Billboards Declare Prayer, Bibles Not Helping Disaster Victims

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I don't.
Things are only as complicated as you make them.

-Peace-

reply to post by Eryiedes


Well regardless I wasn't making things any more complicated… as I said multiple times. Atheism is merely the lack of belief in god(s). I am in no way arguing the simplicity of this.

Anyhoot. Said what I can on that matter. I'm repeating myself and that's no doubt getting tedious to anyone reading my posts.

undo
reply to post by nenothtu

 

personally, i think it's your own will that's making these decisions. you create your eternity or lack thereof, by your decisions. if you want it to be unpleasant, then it is. if you say it isn't real, then it isn't real for you. but you're basically using your gifts and free will, as given to you by god, to shape your future. all of these things, require decisions, you personally make. they aren't so much punishments, but decisions you've made. there's a set of rules to follow but those rules are more related to what happens after than what's happening now. but what's happening now, effects what happens later.

edit on 29-11-2013 by undo because: (no reason given)

There may be something broken inside my head, because that response made perfect sense to me!

It seems a variant on what I've been saying for quite a while now, not that a god does not exist, nor that this god or that god is better than someone else's god, but that there is only one god, but all the little sects and denominations are in error when they try to trap that god into THEIR way of thinking. They seem to me to be trying to make a god in their own mold, rather than the other way around. By trying to force a god into their own way of thinking, they are in effect trying to wring it's arm behind it's back and make it cry "UNCLE!" By trying to trap a god into their own limited understanding, they would then be truncating that god, limiting it, not seeing or allowing for the totality of it.

Now, if this god were to be as big as I think it is, then there is no particular reason that it would have to place the limits upon itself that this or that sect attempt to place on it. They could only "see" that part of a deity that falls within their own particular understanding, and miss the rest of the forest because all those trees are blocking their line of sight. That wouldn't mean it wasn't there - only that their conception of it colored their experience of it.

Atheists would take the most truncated view of all, trying to limit the very existence of such a god into non-existence. That's fine for them - and according to your post quoted above, such a deity (if benevolent) would give them just what they expect - nothing(ness). In relation to others, they would get what they expect, I guess. For a Christian, judgement and a chance at some variant of their heaven, for Muslims some variant of Jannah, for Jews a berth in Sheol (that would kinda suck, I think, but it's theirs to wish for), for my own people the Happy Hunting Ground of Tapaksimochi, etc.

Kind of a vicious cycle - what they believe influences what facet of a god they experience, which in turn influences their decisions as you say, which then influences their final disposition. Since Atheists believe in a nothing, and they experience a nothing, then I suppose their final disposition would be a nothing(ness), which apparently is all they wish for.

Suits me, suits them, suits a god (if benevolent - it gets to give everybody what they want), everybody happy now! let's all go have a beer and get over it! What comes, comes!

Lucid Lunacy

@nenothtu, Undo writing replies.

???

Does that mean you believe as Undo does, so your replies are the same as Undo's?

I was sort of hoping for a bit more from you, in an effort to understand how and what it is you believe. I think I've got a fair grasp of the way Undo believes - should I just apply that to you as well?

reply to post by nenothtu


whew, i'm glad i made sense to somebody. i re-read it a few times and thought, i bet those last 2 sentences are gonna generate some "say whaaaat?" responses.

yeah i think the text basically points that out, repeatedly. god isn't doing this to you -- you are doing this to you. god provides the tools, we make the choices. it's been traditionally interpreted that it's all god's doing, but i don't think that's accurate based on the repeated references to personal responsibility. it nearly screams it, in fact. this area i think, leaks over heavily into quantum theory as well. you have all these possibilities available in a quantum mush of time strings, and when you make a choice, you go down one string instead of another, and when you make another choice, you hop to another string and so on.

have you ever seen the double slit experiment?

reply to post by nenothtu

???

Does that mean you believe as Undo does, so your replies are the same as Undo's?

No I meant I am in the process of writing replies to both of you. Sorry for the confusing wording. Trying to make time while I am working on a few web projects. Will be a moment.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by OpinionatedB

 

I can certainly appreciate what you're saying

I am sure there are exceptions amongst the religious. Wasn't meaning to speak for you or anyone in particular, just making a general observation. From my viewpoint most of Christendom (as a pertinent example) believes if they are good Christians they will be rewarded with Heaven. Intrinsic to that belief, since you need to be a Christian to be a good Christian, atheists, non-religious, the 'wrong faiths', won't make the cut. That's very much elevating the Christian in importance above the rest. Like infinitely so. What could make someone more special than being chosen by the creator of everything to live eternally in perfect bliss? It's truly outlandish for a Christian to make a comment like "atheists need to stop pretending like they are better". What the hell lol

I just wanted to point out that there are some who do not believe themselves special or deserving. If anyone feels they deserve heaven, their attitude toward God and honesty about themselves are very much not right.

Well…

Often what I hear is everyone is basking in sin. Everyone's a sinner and everyone is falling short in the eyes of the Lord. So why would I say they are saying they are deserving of Heaven? Simple. I am not using Bible speak. I am observing the implications of their words from an outside perspective. If a Christian believes they are sinning, falling short in the eyes of god, but accepts Jesus and everything else that particular denomination says they need to do to be saved, god will forgive and they will be permitted everlasting life next to the All Mighty. Break that down and remove the Bible speak. The person has to do certain tasks, and if they are met, that person earns the reward. Earns aka deserves.

edit on 29-11-2013 by Lucid Lunacy because: (no reason given)

sorry, i haven't learned how to highlight stuff, yet.

"most" christians, do not believe they are automatically going to heaven or better than anyone else.

the Lord judges your heart, not your toys or deeds or wealth.

no one has a guarantee to everlasting life.

as to people that have beliefs other than Jesus, i assume God will judge them, the same way.

i know, i know, what Jesus said about the way to God, is through Him.

God loves everyone. Jesus died, for everyone.

hey, i ain't no theologian, the finer details and esoteric passages are above my pay grade.

need more answers? talk to a pro, lol!

i'm not sure how many here are ordained or seminary students, but there seems to be alot of different interpretations
of religions, christianity and bible.
hey, me included.

but it's brilliant, isn't it?
the way it seems to be set up, i mean.


belief is faith or faith is belief?

what good is free will, if you can't use it?

nenothtu

Lucid Lunacy
If a Christian believes they are sinning, falling short in the eyes of god, but accepts Jesus and everything else that particular denomination says they need to do to be saved, god will forgive and they will be permitted everlasting life next to the All Mighty. Break that down and remove the Bible speak. The person has to do certain tasks, and if they are met, that person earns the reward. Earns aka deserves.

That happens to be one of my bigger gripes against Christians in general. They go around saying "not by works, but by faith", and then proceed to list the works necessary to win the prize.

Doesn't make sense to me.

I think Calvinists may have a better grip on the whole "working your way into heaven" philosophy - they're pretty sure that isn't an option. Not much in Christianity ticks me off more than thinking one can get to heaven on a legalistic technicality, that they can hold their god's feet to the fire via contractual obligations which they themselves can flout at will.

Live like hell all week long then go to church on Sunday and all will be well, because you've got a contract....

My ass.

Jesus hated the Pharisees.

He didn't like their self righteousness, at all.

they were so full of themselves, weren't they?

we have to remember, they weren't christian and neither was Jesus.

reply to post by tsingtao

sorry, i haven't learned how to highlight stuff, yet.

Highlight or quote?

To quote wrap the text in

[ quote]sample quote[ / quote] *w/o spaces.

To make bold [ b]bold text[ / b]

To color the text [ color=orange]colored text[ / color]

"most" christians, do not believe they are automatically going to heaven

To be fair I didn't say that.

or better than anyone else.

I very much disagree. I think that's precisely what they believe. I already described why I think so with respect to the religious belief. Look also at this thread. Within it we have Christians essentially saying they are morally superior because they have their Christian faith. That's obviously positing that person is better. We have some claiming atheists are void of love. That's clearly positing the same. Additionally, Christians are most certainly claiming they are better spiritually.

no one has a guarantee to everlasting life.

I hear otherwise all the time from Christians. Again, so long as certain religious steps are taken.

as to people that have beliefs other than Jesus, i assume God will judge them, the same way.

And those that died really young, those that were born in the wrong place and never even got a chance to hear the 'good word', those born before the times of Jesus.

need more answers? talk to a pro, lol!

I do listen to the theologians religious people consider pro. I am fond of watching religious debates.

seems to be alot of different interpretations
of religions, christianity and bible.
hey, me included.

but it's brilliant, isn't it?

Countless subjective interpretations about a supposed Universal truth intended to be followed with dire consequences…. can't be a great thing

belief is faith or faith is belief?

In this context, faith is belief without evidence.

"2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

tsingtao

Jesus hated the Pharisees.

He didn't like their self righteousness, at all.

they were so full of themselves, weren't they?

we have to remember, they weren't christian and neither was Jesus.

Now, now... you seem to be flying into the face of most Christian doctrines, which tend to posit that Jesus loved everyone, and died for everyone, etc., etc, and the same for God - they say it's a "loving God", loves everyone, etc., etc...

Now, how could one "love everyone" while simultaneously hating someone? See, I think quite a few Christians just haven't thought that through... see my above reference to Calvinists - they don't think that way. They've got a doctrine of "Election", so God doesn't have to love everyone. After all, the Bible says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. An "all loving" God couldn't do both at the same time, you see. Then, in the matter of Jesus, we have that problem you mention with the Pharisees and Saducees, and then there was that little dustup at the temple between he and the money changers, so I guess he turned out not to be all that inclusive in his love - nor all that peaceful, either.

P.S. - don't point that out to any Christians, for god's sakes! They get all manner of bent out of shape when you do! It disturbs their calm.

Except that your state of mind can make the difference between surviving and not. The praying, the Bibles, the general religious stuff, it's all about medicine for the mind. There's a reason that, true or not, the old saying is "there are no atheists in foxholes".

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


Sure…

the fear of death and the fear of the unknown is strong…

Using religion to soothe that pain surely helps. I wouldn't deny that!

That in no way gives credence to religion as actual truth!

All that amounts to is that it's useful in some manner.

No doubt religion has many uses for people.

Does that outweigh the cons? I would argue not. Either way, I have no interest to bandaid my wound (fear of unknowns) by adopting any belief system without damn good evidence to do so.

Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by tsingtao

 

sorry, i haven't learned how to highlight stuff, yet.

Highlight or quote?

To quote wrap the text in

[ quote]sample quote[ / quote] *w/o spaces.

To make bold [ b]bold text[ / b]

To color the text [ color=orange]colored text[ / color]

"most" christians, do not believe they are automatically going to heaven

To be fair I didn't say that.

or better than anyone else.

I very much disagree. I think that's precisely what they believe. I already described why I think so with respect to the religious belief. Look also at this thread. Within it we have Christians essentially saying they are morally superior because they have their Christian faith. That's obviously positing that person is better. We have some claiming atheists are void of love. That's clearly positing the same. Additionally, Christians are most certainly claiming they are better spiritually.

no one has a guarantee to everlasting life.

I hear otherwise all the time from Christians. Again, so long as certain religious steps are taken.

as to people that have beliefs other than Jesus, i assume God will judge them, the same way.

And those that died really young, those that were born in the wrong place and never even got a chance to hear the 'good word', those born before the times of Jesus.

need more answers? talk to a pro, lol!

I do listen to the theologians religious people consider pro. I am fond of watching religious debates.

seems to be alot of different interpretations
of religions, christianity and bible.
hey, me included.

but it's brilliant, isn't it?

Countless subjective interpretations about a supposed Universal truth intended to be followed with dire consequences…. can't be a great thing

belief is faith or faith is belief?

In this context, faith is belief without evidence.

"2. strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
ok, bolding stuff, when i try, it disappears.

maybe you didn't but that's the prevailing belief from non christians. (heaven)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________
yeah, but more atheists claiming christians are just wrong, in their belief and spirituality isn't exclusively christian. then again, if ya have no spirituality, what does one expect?
and christians generally, are more humble than atheists, hence the soft target. right?
who claims they are better?
i never see 100 threads bashing atheisim, here. maybe 1 or 2 and then everyone jumps to the defence and somehow it all gets turned around to christians.

i hear all the time, that there is NO afterlife, no matter what steps are taken.
there are no steps to get to heaven, far as i know.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________

as to people that have beliefs other than Jesus, i assume God will judge them, the same way.

And those that died really young, those that were born in the wrong place and never even got a chance to hear the 'good word', those born before the times of Jesus.

yes, that's what i said.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________

debates? why don't you go against a pro yourself? probably get more out of it.
it's like cutting heads, between jeff beck and steve vai. you will go with who you liked from the start.
and find any excuse to justify your decision. all sides do it.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________

but it's brilliant, isn't it?
Countless subjective interpretations about a supposed Universal truth intended to be followed with dire consequences…. can't be a great thing

not what i meant. free will is what i meant.
think of it! why do some people insist on God, making this earth, heaven? no war, starvation, blah, blah, blah...
everyone knows who is the boss, etc...milk and honey stuff.
geeze, who wants to live like that?

ya think we'd have the internet? no! no one would be bothered to do #! all would be taken care of, by God, right?
________________________________________________________________________________________________

belief is faith or faith is belief?

In this context, faith is belief without evidence.

ya, for some, the evidence is hard to find, eh?
______________________________________________________________________________________________

i don't get #2.

nenothtu

tsingtao

Jesus hated the Pharisees.

He didn't like their self righteousness, at all.

they were so full of themselves, weren't they?

we have to remember, they weren't christian and neither was Jesus.

Now, now... you seem to be flying into the face of most Christian doctrines, which tend to posit that Jesus loved everyone, and died for everyone, etc., etc, and the same for God - they say it's a "loving God", loves everyone, etc., etc...

Now, how could one "love everyone" while simultaneously hating someone? See, I think quite a few Christians just haven't thought that through... see my above reference to Calvinists - they don't think that way. They've got a doctrine of "Election", so God doesn't have to love everyone. After all, the Bible says that God loved Jacob but hated Esau. An "all loving" God couldn't do both at the same time, you see. Then, in the matter of Jesus, we have that problem you mention with the Pharisees and Saducees, and then there was that little dustup at the temple between he and the money changers, so I guess he turned out not to be all that inclusive in his love - nor all that peaceful, either.

P.S. - don't point that out to any Christians, for god's sakes! They get all manner of bent out of shape when you do! It disturbs their calm.

oh yeah, Jesus was on this earth as human.
lol!!
He told it like it is, right?

who gives a crap what these other things you quote, probably out of context, too.

when they have a change of heart, then it's ok. i guess.

Jesus gave them a lot of sh**, for sure and who said Jesus should be a wuss?

people tell me that i don't sound christian, on forums, lol.
even saying i'm a fake christian!!

i am not Jesus. (nor a saint or a pope, or any higher up. whatever that means)

you, my friend, will have to find answers on your own. i don't care if you do or not.


i just try to deny ignorance. know what i mean?

AnIntellectualRedneck
Except that your state of mind can make the difference between surviving and not. The praying, the Bibles, the general religious stuff, it's all about medicine for the mind. There's a reason that, true or not, the old saying is "there are no atheists in foxholes".

it can stop panic, which can be very dangerous, to survival.

The Law of Averages

i think what's happening is, the dudes at the top who are trying to engineer our societies in the direction they want us to go, are using the law of averages against us. the more people in a society, the easier it is to find examples of behavior that the engineers wish to use as examples. it's the most aggregious form of bigotry, imaginable, because 1) it does not reflect the norm, but rather the law of averages in any given society which states, you will be able to find examples, from the most outrageous to the most sublime in any given society but the average is the most prolific and most inoffensive, 2) and they choose to use the most outrageous, which in turn, inspires the people being attacked, to reciprocate in kind and soon the conversation leaves reality entirely. that is a psych war. for my part in that manipulation i do apologize to my atheist friends, as i realize stalin is not an example of the average atheist mindset.

tsingtao

who gives a crap what these other things you quote, probably out of context, too.

What "other things"? maybe I've mistaken the context you prefer to live in...

Jesus gave them a lot of sh**, for sure and who said Jesus should be a wuss?

Not me. I kinda pointed out that he wasn't, despite the current vogue in Christianity to turn him into one. It does a disservice to Christianity - opponents can point to such instance - and do, consistently - to generally get Christians all wrapped up in their odd notions of the nature of Jesus.

you, my friend, will have to find answers on your own. i don't care if you do or not.

Thanks. I've found my answers that work for me, until and unless better answers come along. I wouldn't expect you to care either way - especially since you've outed yourself as a Christian. Funny how so many Christians claim to be trying to emulate Jesus, claim that he is "all loving", and then get callous as can be themselves. Some Christian emulation there! There seems to be a disconnect in their thought patterns.

i just try to deny ignorance. know what i mean?

Likewise. it seems to get some folks' panties in a bunch, but there it is.

have you ever heard of dominionist theology? you should look it up. what it basically boils down to is a form of totalitarian christianity which mimics old testament judaism and islam. those are scary people. that is not jesus. i don't care what anybody says. jesus said pray for those who hurt you, not hang them from the yard arm. it says turn the other cheek, not at first glimpse of trouble, bury him up to his neck and stone him to death. the guys who were pulling that off in the old testament, jesus called the synagogue of satan, not the temple of nice guys. jesus said, if they don't want to hear the gospel, move on, not shove it down their throats.

be careful if you're a christian, think over the whole "we're gonna take over the planet for jesus" stuff. jesus is just fine taking it over for himself. he doesn't need us to force it on others.

reply to post by Grimpachi


I agree with the general message of these billboards, as I'm an atheist, however; the majority religion of the Philippines is Catholicism, and religion (aka spiritual welfare) is something that can help people mentally face difficult times and keep hope.

I have a few friends over there, most were not affected by Haiyan directly, but two of them were affected greatly; one is a school teacher in Samar, and the other lives (lived) in Ormoc. I maintain contact with them and have sent them money...money to buy things like water, food, toiletries and the like.

So yes, people in disasters need help, and basic necessities...but also they need to keep hope, and be strong enough emotionally to make it. If their faith in religion gives them that hope, then who am I to say that prayers don't help?

reply to post by Grimpachi


If you are going to donate, donate from the heart. If you want to dictate where and how that money is spent, don't donate. By donating, you are trusting a third party to provide relief, not the kind of relief provided.

If you are an atheist and have a problem with what the Catholic Church is donating, TOO BAD!

You are no one to dictate to the Catholic Church because:

A) the Vatican is a sovereign entity not beholden to any government.
B) you're an atheist. What difference does it make?
C) if you are in the phillipenes and suffering (which I highly doubt), you will take ANYTHING given.

That is some audacity to criticise an act of love simply because it doesn't quite fit with your definition of aid.