Omniscience - A little thought experiment.

Lets say God, in all His omniscience, knows of a genuinely good, kindhearted man who is to be born a few years from now. God also knows that this good man would father just one son, who would grow up to be the most evil person you can imagine. _________________________________________Now, God can either.... A) Make the son die as a child, causing lifelong grief for the good man...... B) Allow the evil son to grow up and ruin the lives of many other innocent people. ...... C) Not let the good man be born in the first place, so as to prevent his evil son from existing. ________________________________________which do you think is the best solution? And why? If you choose A) isn't it unfair for the son who was innocent as a child when he died? Why should the good man go through the pain of losing his son? If its B) is it fair that other people deserved to suffer by the evil son? If its C) does it mean you would remove good just to prevent an evil?

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Your answer is Hitler. And a plethora of other assholes.

Why were they allowed to exist? Why does the wind blow?

Gentle breezes are nice. So are storms. Sometimes the wind doesn't blow at all, thats a desert. Sometimes it blows too hard and destroys everything.

If you want gentle breezes and rain, then you have to put up with the occasional tornado or hurricane.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I choose D. Change the way the son grows up, so that he never becomes evil.

God is also omnipotent.

Well it's clear the good man is allowed the other not so much by nature which is gods true divider.

If we see to nature than gods ways are clear,....the truly weak never survive.....and the story continues, but is the message clear?

But what of compassion? It has it's place ....

I think people make the mistake all the time of thinking of God and His choices based on human understanding. Such a problem, while it may sound like one thing to us, would be completely different to someone who is omnipotent and has the other characteristics that would be attributed to a Creator. We also make the mistake of thinking that this is it, here on earth, and that everything revolves around us. We think some evil here on earth is atrocious. We fear death and think of it as a bad thing. This is a very limited understanding of how things operate.

In the question you put forth, imo you are making the mistake of thinking that the problem is some big deal. It really isn't. Maybe it seems that way because we are humans here on earth. But this is not even a fraction of what exists, the non-physical realm, and I am positive of that. People say "God would do this and this if He were real." How does anyone really know what God would or wouldn't do? Like I said, a God would have a perspective that we could not even begin to imagine.

We don't have the understanding. Our logic is based on our conscious experiences, but that logic, although it seems concrete to us, is nothing of the kind once a person has moved on and enters the spiritual realm, or whatever you want to call it. And such a realm is related to the problem at hand, considering God would be more closely related to this realm than to ours, or at least I would think.

@ Klassified......''I choose D. Change the way the son grows up'' _________________________________________ I had thought of something on those lines, but I didn't include that option. If God wanted to modify and tweak people this way, what happens to free will? Yes, God can transform people who turn to Him, but thats a different subject.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


The threshing floor and sorting of bits..

Chaos and beginning.....and an end to an age. The beginning of a dawn beyond sight.

@JiggyPotamus....... i agree that its a matter of perspective and ours isn't vast enough to comprehend the way God would operate. But still, I had posed the question asking what the best solution would be. I got the idea for this thread while typing out a reply on another thread involving Gods omniscience.

sk0rpi0n
@ Klassified......''I choose D. Change the way the son grows up'' _________________________________________ I had thought of something on those lines, but I didn't include that option. If God wanted to modify and tweak people this way, what happens to free will? Yes, God can transform people who turn to Him, but thats a different subject.

I understand what you're saying. It was a little humor, actually. Still, there have been times "God" has usurped the will of certain humans. Pharaoh comes to mind...Exodus 9:16

"But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

Paul also comes to mind...Acts 9:3-4

3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

Among others, of course.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

sk0rpi0n
@ Klassified......''I choose D. Change the way the son grows up'' _________________________________________ I had thought of something on those lines, but I didn't include that option. If God wanted to modify and tweak people this way, what happens to free will? Yes, God can transform people who turn to Him, but thats a different subject.

What about free-will in the choices you presented?

A) Make the son die as a child...

C) Not let the good man be born in the first place...

The only option you gave which allows for free-will is B:

B) Allow the evil...

And if free-will truly exists. Even if God KNOWS that he will become evil, he also KNOWS how to 'influence' the son into acting good.

influence is not the same thing as forcing.

God can know that the son will grow up evil but still send people in his life to influence to the good so that the percentage of him being good is higher but it can still be his choice.

The answer was laid out long ago.

"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Rom. 9:20-23).

@ Klassified ........."God" has usurped the will of certain humans. Pharaoh comes to mind'' _________________________________________ The pharoah is also depicted as being persistently rebellious. He had pretty much dug his own grave, God only placed him there. Either way, if you must refer to scripture, the Koranic account is that Moses did appeal to the Pharoah to change his ways and accept God. Pharoah was finally doomed after he rejected. _________________________________________ Either way, God established way back in Genesis that good and evil are personal choices...when he hinted Cain to overcome evil. But I didn't exactly have the Bible in mind when I made this thread.

Klassified
reply to post by sk0rpi0n

 

I choose D. Change the way the son grows up, so that he never becomes evil.

God is also omnipotent.

The story most go on. Sometime evil need to be to force growth/evolution and what is going on with humanity is that it has not learned the lessons it should and refuse to grow/evolve to the next stage.

But then earth was before a mid level environment and the purpose was not to make this totally harmonic since this is the proving ground.

Since god knows exactly what soul to add to get the result, it was meant to be a mess on the large scale of thinking. It is the constant pushing in immature souls that creates this mess. If god just sent only the blessed ones it would be fixed within a generation. In a way as humans are greedy for money, god is greedy for evolving souls to get them to heaven. I can understand the reason but sometimes it sucks.

I have all the confidence that the plan will work out. It is just a pain to implement. . But who said it was meant to be easy.

If we see to nature than gods ways are clear,....the truly weak never survive.....and the story continues, but is the message clear?

Who is the really weak one. The one who has control of their temper and can die without harming others for their ideals or the animal who lashes out? Controlling the self inside when walking thru a world where the other ones are constantly attacking you is hard. Especially when they behave like rabid predators. Turning the other cheek is hard.

@arpgme........ ''What about free-will in the choices you presented?'' _________________________________________ Everybodys lives are ultimately in Gods hands. A) has God intervening early to end a life. C) has God not letting a life come into being in the first place. I avoided options where God modifies behavior. The question involves someone who God knows would turn out to be evil. _________________________________________ as for ''influence'', the evil son had a good father. Thats a huge influence to have, don't you think?

A few observations of god I think are correct.

1. Every soul that is born on earth need to prove itself to get the rebirth during it's life. Even if it was put there by purpose. Even Jesus did it in the desert according to the bible and Jesus was sent. God can not show favoritism even for a blessed one. What the rebirth means on the other side I have no comment on.

2. Synchronicity is used by god. There is a reason people feel like they can go safely thru hell with a smile on their face when god is preparing the way.

3. Self control and wish for symbiosis is the key to having an personal relationship where god has responded and faith in god is lost since you know god exists and have proof for yourself.

4. When the student is ready gods comes or send a messenger.

Omniscient is not synonymous with all-powerful although God is.

Just because God knows what will be doesn't mean He will step in to stop things. God is more like a parent who lets their child fall on his or her way to learning to walk then He is an overprotective helicopter parent.

Besides, how many acts of good will be done because that one child does unspeakable evil to others? How many people, when faced with those evil acts, will discover things about themselves that they would never have known before? How many will become heroes who might not otherwise have discovered their bravery? How many would realize that they would risk everything to save the few in the face of certain death themselves? How many would find the courage to stand up to the tyrant, inspiring others to fight who might not otherwise have done so?

It is through suffering and adversity that humans build character.

Nothing in the world happens in a vacuum. Ripples in the pond. Only God knows what might have happened or not had Hitler never been. But, I will say that Hitler's father was most certainly not a good man.

You say the son will be the most evil person imaginable. How is that exactly? Are not all sins essentially equal in the eyes of God? If you order a nuke dropped and kill 1 million people and I hit my mother who is worse?

Also think of this like the butterfly effect. You will rank the "most evil man" according to your knowledge of the harm he has done but what if from that harm incalculable good transpires in the hearts of those who suffer? This is why we can not adequately imagine true omniscience. Our perspective is limited by our bodies.

Your problem has flaws and errors.

Growth, progress, and adaptation seem to be an inherent necessity within this system for the sake of survival based upon my limited 21st century observance capabilities. Given that much, Good and Evil are merely two concepts that the dullards of the world use to place events, morals, and ideas within a basic and uninspired understanding of the cosmos. How could "the good" exist without knowledge of the Evil. Using Hitler as an example: How would the unification of the world and the end of cyclical European conflict have come about without him? How would Unification of economic systems and global trade have advanced without the US's efforts after the WWII in rebuilding Europe? How would international norms of War come about? How would the differentiation of treatment between Enemy Combatants, Enemy NonCombatants, and Civilians come about in the modern sense without such a "great evil".

We adapt based upon the elements we are given. We progress based upon the casual flow. We become greater through fire, ice, shelling, and blood. This is how we learn to not only adapt to our environment and inherent condition, but also how we adapt with our progression in the system and temper our Intelligence with logical Rules and Regulations of safety, peace, and general cooperation.

This is a poor attempt at questioning Omniscience, as you're attempting to black and white the situation in good or bad. The answer is, God allows the flow to happen because if omniscience is a thing then all paths are already known and all paths will generally happen because all paths must be known. Every multiple trillions of choices you make in life have to be mapped out, experienced, and visualized (and their resulted and those results ad infinitude) for God to have its Omniscience.

You're asking the wrong questions here. Omniscience can exist, but the question is: What does Omniscience imply?

Answer: A lack of free will and the impossibility of separation. (You're an all knowing God playing hide and go seek with itself in a hazy house of mirrors)

That's enough from me
/crazy idiot rant

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


B
can you have good men if there are no evil men.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

If God wanted to modify and tweak people this way, what happens to free will?

When omniscience and omnipotence are both involved, free will goes out the win dow. Can't be both ways.