Dangerous Philosophy: Something Can Come From Nothing

There are several philosophical pillars upon which Western society is built on, pillars which I believe are not all too stable. Western thought has progressed off of unstable pillars and weak foundations, and I have made it my undertaking to identify some of these pillars. Read on, and risk having the foundation of your views taken out from underneath you. Choose to stop reading, and be forever enshrouded in curiosity.

I would first like to talk about Nothingness. What is Nothingness? It is not something. It is a state of non-being. It is purely defined by what it is not. But in Mathematics, it is defined by 0. In logic, one of it's basic tenets is: "something can't come from nothing." Both of these uses of Nothingness are misleading. The number 0 is simply a placeholder for Nothingness, but it misleads us into thinking 0 as a number represents something just like all other numbers do. This is wrong, there is no "something" that we can define as nothing.

I will argue there are two possible truths regarding Nothingness in our world.
1) Nothingness does not exist
2) Something can come from nothing

These two statements are not mutually exclusive, but if you accept #2 it follows that "Something can't come from nothing" is false.

I believe the statement "Something can't come from nothing" is wrong. Here is why.
1) This statement defines Nothingness as a "something" from which nothing can come, similar to how we often view the number 0 as a "something," even though it is not.
2) While Western thought has progressed largely on the shoulders of scientific discovery, this statement, unlike all other conclusions in science, cannot be experientially confirmed. We cannot say "Here is an instance of nothing... there was no something that came out of it, therefore something can't come from nothing." This is because Nothingness does not exist, so we cannot test it scientifically.
3) Before the website www.abovetopsecret.com was taken, it was nothing. Nothing existed in its place. When this website was founded, it became something. Therefore, something came from nothing.
4) In experiments regarding Quantum Physics, there have been instances where particles seem to jump in and out of existence. In this case, it would seem something is coming from nothing.

What are the implications of our system of science of logic being based on a faulty conception of Nothingness? It removes one of the central pillars of science and logic. It severely limits the scope of our future thoughts and discoveries. It lends itself to closed-mindedness and ignorance in our culture and philosophy. It could partially account for our inability to unify Quantum Physics and Special Relativity into a Unified Theory of Physics, as Quantum Physics is based on a different conception of Nothingness than Special Relativity is.

If you fail to see the implications of the removal of this central pillar immediately, that is perfectly ok. But as you go back into the world it will start to hit you how important and central this concept of Nothingness is. You will see it very clearly if you travel anywhere in Asia where their thought has strong Buddhist roots, and their conception of Nothingness is very refined and accurate. The differences in Eastern and Western culture are very far reaching, and while on the surface they seem to have nothing to do with Nothingness, at its roots this concept permeates everything that has developed in both the Eastern and Western world.

reply to post by Wang Tang

.
Isn't that alchemy? It is pretty dangerous

When I was 6, as I lay in bed, I pondered this question.

Needless to say, my 6 year old mind managed to freek myself out completely.

reply to post by Wang Tang


Good post.

I just thought I'd mention, that in deep states of Samahdi (yogic meditation)
a lot of people think that they are finding 'nothingness' but in fact the much
'vaunted' and 'desired' void is in fact 'the fullness'.

In fact the 'nothingness' is an eternal 'fullness'. At least that's what a number
of my friends have come to agree with.. and those friends only agree with
about half of what I observe and have very feisty differences ;-)
But that they agree with.

Now in Samahdi, in the so-called Nirvikalpa stage, everything seems
non-changing.. but it's still the fullness.. there is just an apparent
lack of motion due to timelessness.. so everything looks static..but
it's not nothingness .. it's fullness.

Interesting that you are passionate about this topic.. a pretty arcane
interest.

Keep up the good work.

KPB

reply to post by Wang Tang

I would first like to talk about Nothingness. What is Nothingness? It is not something. It is a state of non-being. It is purely defined by what it is not. But in Mathematics, it is defined by 0. In logic, one of it's basic tenets is: "something can't come from nothing." Both of these uses of Nothingness are misleading. The number 0 is simply a placeholder for Nothingness, but it misleads us into thinking 0 as a number represents something just like all other numbers do. This is wrong, there is no "something" that we can define as nothing.

But 0 does represent many things 10, 100, 1000, 1,000,000......


Zero represents both the lack of something counted and is used to represent counted and countless things.

The concept of 0 could not be understood by us until the concept of 1 was created.

We could not understand zero universes until one universe came to exist.

3) Before the website www.abovetopsecret.com was taken, it was nothing. Nothing existed in its place. When this website was founded, it became something. Therefore, something came from nothing.

Actually something did exist.

An idea.

The idea existed and was put into existence.

The real problem is the absolute that is non-existence. Not a relative feature of some thing not existing in some place in space-time. But the domain, dimension or whatever of an absolute non-existence. No space, no time, none of the eleven dimensions. Pure non-existence.

With Omniscience requiring upon Itself to be Omnipresent to be a pure and true-to-the-definition Infinite, existence must also be inside of absolute non-existence.

Now you know why the Singularity exists, then space and time, then all the contents within space and time.

Once we talk or think about nothing as a subject, it immediately becomes something.

Well that's the million dollar question;

"How did everything get here?"

Religious people will tell you that everything was created from some sort of deity. Although the common question that will arise is "Well, where did the deity come from?" And if something were to come from nothing, then how could something come from nothing, then turn around and create something from nothing?Claiming god(s) created everything just makes the concept of everything came from nothing even more confusing and complicated, rather than just saying everything simply came from nothing.

It's obvious everything came from nothing, since matter how to come into being somehow. Personally I don't really have a good answer for that. It's one of those things that is very hard to answer. And it may even be impossible to find out. Though I do have to say it is interesting thinking about it. I usually think about that kind of stuff pretty often.

Lingweenie
Well that's the million dollar question;

"How did everything get here?"

Religious people will tell you that everything was created from some sort of deity. Although the common question that will arise is "Well, where did the deity come from?" And if something were to come from nothing, then how could something come from nothing, then turn around and create something from nothing?Claiming god(s) created everything just makes the concept of everything came from nothing even more confusing and complicated, rather than just saying everything simply came from nothing.

It's obvious everything came from nothing, since matter how to come into being somehow. Personally I don't really have a good answer for that. It's one of those things that is very hard to answer. And it may even be impossible to find out. Though I do have to say it is interesting thinking about it. I usually think about that kind of stuff pretty often.

If you know some science, you know that nature 'wants' to be in
a minimum energy state. That's the 2nd law of thermodynamics
there in action.

Well I've noticed that for 'everything to exist, every possibility, every outcome,
every world' to exist 'up front' but at a minimum energy state, is over all the
endless eternities the 'lowest energy state possible'.

Thus 'everything' in a mostly unexpressed state is in fact more logical than
'nothing'... and close to being logically equivalent..

In physics, it's known that virtual particles erupt from 'nothing', exist
for a microsecond, then become 'nothing again'. This is how it is with
universes.. if you borrow from peter to pay paul, it's ok, so long as
you pay back the loan.. this is Nature.. it all makes perfect sense..

Everything exists in potential state.. and one thing at a time exists
then pays back.. then the next exists.. it all equals out to "zero".

That's my observation. That and 2 dollars won't buy you a Starbucks.
Well maybe a small brewed coffee.

KPB

reply to post by KellyPrettyBear


that payback theory reminds me of waking up and sleeping.

peace.

dodol
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

that payback theory reminds me of waking up and sleeping.

peace.

Precisely. I think that a variety of world systems have used
that metaphor.

KPB

reply to post by Wang Tang


Thanks for this thread. I utterly enjoyed reading so much about absolutely nothing.

In the second book of Enoch , ‘God’ tells Enoch that everything is created from non-being and visible thing are created from the invisible. Is it thus possible that nothingness could be somethingness . It is still a great mystery how mass appeared in the universe, and according to my understanding nobody can still explain how mass came into being. As I don’t believe in the expanding universe, I believe that the mass in the universe is constant.

That means that nothingness now is exhausted. It has once existed in it’s pure form , but does not exist anymore. What we have now, is pretty much all there ever going to be, and that nothing more will ever be added. All thing mass can do now is changing forms.

That means that the nothingness that once existed , now have become somethingness and the process cannot be reversed. Perhaps nothingness cannot be expressed mathematically at all? After all zero does not indicate that it’s value represent nothing, but rather that (the something that it represents) contains nothing , is empty or contains no data.

What is for instance (in a computer) the difference between a space and a zero? They both take up space in a computer , but they somehow both represent and signals some form of nothingness. One still needs space (something) in a computer In order to express some sort of nothingness.

But now I have nothing more to add. Nothingness is really something, isn't it?

Thanks again. I would love if you could write some more about this.

reply to post by helius


Thank you for your kind words, but at the moment I'm afraid I have nothing more to offer on this subject. Thinking so much about nothing is making my head spin

I call it the Void, yet naming even that just turned it into Something. Names like Nothingness, Void, Energy, Oneness, Basicly are the same, Nothing! People spend most of their Lives Looking for Nothing when it is right there in front of them. And trying to understand it all will not help you Living Life anyway.

I for one see the difference though, here in the West we learned to take from nothingness and not to give back. Explains why the US is broke. Or one should say, I God We Trust, only never really Trusted Him in the first place. Where in the eastern world, most are Taught to Give Back to Nothingness, like it is a Being.

Take a Black Hole, most claim it comsumes Everything, yet how would one actually know this to be true? Maybe it Takes Everything and returns it back to Nothingness in order to Become Something again. Here some would place this into the God group, and again placing a name on something that is Nothing just to have a name for understanding.

Or the Thought that becomes Action, if you have lived many lifetimes, that though could have been carried over and now is the Action. Its okay to ponder all of this, most seem it is their duty to Find the Answer and get lost enjoying their Lives.

Yet I am crazy. Knowing this, I find that the Hole most claim that is In their Heart IS the Nothingness saying Hello? Remember Me?

Peace

Something can not come from nothing, meaning this "something" (life) must have always existed.

Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, everything in the universe is made up of energy in one form or another meaning the universe could never have been created nor can it be destroyed. We have all existed in one form or another for forever already and will continue to exist in one form or another for forever still.

We see the infinite every day, we are the infinite.

ETA: To clarify, nothing has never existed, it is impossible for nothing to exist because existence itself implies "something". If energy cannot be created as science states, energy (something) never came from nothing but has always existed in one form or another. Our universe in its current state may just be its current form.

Our big bang doesn't have to be the first one, it could just be one within a line of an infinite number of big bangs that happen over and over and over for eternity.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Yup.

Logically speaking it's the only way to avoid the logical error
of infinite regression.

KPB

KellyPrettyBear

Lingweenie
Well that's the million dollar question;

"How did everything get here?"

Religious people will tell you that everything was created from some sort of deity. Although the common question that will arise is "Well, where did the deity come from?" And if something were to come from nothing, then how could something come from nothing, then turn around and create something from nothing?Claiming god(s) created everything just makes the concept of everything came from nothing even more confusing and complicated, rather than just saying everything simply came from nothing.

It's obvious everything came from nothing, since matter how to come into being somehow. Personally I don't really have a good answer for that. It's one of those things that is very hard to answer. And it may even be impossible to find out. Though I do have to say it is interesting thinking about it. I usually think about that kind of stuff pretty often.

If you know some science, you know that nature 'wants' to be in
a minimum energy state. That's the 2nd law of thermodynamics
there in action.

Well I've noticed that for 'everything to exist, every possibility, every outcome,
every world' to exist 'up front' but at a minimum energy state, is over all the
endless eternities the 'lowest energy state possible'.

Thus 'everything' in a mostly unexpressed state is in fact more logical than
'nothing'... and close to being logically equivalent..

In physics, it's known that virtual particles erupt from 'nothing', exist
for a microsecond, then become 'nothing again'. This is how it is with
universes.. if you borrow from peter to pay paul, it's ok, so long as
you pay back the loan.. this is Nature.. it all makes perfect sense..

Everything exists in potential state.. and one thing at a time exists
then pays back.. then the next exists.. it all equals out to "zero".

That's my observation. That and 2 dollars won't buy you a Starbucks.
Well maybe a small brewed coffee.

KPB

Interesting insight. +1

reply to post by infoseeker26754


Another great post. Thanks a lot.

Seeing nothingness from your point of view is refreshing and makes oneself question mankind’s everlasting and enormous appetite for something.

Whoever defined nothingness as something negative is perhaps to blame , because whenever having nothing became something negative, everyone wants something. People only need some basic things in order to survive, but as long as the system around us is designed for everyone to chase something (all the time), the system will do whatever it takes to trick people into chasing for more.

Whenever I am on the road driving my car I always keeps wondering why there always are so much traffic . People do not stay at home when they finish work. Instead they are out looking for something. It’s become an obsession. Most of what we chase and buy are stuff we actually don’t need, but even this don’t stop people from wanting more. The system we have all become a part of has made us into some kind of slaves. If we borrow money from the system in order to get more ‘something’, they own us for life. The people behind the system, sais the system will break down if people stops this everlasting chasing for ‘something’, and if this happens everybody will get nothing eventually. But. Would this actually be a bad thing? Perhaps not. We will all eventually lose something, but we will all gain something too, because this way we will all get our lives back.

I am myself living in Asia. This part of Asia used to be poor, and people was used to having nothing. There existed little competition, because everybody shared the fate of having nothing and thus they seemed happy , content and innocent. Thats probably how the east kept their traditions with meditation. It was a tool to find ways to accept living with nothing. Today Asia, has changed. I do not see much difference from what’s it like in the west. They have adopted our culture, and now most Asians are chasing for something just like we do. It’s rapidly becoming worse.

I might perhaps receive some angry comments for this, but I say it anyway, because i hope the global economic system that has enslaved the world eventually breaks down entirely. When it does, it really hope mankind ceases the golden opportunity this gives , and eventually establish a better system.

Wang Tang
What are the implications of our system of science of logic being based on a faulty conception of Nothingness? It removes one of the central pillars of science and logic. It severely limits the scope of our future thoughts and discoveries. It lends itself to closed-mindedness and ignorance in our culture and philosophy. It could partially account for our inability to unify Quantum Physics and Special Relativity into a Unified Theory of Physics, as Quantum Physics is based on a different conception of Nothingness than Special Relativity is.

Nothing and Something cannot exist without each other, therefore they had to "arise mutually"--something that the concept of linear causation can never reconcile. This has led me to take a more scientific (critical) approach to science itself, and in so doing I've found that science isn't all it's cracked up to be after all. It's wholly unnecessary for human happiness, and may be doing more harm to us and our planet than good.

Take an honest look around. Is this really what we're supposed to be doing here? If not, we need to seriously examine the culturally ingrained philosophies that got us here (science, economics, etc.) and consider whether they're worth continuing or not. One way or another, the unfortunate consequences of these philosophies (and their timely end) are unavoidable.

helius
reply to post by infoseeker26754

 

Another great post. Thanks a lot.

Seeing nothingness from your point of view is refreshing and makes oneself question mankind’s everlasting and enormous appetite for something.

Whoever defined nothingness as something negative is perhaps to blame , because whenever having nothing became something negative, everyone wants something. People only need some basic things in order to survive, but as long as the system around us is designed for everyone to chase something (all the time), the system will do whatever it takes to trick people into chasing for more.

Whenever I am on the road driving my car I always keeps wondering why there always are so much traffic . People do not stay at home when they finish work. Instead they are out looking for something. It’s become an obsession. Most of what we chase and buy are stuff we actually don’t need, but even this don’t stop people from wanting more. The system we have all become a part of has made us into some kind of slaves. If we borrow money from the system in order to get more ‘something’, they own us for life. The people behind the system, sais the system will break down if people stops this everlasting chasing for ‘something’, and if this happens everybody will get nothing eventually. But. Would this actually be a bad thing? Perhaps not. We will all eventually lose something, but we will all gain something too, because this way we will all get our lives back.

I am myself living in Asia. This part of Asia used to be poor, and people was used to having nothing. There existed little competition, because everybody shared the fate of having nothing and thus they seemed happy , content and innocent. Thats probably how the east kept their traditions with meditation. It was a tool to find ways to accept living with nothing. Today Asia, has changed. I do not see much difference from what’s it like in the west. They have adopted our culture, and now most Asians are chasing for something just like we do. It’s rapidly becoming worse.

I might perhaps receive some angry comments for this, but I say it anyway, because i hope the global economic system that has enslaved the world eventually breaks down entirely. When it does, it really hope mankind ceases the golden opportunity this gives , and eventually establish a better system.

Sounds about right! Here in the US its even worst! Take a Big Storm, say ice and snow, 2/4 ft of it and low and behold People are actually Leaving the house! Why? Since their life is based on Credit, everything they own is on Credit, you miss one payment, it's Gone!

So off to work they go, risking their lives and others just to be at work to have silly crap that has no actually bearing on Life! But I need a home! 5 bedrooms and only 2 people? Really! Each of us has to have a new Car, cell phones and the like just to keep our job! One would think if a job requires you to have a phone. Should they at least pay for it?

Nothing does not mean having nothing, except for crap you do not need! Take Gold, if all crap came to the end, would you rather have Gold or toilet paper? We do not actually talk to people here in the US, texting; which some have killed others or themselves while driving. You pay so much on insurance to cover almost anything, yet go make a claim and by the time it get to receiving anything, you luckie to have duck tape to fix anything!

I seem to drive people crazy! Angry comments or none really! Yet if I wake just one into seeing another point of Being, it is worth more then Gold itself! Really can not say its the Truth, only for me as I see it. Shame people just can't get along anymore and have a beer and hang out. People now a days are blowing Fuses left and right over what? Things!

Nothing it would seem is something to place value on. It is something to mold, create, and make new again. Kinda like China, who buys all of our trash and sorts it all out for penny and resells it back to everyone for a price! They took the nothing, spent time and turned it into something. Here people consider a job pay at $10 an hr as in insult! Do they not know most others outside of the us make that for the Whole day and still have something to show for it!

Slaves, zombies and the like! It is pre programed into everything since childhood, and if that will not work, pills or your just another nut floating around, no need to pay attention. Yet, as more and more noticed this Nothingness, first the Truth comes. Most turn the other way, next comes the fall. What you thought you know starts to be stripped from you, slowly if you do the work, painfully if Life has to do it for you.

Next comes the Nut phase. You start thinking your going nuts! People start to drop like flys out of your life! Some stay and say I wish you were your OLD self again, or I don't like who you become anymore. So you sit with that nothingness and go, What did I do wrong? After awhile them Voices come into play!

Always listen to them! You will have many at first, fighting for power yet others long forgotten that will tell you what you did wrong or what you need to do. After awhile most of the voices drop away too! Now it is your Being talking. Still have 3/5 voices so many aspects of myself helping me out how I see it anyway.

If you make it to this, now Time has its play on you! Your either 2 months ahead or behind; days seem to pass so fast you have no idea what day it is! By then the voices should have said to Allow things to happen and pay attention! Not only do you see one side but many sides sometimes! By now, not only are you the nut that has falling but the Tree that made the nut in the first place!

Now the God ideas, Tao, however one wants to place God really. Crazy since you find that both God and Satan are both the same. You just rate things as good and evil and give it a name for your mind to at least Think it knows something. New ideas come into play, Pop and there you go! Out of Nowhere comes; Offer your Soul for Life to Continue. Boy you should have seen the comments on that! My Being just shakes thinking how most see this as some Evil thing.

After that I think and Feel somehow it was a test or the Nothing had to ask if I would do it! Maybe that was the POP to break my understanding of how things Are Not! I do not know what Peace is, I just Feel it somehow. It is strange though.
I still would rather have Nothing and have it all vs. having it all and nothing.

Yet since I am Human. I miss having others of like mindedness. Seems to be a lack thereof. Face to face, now I know what they mean on the Eyes are the doorway to the Soul. Human contact in person, somehow became lost since computer came into being. Yet there are a few, at least using a computer lets me know of this is true.

Peace