fool. Repent! The Torah was written based on the future life of Jezjuah. The reason he lived without sin was that the Law was tailored after his sense of rightiousness. After his life. The only things I can see Jezjuah "sinned" by or atleast rebelled against was the Babylonian Talmud. But to write down the oral Torah is and has always been a sin in itself, so the sin wasn't Jezjuah's.

Had Jesus lived and made roads into the Temple regarding the changes and injustices he saw ...as did the views the Assines also shared... chances are, the temple would have been no doubtedly reorganized for
even the poor jews to make offerings and sacrifices.

But, Jesus dies ...or should I say, says, screws this, I'll be back... and floats off to heaven, never to been seen again

By you perhaps. Some of us meet him on a regular basis. He walks among us and has always done so. He carries my sin so I can live.

Paul and Peter, the main players in the development of the early "Christian" church both have differing views of how to carry on Jesus' views about man and his/her religious devotion to God... Paul kicks ass, setting up church after church, Peter suffers alittle, and ends up siding with the Romans, later becomes the first pope...
the topper of his religious resume ....

Lie lie lie. Peter never sided with the Romans, he died by their unclean hands, and he was never pope. Paul however, I believe is the first cointelpro agent of the modern age, but I also believe that Jezjuah lead him and instructed him. I believe he was a Pharicee and a spook until his death. A sorry character placed between the wood and the bark. But that's another story. I think he will be saved, but it's all up to God.

So from a condensed and imperfect breakdown of Jesus and what has manifested into the greatest business enterprise/corporation of all time, I'd say nothing 'cause there would be nothing to say and no one to see come back.

Then you will be either blind and doumb that day or a simple liar.

So question answered

Been there and done that. If you feel guilty, feel inadequate with what you are, feel your life sucks, then I guess Jesus is your answer and you stop and be happy there....

I was a Christian, Jesus lover, etc., the more I questioned the actual roots of Jesus, the more things look and become the wonderful politically charges living fairytale it is....

By the way, in the old testament, the savoir of from the male side of David... Jesus was from the female side of David, (Mary). So savior he ain't.

Depends how you see it. He was a shoot from the root of David. If David is a tree, he has two roots or two legs: One male and one female. Whether he was of the female branch or the male branch is irrellevant. But both Josephs who were married to Mother Mary, were legally his fathers, and both of them were sons of David and rightious men. Period.

Blessings,
Mikromarius

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by EastCoastKid
No offense to any Catholics out there, I have some Catholic cousins - but I've noticed through the years that Catholicism seems to turn many, many people into God haters. Anyone else notice that? I know two guys that I work with, for example, that will not have anything to do with religion - because of it. They sneer at it. I think that's intensley sad. God gets all the blame for man's idiocy.

I've actually noticed the same thing. A lot of people, if religion comes up, simply state "I was raised a catholic, so I'm an athiest." A possible reason for this is that the catholic church's doctrine focuses on the bad, and ignores the good. You need to do what a priest tells you to do, or God won't forgive you (I think it's up to God to decide what your repentance is, not some guy who says the same thing for that sin disregarding the individual.) You need to suffer to show you love God and Jesus. You (maybe this one is accurate, it's the impression I've gotten) need to pray to a saint, because you're not good enough to pray directly to Jesus.

These are just some possible reasons, I'm sure someone raised catholic could explain more. Me, I wasn't raised catholic, but I do believe in Christ

The biggest problem I have with Catholocism is that priests have put themselves between the believer and God and do not stress the individual's responsibility to read and know the scriptures for himself. Also, they put Mary in the position of Jesus. That is so wrong - according to scripture! The Apostle Paul actually says, "Do not pray to an endless chain of saints." If this doesn't speak directly to the Catholic church, nothing does.

People DO NOT have to go and confess their sins to ANY priest, according to the word of God. That is what JESUS was sent here for - to be our mediator and advocate. False teachings only work to destroy faith. Everyone interested in a relationship with God should read the scriptures for themselves. When Christ was resurrected God sent the Holy Spirit to take his place, making it possible for each and every believer to tap into the mind of Christ and to be in God's presence.

I think it must greive the Lord deeply and anger him terribly that so many souls have been lost because of the stupidity and evil of man.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter
If god and jesus really does exist, and that supposed fateful day ever comes of my judgement, I would ask one question, and follow with a statement...

"Why did you ever make yourself known to humans?

If the bible is true, I believe you to be a vengeful, hateful, sadistic being with no true love for anything but death. I am glad I did not worship nor believe in you, for I could think of no fate worse then loving a thing as grotesque as you are..."

There was a lot more sense in that statement than people will give you credit for.

Originally posted by Thorfinn Skullsplitter

See, this is what I hate about discussions such as these. Christians believe themselves to be correct no matter who says what or how much proof is offered to the contrary. Can't even speculate about any other possibility.

i am i christian and i believe that there is a possiblility of being wrong