"Faith" - The Christian's Clever Escape Move, page 3

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:36 AM

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Loki if its based on fact, its not faith. Faith by definition is blind faith.
I know this because god has promised this to me through jesus.
He died to give me and you everlasting life.
All you have to do to learn this is to open your heart and ask him to show you, if you ask honestly he will.

Loki

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:37 AM

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Yes we do have free will, and I enjoy it mightily.

I was asking about how you knew for a 'fact' that God saved the souls of all those murdered people.

It seems like the least he could do after letting them be burned alive, yes?

But what's for sure about it?

Read up on David Hume's theories on the Subject.

saint4God

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:37 AM

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Originally posted by Loki
Why didn't God save the lives of Holocaust victims, man?
He didn't feel like it.

Why didn't God save those people on 9/11, man?
He didn't feel like it.

Why didn't God save Abel from Cain, man?
You know, man, you're so irritating. Can't you just have faith in something?

...to which I respond that I must see a solid case for the existence of something for me to have faith in it. I am not supported by clouds, dreams, or empty thoughts, therefore I should not cling to them.

Thoughts?

-Loki

Thanks Loki for asking questions instead of making statements. I think a lot of people could learn from your example. I don't think it's a "He didn't feel like it" thing, it's something we don't understand because we are not God but are guarenteed to get the answer. Why is everyone so bent on death as being the ultimate evil? Murder is evil yes, because you have no right to end their life. Death is a speed-bump in the timeline of eternity. Oh yeah, many peeps here don't believe in eternity. I can see how someone would be afraid. Having faith will help you see that better. If I'm wrong, so what? What have I lost? I have eternity to gain and nothing to lose. *whispering* Thing is I know I'm not wrong so I'm not really taking a chance on anything *shhh*. Ask God to give what you need to believe. He won't call you back on the telephone, but you'll get an answer.

By the way, I like the picture. It's an excellent reminder of peace, change and fellowship.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by saint4God]

Loki

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:39 AM

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Originally posted by saint4God
By the way, I like the picture. It's an excellent reminder of peace, change and fellowship.

Which is exactly why I chose it, saint4God.

Thank you for recognizing that.

Gazrok

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:43 AM

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He saved them by saving what was truly important.
Thier souls.
Millions were killed in the holocaust, and thousands ded in the 9/11 attacks, but that doesn't mean they werent saved.

*just remembering my Confuscious-like quote in the beginning of this thread, as this is a prime example of it...*

If life on this Earth is so unimportant, then why even have it as a step at all, why not keep those souls in heaven? Why send them down in the first place to endure hardship for the innocent years of life (the infants) and then reclaim them before they had a chance to thrive? What kind of a perversity is this?

don't thinks it's a "He didn't feel like it" thing, it's something we don't understand because we are not God but are guarenteed to get the answer

Ah...the classic Christian cop-out...to put it in it's more familiar vernacular...."The Lord works in mysterious ways..." ooooh aaaahhhh.....booga booga.....

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Gazrok]

mwm1331

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:46 AM

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Loki -
I don't know for a fact that he saved all of those murdered people.
I know for a fact he saved those with faith. How ?
He told me so.
Not in words, I'm not schizo

But he told me none the less.
I really could care less what david humes thoughts on my faith are. Thats between me and God.
He allowed it to happen for the same reason he allows anything to happen, because he gave the NAZI's the same free will he gave the jews, the muslims the democrats the republicans, ad infinitum.
The jews were vctims of NAZI's who chose to be evil.

Gazrok - I don't know why, ask him maybe he will tell you.

Loki

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:50 AM

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No, I was speaking more about his theory about the ever-changing status of the world.

Pick up a rock, drop it seven billion times.

And on the seven billionth and first drop, you stil don't know for sure if it will hit the floor, or float to the sky.

Nothing is certain, other than that everything is uncertain, and faith falls under that blanket.

Perhaps I was beaten as a child a bit too much, but I find it more than difficult to have faith in anything but my own abilities.

LadyV

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 07:59 AM

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Originally posted by dawnstar
Where the problem comes in is when (not all christians), but some fundelmentalists will come in and tell abused women that they should "have faith" and remain with their abusive husbands. Or in extreme sects, they should avoid the medical treatment that is available and "have faith" that God will take care of them. (of course, considering our medical profession......)
or in really extreme sects......"have faith" and handle this extremely poisonous snake!!

Personally I wish they'd "have faith" that God can get our country back on track without totally undermining our constitution.

[edit on 18-11-2004 by dawnstar]

riley

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:04 AM

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Originally posted by DrHoracid
Many christians do see other points of view. Then they pray for you because your lost.

If Christians immediately decide someone is lost.. it's obvious they are not even trying to see other points of view.

saint4God

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:11 AM

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Originally posted by Gazrok
If life on this Earth is so unimportant, then why even have it as a step at all, why not keep those souls in heaven? Why send them down in the first place to endure hardship for the innocent years of life (the infants) and then reclaim them before they had a chance to thrive? What kind of a perversity is this?

I usually don't throw quotes but check this one out because is directly answers your questions -

(James 1:2) "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him."

Again, why are people afraid of pain? Does it not teach you how to overcome? Does it not make you a stronger person?

Originally posted by Gazrok
Ah...the classic Christian cop-out...to put it in it's more familiar vernacular...."The Lord works in mysterious ways..." ooooh aaaahhhh.....booga booga.....

I know because of my experience. My experience will not convince other people. You have to live your own experience but first you have to go after the truth. I do not have the power to convert people, all I can do is point to who can.

knights5629

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:41 AM

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Originally posted by Gazrok

Ah...the classic Christian cop-out...to put it in it's more familiar vernacular...."The Lord works in mysterious ways..." ooooh aaaahhhh.....booga booga.....

That sounds just like someone that refuses to listen to anything a Christian says. Yes, the Lord works in ways that we do not understand. Thats what faith is for.

By the same token, people who believe in wizards, MIB, aliens, conspiracies, etc..... have to have faith in what they believe as well. Governments are hiding something, aliens are abducting people- how do they do it? Mysterious, isn't it?

By the way, do you know all the physics behind making a airplane fly, yet you believe it won't come down (for the most part). Do you know how your nervous system works completely, yet you can still think and talk and comunicate with people. Do you know all the in's and out's of a power plant, yet you believe (unless hit by a Hurricane) that you will recieve electricity to run the computer that you are typing on. Why is it different for Christians? Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by knights5629]

Loki

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:48 AM
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The difference being that the only documentation of "God" is over 2000 years old, and the records are spotty, at best.

As for cover-ups....we learn more every day.
Everything we find, leaves us yet more mysteries to unravel.

Basically...

There is empirical evidence behind the claims of "Conspiracy Nuts", but "Bible Thumpers"(I hate that term.) Have little to nothing to go on.

Gazrok

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 08:51 AM
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By the same token, people who believe in wizards, MIB, aliens, conspiracies, etc..... have to have faith in what they believe as well. Governments are hiding something, aliens are abducting people- how do they do it? Mysterious, isn't it?

There is EVIDENCE for many of those things, and far more than just a book (which was written for the purpose of controlling the populace). Doesn't change the fact that it's a cop-out.

By the way, do you know all the physics behind making a airplane fly, yet you believe it won't come down (for the most part)

I have a basic understanding of it (lift, drag, wingspan, etc. grew up around air bases all my life), and I've seen one fly with my own eyes, and ridden on many...so no mystery there.

Do you know how your nervous system works completely, yet you can still think and talk and comunicate with people.

Again, I have a basic understanding of it (nerves, neurons, electrical impluses), and I KNOW I can think, talk, etc. this is not a matter of faith.

Do you know all the in's and out's of a power plant, yet you believe (unless hit by a Hurricane) that you will recieve electricity to run the computer that you are typing on.

Yet again, the proof is in the fact that you are reading this right now.

Why is it different for Christians? Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

It's different because there is no basis for the belief. Your answer is that we are too stupid of a creature to know the answer...I don't accept that. It is blind faith. Again, not saying it's a bad thing, but it has no basis in reality. It (religion) is a construct to explain that which is unknown, and replace it with absolutes, so that one feels better about the world around them, and feels as if they have some kind of grasp about what's going on. We ALL do it, no matter what our beliefs are....even those who are completely Atheistic have blind faith in the fact there is no organized sentience behind all things.

[edit on 19-11-2004 by Gazrok]

saint4God

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Loki
The difference being that the only documentation of "God" is over 2000 years old, and the records are spotty, at best.

Yeah, at the problem with new material is that 'it hasn't stood the test of time' too right?

There are thousands of books on people's experiences with God. The Bible just is considered a verifiable source. Certainly they don't make it in Walden's Books but take a look around a Family Christian Store or Amazon.com.

Originally posted by Loki
There is empirical evidence behind the claims of "Conspiracy Nuts", but "Bible Thumpers"(I hate that term.) Have little to nothing to go on.

Wohoo! I'm a Conspiracy Nut and a Bible Thumper! I think I need more points to include them under my username. More titles please, I'm starting a collection...

Gazrok

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:19 AM
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Wohoo! I'm a Conspiracy Nut and a Bible Thumper! I think I need more points to include them under my username. More titles please, I'm starting a collection...

are you kidding?

It's already more crowded than a bus carrying resigning Bush cabinet members!

knights5629

posted on Nov, 19 2004 @ 09:26 AM
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It's different because there is no basis for the belief. Your answer is that we are too stupid of a creature to know the answer...I don't accept that. It is blind faith. Again, not saying it's a bad thing, but it has no basis in reality.

So are you stupid if you don't know the all the workings of the Universe? What about the Planets? How did they get to be what they are today? By the way, I don't consider my self stupid by any stretch of the imagination, but I realize there are some things I don't know. Does that make us stupid? No, we just don't know yet. I choose Faith over no Faith.