UK authorities forcibly removed baby from Italian’s womb

reply to post by Pimpintology


Sorry but you are nuts. It is very wrong. They had no evidence she was suicidal. Alsoo even if she was they could have kep her and evaluated her and if they determined she was a danger to herself and child they could have kept her until she gave birth naturally. It seems they knew they couldn't/shouldn't and acted quickly. This is insanely wrong and I'm shocked that anyone could agree with it.

GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by Pimpintology

 

Sorry but you are nuts. It is very wrong. They had no evidence she was suicidal. Alsoo even if she was they could have kep her and evaluated her and if they determined she was a danger to herself and child they could have kept her until she gave birth naturally. It seems they knew they couldn't/shouldn't and acted quickly. This is insanely wrong and I'm shocked that anyone could agree with it.

This is touching on what I said in my last post, we've tried to stem a problem that hadn't actually occurred yet and no doubt from years of research we've become very good at it. Remove the choice from the person and do as we please with them.

Bassago
reply to post by generik

 

The authorities said the woman had had a mental breakdown and it acted in the best interests of the child

I guess the answer to your question depends on the nature of the "breakdown." If she was acting psychotic and homicidal then the safety of the child was in question and the actions justified.

Since the article doesn't elaborate it makes it impossible to say. Is there any additional information on this?

We should all know by now that the media only tell HALF the story to ensure the juicy stuff makes the headlines but the details that would destroy the article attention are left out completely. I am pretty sure there was a safety reason behind this surgery.

This makes me ashamed to be human. There can be NO excuse for this. I've been hearing a whole lot about UK social services along with secret courts taking children from their families for the most ridiculous of reasons. Couple that with reports of pedo rings and laws that prevent children from reporting abuse, including sexual, and you have a VERY dark and disturbing system at play here.
I strongly suspect that social services thought that the women was an easy target for them and that kidnapping her child was a nice little earner. DISGUSTING ! These sick and twisted 'people' need to be stopped.

Just to make life interesting, we now have some more details.

First, some links.
This story gives a bit more background:
www.bbc.co.uk...

This is a link to the most recent court hearing where the mother sought custody. It has some very interesting background information:
www.bailii.org...

The following is a summary of some key points from the case linked above.

The mother has a history of psychiatric problems, including multiple (some forced) admissions into psychiatric hospitals in Italy due to bipolar affective disorder. It also seems to be suggested that she problems while living in the US at some point. Her two older children have been placed under the care of her grandmother with restricted contact due to her psychiatric problems, with the Italian authorities coming to the same conclusion in those cases as the UK authorities came to in this one - while they accepted that the mother loved and wanted the children, her condition prevented her from being able to care for them.

13/June/2012 - Detained under s 2 MHA
11/July/2012 (Approx) - Detained under s 3 MHA
23/Aug/2012 - Court of Protection gives consent for c-section
Shortly after, child born and taken into care under an interim care order.

What is interesting is the court's concern over how the mother was handled at a hearing in October 2012. The judge felt that, despite being told she now had capacity, she was clearly still unwell and the hospital was trying to get her out of the country quickly rather than help her participate in the hearing.

The reason why the court will not hand the child back to the family is due to the test it needs to apply, including considering whether the birth family can provide a stable environment. In this case, the mother has longstanding and ongoing mental health issues and the father is an illegal immigrant, presumably (though not explicitly stated) as risk of potential deportation from Italy as he has no legal status there - that was why he was unable to attend the court hearings, in fact, so social workers were sent to Italy to meet with him.

It would be very interesting to read the Court of Protection transcript but they are often not published as a matter of routine. Some are available from the CoP database on the BAILII website, but none appear to relate to this case.

If anyone is interested in the kind of process that a judge will go through in a consent case, here is a link to a consent case in the Court of Protection that addresses the matter of a woman with a psychiatric condition that refused consent to a "potentially life-saving operation". It's a long read but it highlights how the decision-making process works. I would encourage people following this thread for the purposes of learning to read it. I know that no one will, but such is ATS, we don't like to deny ignorance as much as we proclaim

You have to be absolutist on this one otherwise it is a slippery slope.

Drugging women and cutting children out of their stomachs is unacceptable, no matter what.

There is not a chance that the UK would have had the full social and medical history of an italian woman who was here on a holiday to make any sort of informed decision.

I also read how despite members of her family (e.g. a step aunt, respectable profession / career/ etc) willing to take the child, the UK is still refusing to give up this child. It is absolutely outrageous.

Clearly the campaign to fight stigma attached to mental illness has not yet reached social services departments in Essex.

reply to post by generik

If this is true, be aware. We are not as far away from this type of power abuse as you might think. I truly hope we will shed some of our current apathy and reengage as a country. we stand by and are content to let a minority vote to decide the leaders of this nation, until we care enough to have more than 85% of voters show up at the poles we will continue towards this type of government abuse!

Loopdaloop
...
There is not a chance that the UK would have had the full social and medical history of an italian woman who was here on a holiday to make any sort of informed decision.

I also read how despite members of her family (e.g. a step aunt, respectable profession / career/ etc) willing to take the child, the UK is still refusing to give up this child. It is absolutely outrageous.
...

I don't recall the step-aunt being discussed by the judge, and he had access to reports from Italian Social Services as well as two members of the UK Social Services who were sent to Italy to interview the family as part of the assessment. He also had quite a comprehensive history of her condition courtesy of the Italians.

Unless you mean the Court of Protection? It would be very interesting to read that judgment if it was available, I agree, but the decision he was making was more specific in nature and did not necessarily need to take in her whole life history.

reply to post by EvillerBob


Nice work - I read it and it seems the case isn't simply the "evil Government" abusing power, but in fact them doing what they are supposed to do. It certainly seems that the Social Services cannot be certain of the well being of the child even with the extended family.

I also suspect that the woman came to the UK to avoid the Italian authorities who have already taken two of her children away - I have heard of mothers doing this in similiar situations.

The only thing that sits uncomfortably with me about this is the child being put up for adoption - this is a one way process, once done it cannot be reversed so I hope all avenues have been (or are going to be) pursued first.

When I first heard about this I was outraged. When I then realized it was the UK that did it - I was left speechless.

This country has some serious issues that need addressing.