Time dilation and high-density energy storage

Hey ATS! Well, I sat down and had me a thought the other day about time dilation and if it could be used advantageously with regard to energy storage.

So, I'll postulate a scenario and see what our resident ATS physicists have to say about it.

Suppose that we have a vessel capable of traveling at near-light speeds. For fun, let's call it the Millenium Falcon. And suppose, for example, that in the future we develop a method of extremely high-density energy storage, millions of times more dense than the capability of a modern wet-cell battery.

Now let's say I have a massive solar-power-generating facility on Earth using this technology of high-density electrical energy storage to store all the solar power it absorbs. I also have the materials to set up an identical solar-power-generating facility located on a distant planet, let's say it's 1 light-year away for simplicity's sake.

Each solar facility will be capable of generating 500 megawatts of power, then subsequently storing all this electrical energy in a high-density power storage array.

So, I set up my facility on earth to store all the energy it absorbs while I'm on my trip, and I hop in the Falcon and head off at 0.99c, pretty darn close to the speed of light.

I reach my distant planet in about a year, and I set up my 500 megawatt solar power facility on that planet so it will store all the energy it absorbs while I am gone.

I hop back in the good 'ol Falcon and head back to mother Earth. When I arrive, I am roughly 2 years older than when I departed. In 2 years time, a 500 megawatt solar facility would have stored about 2.76 billion kilowatt-hours of energy. However, due to the effects of time dilation, the frame of reference for my facility on Earth has actually experienced over 14 years.

So I check how much energy my facility has stored over this 14-year period I was gone, and holy smokes! I have stored over 19 billion kilowatt-hours of energy in my high density array. Wow! With that much energy I can load up the Falcon and head back to my far distant planet to see what yummy energy surprise I have there!

So I dump all the energy stored in the array on Earth into the Falcon and set off. When I arrive at my facility on my far-distant planet, I find the same thing has happened. My round trip to Earth and back at 0.99c took me about 2 years in my frame of reference. But due to the effects of relativity and time dilation, my facility there has stored another 19 billion kilowatt-hours of energy just waiting for me.

So as long as I keep on the move (and I mean moving, like 0.99c), I can have 14 years worth of free energy every 2 years!

Now this is theoretical, so let's not get wrapped up in practicalities like the type of propulsion for the vessel, the hospitality of the far-distant planet, or the Jawas to run the facility while I'm gone.

Any thoughts? When it comes to goofy stuff like this, physicists can sometimes be harsher than the IT guy on the 3rd floor when you can't get your keyboard to work, so be nice!

To avoid confusion, here is the Jawa that will run the facility for me:

You don't really ask a question or make a point. What kind of response are you looking for? You just present a hypothetical configuration, and that's it.

Just of few of my thoughts:

1. This would require you to only go to the same locations as far as I understand, I guess it would work as a form of public transit but for space.

2. This also assumes no one else would want to take that energy while you are gone or that you are the only source using it.

3. This all also assumes that these technologies could be invent in the first place.

It would make for interesting science fiction. Most simply get rid of time dilation with warp drives or unmentioned FTL drives.

This would be a great premise for a book or movie.

Good idea.

As far as practical, I guess you have to hope no one tries to take over your facility while you are gone, or on the other end, the jawas get cranky…

Or, you could set up two batteries right here on Earth, and fly around randomly at light speed for one year, and get 14 years worth of energy when you stopped.

I am sorry, but this example just shows that you didn't understand Relativity:

(a) Both locations are 1 lightyear apart.
(b) you are traveling with 99%c - resulting in a dilation ON BOARD YOUR VESSEL of 7.1.
(c) you are traveling both ways, ergo 2 lightyears in distance.


Okay, you are starting from earth and WHOOSH goes your falcon to location B.

Viewpoint A: Earth.
Viewpoint B: Location in a distance of 1 lightyear.
Viewpoint C: You in your vessel. (Acceleration infinite, you are at travelingspeed in no-time...)

Lets look at a table of viewpoints per time:

1 week: A- you are about a lightweek away. B- you are about 51 lightweeks away, coming closer, but we can't see you yet, as you are nearly as fast as the light emitting from your vessel. C- You have traveled for about 1 day in onboard-time (thanks to dilation).

1 month: A- you are about a lightmonth away. B- you are about 48 lightweeks away, still can't see you. C- you have traveled for about 4 days now. Earth's sun glows red behind you, the target can be "seen" in deadly amounts of gamma-rays. Anyway, your shielding holds strong!

6 months: A- you are about half a lightyear away. B- you are about half a lightyear away, still can't see you. C- you have traveled for about 3.5 weeks now.

11.99 months: A- you are nearly there. B- WOAH, where does this vessel come from?! Oh, its you! Wellcome! C-Man, that was fast. Just took you 8 weeks.. For a lightyear? Welllll... Not from the looks on your good-old trusty odometer.. That thing just showed about a 15th of a lightyear.. Where did the distance go?


Same goes for your journey back.

The vessel's journey will take less than 2 months. SEEN FROM THE INSIDE OF THE VESSEL.
From the outside, for the rest of the universe, the distance between both locations was 1 lightyear. For which your vessel took about 1 year. SEEN FROM THE OUTSIDE.

reply to post by InTheFlesh1980


So the only purpose of this ship would be to collect energy that can be used on Earth. Almost free energy, since all but two year's worth could be used by the people back home.

That's actually kind of clever. You start with one year's worth, and end up with 12 years to spare.

reply to post by ManFromEurope


Bah. Guess I don't understand it, either.

reply to post by InTheFlesh1980


It's all theory. You'll end up a permanent vagabond bound to collecting energy instead of tin cans and bottles.

reply to post by InTheFlesh1980


Why would there be time dilation, if you went into space under the speed of light, if you were to shoot a few Photon's towards your Destination, from Earth, you could follow just behind the Protons, they would be traveling at speed of light.

Now looking Back at the Earth it would appear almost the same as when you left it. It would look almost standing still.

So now you plot a photon that left the Earth, One year prior, you Travel at twice the speed of light to your destination, Now you return to Earth, along plotted course at twice the speed of light , you would return one year before you left.

Now if you were traveling faster than the speed of light, would you start to drag gravity, behind you? If you were to go fast enough would you lose mass or gain it?

Please explain how time would go faster, I know that change in gravity will cause electrons to move at different speeds around a atom. Atomic clocks use electrons to measure time, difference's in time.

How far out would you need to extend second hand of a round clock, that the arms is in theory traveling faster than the speed of Light. How far away would that second hand need to be.

If the Electrons in your body make you age faster or slower.

011001000110111101101110001001110111010000100000011000100110010101101100011010010110010101110110011001010010000001101001011011100010000001100100011000 010111001001101011001000000110110101100001011101000111010001100101011100100010000001100101011010010111010001101000011001010111001000101100001000000110 010101111000011011110111010001101001011000110010000001100111011100100110000101110110011010010111010001111001000011010000101000001101000010100000110100 001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010 000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011 010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000 101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000 001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101 000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010 100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000 110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100 001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010 000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011 010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000 101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000 001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101 000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010 100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000 110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100 001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010 000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011 010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000 101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000 001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101 000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010100000110100001010000011010000101000001101000010 1000001101000010100000110100001010

Elphineas
reply to post by ManFromEurope

 

Bah. Guess I don't understand it, either.

Actually, it is quite simple: For you and your vessel, only some weeks will have been spent on the journey.


BUT: you can't cross 1 lightyear in some weeks. And this distance is measurable, FROM THE OUTSIDE. A viewer at Earth measures 1 lightyear to your destination, and on your destination there is another viewer, measuring 1 lightyear back to earth, too.

Only in your vessel time "flies" and space "shrinks", as you are going on a very, very high speed.

Therefore, the batteries will have been recharged for 2 years until you come back to earth (going 1 year away, returning for another year).

You didn't jump in the future!
You just aged not so much as all of us stayers!

So many actual Physics issues/unknowns in your description it's not really worth attempting..

Aside from time dilation at 99% of c not really providing the benefits you describe:

If you accelerate a high mass object to 99% of C you will need to somehow accelerate its (high) mass back to relative percentile of C at your destination for all parts to remain intact.

This means you can't go 99% of C for the entire journey significantly increasing your journey time.

I guess this would , once energy calculations relating to mass, inertia and time are calculated, probably negate any perceived benefits as described.

reply to post by ManFromEurope


I still don't get it what about if you are really close to black hole. Could you get that close to Black hole.

Why would you not age as fast close to speed of light.

Your talking about Einstein, and he made up the cosmic constant, so he could balance his equation. He made it up.

Manfromeurope has it bang on the numbers. All that time dilation does is slow down the time of the person travelling at high speeds. The rest of us who sit about waiting for the ship to go from point A to point B (and back again) The energy generation at point A and B will be 1 year. To you, great, you can pick up one year of energy and you have only experienced a few months of time... but unless you basically live all of your life at that speed, you really are not net gaining any energy. And by the sounds of it, the good old falcon would likely be burning alot of energy in the process of this.


Back holes... the closest you could probably get if it is spinning (probably will be, pretty much everything in the universe spins) is somewhere around the Ergosphere, at this point space is so distorted that it twists and elongates. It is possible to remain motionless in the Ergosphere, much like a geostationary satellite, though the velocity you require is very close to C.

That said, it is likely that tidal forces would rip you a new... make that several new assholes before you even got that close. Not to mention the nice radiation bake you would get from all the material heated up by the region too.

reply to post by InTheFlesh1980


I'm sorry I don't have much time to answer this now...

however I suggest you read into the following to gain a better understanding...

Special Relativity SR
Lorentz transformation
Length Contraction
Twin paradox

Researching these terms will give you a much better understanding of what a frame of reference is and how time dilation works.

Peace,

Korg.

I don't get why so little love for the OP, this kind of thing gets speculated on all the time in a hypothetical. Yes, it's stupid in a practical sense, but it has great potential in scifi or just for s & giggles. They do the same thing at MIT, NASA, and people like Stephen Hawking posit the same crap.

He did say his 1 light year variable was just for arguments sakes so if you want replace (x) for 100.

Driving a car at the speed of light.

Stephen Hawkings light speed train.

About the only different thing to this one is the selfishness of hoarding energy between flights and wanting to outlive everyone, not to mention no calculations on how much energy is used for the flight compared to how much builds up in the "super dense" batteries or whatever it's called. And whether or not you are going to bring your girlfriend on the trip, or knock her up and leave her at home simply to avoid child rearing.

Nothing wrong with posing hypotheticals. But instead of saying the OP and his idea are turds you can do the work to show how it would or would not work, and make that effort by changing minor things he did wrong, instead of saying it has no place at all as an idea.

Not like he's trying to sell a millennium falcon kit online $39.99 (shipping extra)…

reply to post by ManFromEurope

Thanks for the replies, folks. Guess I have more reading to do!

The topic is fascinating to me, and it was just a thought experiment.

But even if I was incorrect about the mathematics regarding the perceived elapsed time within the vessel when traveling 1 light year away, it still seems that if you traveled at that speed there will be a difference when you return to Earth.

If more time has elapsed on Earth than within the vessel, regardless of the distance traveled, then the general premise regarding the energy storage may still apply.

Anyhow, you guys are great!

reply to post by InTheFlesh1980

But even if I was incorrect about the mathematics regarding the perceived elapsed time within the vessel when traveling 1 light year away, it still seems that if you traveled at that speed there will be a difference when you return to Earth.

Without adding complex math to your thread, the Hawking article kind of answers your question:

It really is that simple. If we want to travel into the future, we just need to go fast. Really fast. And I think the only way we're ever likely to do that is by going into space. The fastest manned vehicle in history was Apollo 10. It reached 25,000mph. But to travel in time we'll have to go more than 2,000 times faster. And to do that we'd need a much bigger ship, a truly enormous machine. The ship would have to be big enough to carry a huge amount of fuel, enough to accelerate it to nearly the speed of light. Getting to just beneath the cosmic speed limit would require six whole years at full power.
The initial acceleration would be gentle because the ship would be so big and heavy. But gradually it would pick up speed and soon would be covering massive distances. In one week it would have reached the outer planets. After two years it would reach half-light speed and be far outside our solar system. Two years later it would be travelling at 90 per cent of the speed of light. Around 30 trillion miles away from Earth, and four years after launch, the ship would begin to travel in time. For every hour of time on the ship, two would pass on Earth. A similar situation to the spaceship that orbited the massive black hole.
After another two years of full thrust the ship would reach its top speed, 99 per cent of the speed of light. At this speed, a single day on board is a whole year of Earth time. Our ship would be truly flying into the future.


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To put it into a "hard" scifi context, I don't see how any of this is plausible (or reasonable) unless maybe the ship was running a circuit within the universe and dropping self operational machines to build your energy storage units and also harvest them, (essentially seeding the universe with energy reserves that could later be used), this of course would require some need for such thing, so we could say the Earth became inhospitable and the rest of mankind travelled via super ship around the universe dropping these little energy machines only to come back around on the second trip and dump a set amount of settlers to use them.

Actually, it might make for a good book.

Elphineas
reply to post by InTheFlesh1980

 

So the only purpose of this ship would be to collect energy that can be used on Earth. Almost free energy, since all but two year's worth could be used by the people back home.

That's actually kind of clever. You start with one year's worth, and end up with 12 years to spare.

From the people back at home, it doesn't help. They get a second solar plant on a another planet, delivering it's energy once per year. Since they want to expend energy at a rate determined by machinery in the planetary reference frame, there's no free lunch.

reply to post by boncho


The whole thing of trying together fuel in first pace would be a waste, fuel, energy is nothing, to calculate the ripples in space and projecting a navigation plan would be,the Ais problem.

Plus they have that little Alien, like on Futurama, the bugger just poop's out those, neutrino poop's, for power.
That's some heavy stuff.

Jukiodone
So many actual Physics issues/unknowns in your description it's not really worth attempting..

Aside from time dilation at 99% of c not really providing the benefits you describe:

If you accelerate a high mass object to 99% of C you will need to somehow accelerate its (high) mass back to relative percentile of C at your destination for all parts to remain intact.

This means you can't go 99% of C for the entire journey significantly increasing your journey time.

I guess this would , once energy calculations relating to mass, inertia and time are calculated, probably negate any perceived benefits as described.

edit on 25-11-2013 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

edit on 25-11-2013 by Jukiodone because: (no reason given)

So it looks like you would have to be using a Warp Drive.
You would need that bubble, so you would have to warp space/time to get there , which puts a whole new spin on the whole ting.