And You Thought We Were Nuts? This Is The Dangers Of Explaining The Bible Without Discernment

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

charles1952
reply to post by Rex282

 

...and is Buleckistan, a 'real place' Charles1952?

Å99

That's the point Charles1952 was making. If someone says "Let's go there" and if you don't know already, and you assume it does just because someone tells you, and you go to the travel agency to book your flight and they laugh at you because the place doesn't exist, then probably you should have learned that first, instead of the hard way.

BTW, have you ever been snipe hunting?

edit on 11/14/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Do you really think so WII?

Drill down a little further...

Å99

With an oil drill or a dental drill?

WarminIndy: "Let's go to Paris"

A99: "Oh yeah, I can't wait to see the Louvre"

WarminIndy : "The Louvre is in Paris, Texas?"

Roadtrip!!! Would you care to accompany me to Paris?

reply to post by Rex282

Dear Rex282,

Thank you very much. I think I understand more clearly and I am very grateful for your elaboration of your earlier post. That's how I learn.

We may be in full agreement, I'm not entirely sure, but we're close enough for my taste. I agree that the Bible has a role and Revelation (or experience) has a role. We may only have a slight difference on how much emphasis we give to each.

I say this not to start an argument, but simply to expand my remarks as you so kindly did. I see the Bible as the written record of other peoples' experiences with God. People who had the same language, culture, and background as Jesus. Further they saw Him directly, face to face, and their writings have been tested over the centuries. How could I not find that valuable?

Further, I can't be completely certain that any experience I might have, no matter how wonderful, comes from God. Sure, they almost always do, but how can I be certain? I make mistakes and can be fooled. I use the Bible as a double check that I'm still seeing the right path (following it is another question).

But as I say, our differences might be very slight. We can't tell what's in each other's heart, although we know better than when we started. Thank you.

With respect,
Charles1952

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

charles1952
reply to post by Rex282

 

...and is Buleckistan, a 'real place' Charles1952?

Å99

That's the point Charles1952 was making. If someone says "Let's go there" and if you don't know already, and you assume it does just because someone tells you, and you go to the travel agency to book your flight and they laugh at you because the place doesn't exist, then probably you should have learned that first, instead of the hard way.

BTW, have you ever been snipe hunting?

edit on 11/14/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Do you really think so WII?

Drill down a little further...

Å99

With an oil drill or a dental drill?

WarminIndy: "Let's go to Paris"

A99: "Oh yeah, I can't wait to see the Louvre"

WarminIndy : "The Louvre is in Paris, Texas?"

Roadtrip!!! Would you care to accompany me to Paris?

Hahahaha nice!

But, the point I was making was very simple, and followed from my previous posts...you might have thought 'discernment' was gonna come from more drilling...I opened the door to give you a choice...and you walked through...

What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)...the follow-up reply of Charles to Rex is written in a completely different way...and didn't include the reference to the 'real thing'...

...that's our consensus, right there...

Å99

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

charles1952
reply to post by Rex282

 

...and is Buleckistan, a 'real place' Charles1952?

Å99

That's the point Charles1952 was making. If someone says "Let's go there" and if you don't know already, and you assume it does just because someone tells you, and you go to the travel agency to book your flight and they laugh at you because the place doesn't exist, then probably you should have learned that first, instead of the hard way.

BTW, have you ever been snipe hunting?

edit on 11/14/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Do you really think so WII?

Drill down a little further...

Å99

With an oil drill or a dental drill?

WarminIndy: "Let's go to Paris"

A99: "Oh yeah, I can't wait to see the Louvre"

WarminIndy : "The Louvre is in Paris, Texas?"

Roadtrip!!! Would you care to accompany me to Paris?

Hahahaha nice!

But, the point I was making was very simple, and followed from my previous posts...you might have thought 'discernment' was gonna come from more drilling...I opened the door to give you a choice...and you walked through...

What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)...the follow-up reply of Charles to Rex is written in a completely different way...and didn't include the reference to the 'real thing'...

...that's our consensus, right there...

Å99

Uh huh???

Well, since I kind of already knew what you were trying to do, that's why I asked which drill. And since you didn't answer which drill, then I made you think it was an oil well that I was talking about, and since I didn't choose either drill, you sort of did, then perhaps your statement is your answer to you?

I didn't drill, now did I? But I made you think I did, because at the end, I edited and removed

WarminIndy, trickster extraordinaire.

Were we to drill for oil or remove plaque? Two different drills, but I would think it would be more painful for a power drill on your teeth.

Black and Decker will remove teeth, if you drill with that....so let's consider again, which drill did you visualize?

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

charles1952
reply to post by Rex282

 

...and is Buleckistan, a 'real place' Charles1952?

Å99

That's the point Charles1952 was making. If someone says "Let's go there" and if you don't know already, and you assume it does just because someone tells you, and you go to the travel agency to book your flight and they laugh at you because the place doesn't exist, then probably you should have learned that first, instead of the hard way.

BTW, have you ever been snipe hunting?

edit on 11/14/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Do you really think so WII?

Drill down a little further...

Å99

With an oil drill or a dental drill?

WarminIndy: "Let's go to Paris"

A99: "Oh yeah, I can't wait to see the Louvre"

WarminIndy : "The Louvre is in Paris, Texas?"

Roadtrip!!! Would you care to accompany me to Paris?

Hahahaha nice!

But, the point I was making was very simple, and followed from my previous posts...you might have thought 'discernment' was gonna come from more drilling...I opened the door to give you a choice...and you walked through...

What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)...the follow-up reply of Charles to Rex is written in a completely different way...and didn't include the reference to the 'real thing'...

...that's our consensus, right there...

Å99

Uh huh???

Well, since I kind of already knew what you were trying to do, that's why I asked which drill. And since you didn't answer which drill, then I made you think it was an oil well that I was talking about, and since I didn't choose either drill, you sort of did, then perhaps your statement is your answer to you?

I didn't drill, now did I? But I made you think I did, because at the end, I edited and removed

WarminIndy, trickster extraordinaire.

Were we to drill for oil or remove plaque? Two different drills, but I would think it would be more painful for a power drill on your teeth.

Black and Decker will remove teeth, if you drill with that....so let's consider again, which drill did you visualize?

"What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)" Quote Å99

'Which drill' was never a thought that entered my mind WII - just to make that clear...

I rest my case your honor...

charles -> rex, has illustrated the 'consensus' by correcting the language...it is humble, and I have no problem with it, because of its humility...I will rest on that same level...and always defer to humility...it is a most admirable trait...imho...

Keeping things stupidly simple (kiss) can often be the best route...discernment brings up questions of intelligence, and reasons for interprative dance...when really, the joy of dancing is 'found' by just doing it, because while we're all sitting around yada yada-ing about it, we're not doing it...

Å99

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

charles1952
reply to post by Rex282

 

...and is Buleckistan, a 'real place' Charles1952?

Å99

That's the point Charles1952 was making. If someone says "Let's go there" and if you don't know already, and you assume it does just because someone tells you, and you go to the travel agency to book your flight and they laugh at you because the place doesn't exist, then probably you should have learned that first, instead of the hard way.

BTW, have you ever been snipe hunting?

edit on 11/14/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Do you really think so WII?

Drill down a little further...

Å99

With an oil drill or a dental drill?

WarminIndy: "Let's go to Paris"

A99: "Oh yeah, I can't wait to see the Louvre"

WarminIndy : "The Louvre is in Paris, Texas?"

Roadtrip!!! Would you care to accompany me to Paris?

Hahahaha nice!

But, the point I was making was very simple, and followed from my previous posts...you might have thought 'discernment' was gonna come from more drilling...I opened the door to give you a choice...and you walked through...

What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)...the follow-up reply of Charles to Rex is written in a completely different way...and didn't include the reference to the 'real thing'...

...that's our consensus, right there...

Å99

Uh huh???

Well, since I kind of already knew what you were trying to do, that's why I asked which drill. And since you didn't answer which drill, then I made you think it was an oil well that I was talking about, and since I didn't choose either drill, you sort of did, then perhaps your statement is your answer to you?

I didn't drill, now did I? But I made you think I did, because at the end, I edited and removed

WarminIndy, trickster extraordinaire.

Were we to drill for oil or remove plaque? Two different drills, but I would think it would be more painful for a power drill on your teeth.

Black and Decker will remove teeth, if you drill with that....so let's consider again, which drill did you visualize?

"What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)" Quote Å99

'Which drill' was never a thought that entered my mind WII - just to make that clear...

I rest my case your honor...

charles -> rex, has illustrated the 'consensus' by correcting the language...it is humble, and I have no problem with it, because of its humility...I will rest on that same level...and always defer to humility...it is a most admirable trait...imho...

Keeping things stupidly simple (kiss) can often be the best route...discernment brings up questions of intelligence, and reasons for interprative dance...when really, the joy of dancing is 'found' by just doing it, because while we're all sitting around yada yada-ing about it, we're not doing it...

Å99

I will agree, Charles does say things very well.

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

WarminIndy

akushla99

charles1952
reply to post by Rex282

 

...and is Buleckistan, a 'real place' Charles1952?

Å99

That's the point Charles1952 was making. If someone says "Let's go there" and if you don't know already, and you assume it does just because someone tells you, and you go to the travel agency to book your flight and they laugh at you because the place doesn't exist, then probably you should have learned that first, instead of the hard way.

BTW, have you ever been snipe hunting?

edit on 11/14/2013 by WarminIndy because: (no reason given)

Do you really think so WII?

Drill down a little further...

Å99

With an oil drill or a dental drill?

WarminIndy: "Let's go to Paris"

A99: "Oh yeah, I can't wait to see the Louvre"

WarminIndy : "The Louvre is in Paris, Texas?"

Roadtrip!!! Would you care to accompany me to Paris?

Hahahaha nice!

But, the point I was making was very simple, and followed from my previous posts...you might have thought 'discernment' was gonna come from more drilling...I opened the door to give you a choice...and you walked through...

What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)...the follow-up reply of Charles to Rex is written in a completely different way...and didn't include the reference to the 'real thing'...

...that's our consensus, right there...

Å99

Uh huh???

Well, since I kind of already knew what you were trying to do, that's why I asked which drill. And since you didn't answer which drill, then I made you think it was an oil well that I was talking about, and since I didn't choose either drill, you sort of did, then perhaps your statement is your answer to you?

I didn't drill, now did I? But I made you think I did, because at the end, I edited and removed

WarminIndy, trickster extraordinaire.

Were we to drill for oil or remove plaque? Two different drills, but I would think it would be more painful for a power drill on your teeth.

Black and Decker will remove teeth, if you drill with that....so let's consider again, which drill did you visualize?

"What could be found, was on the surface (no drilling necessary)" Quote Å99

'Which drill' was never a thought that entered my mind WII - just to make that clear...

I rest my case your honor...

charles -> rex, has illustrated the 'consensus' by correcting the language...it is humble, and I have no problem with it, because of its humility...I will rest on that same level...and always defer to humility...it is a most admirable trait...imho...

Keeping things stupidly simple (kiss) can often be the best route...discernment brings up questions of intelligence, and reasons for interprative dance...when really, the joy of dancing is 'found' by just doing it, because while we're all sitting around yada yada-ing about it, we're not doing it...

Å99

I will agree, Charles does say things very well.

...especially the second time around

Å99

akushla99


Keeping things stupidly simple (kiss) can often be the best route...discernment brings up questions of intelligence, and reasons for interprative dance...when really, the joy of dancing is 'found' by just doing it, because while we're all sitting around yada yada-ing about it, we're not doing it...

Å99

A99

that's the real bottom line isn't it.If there is a God (and there is) God is not requiring anyone to be a theologian to "know' God(quite the opposite).K.I.S.S works because it is futility to try to study the infinite unknowable.Only God can reveal it.That's...just how it works every... method is in vain.That's a brilliant concept.You can't know anything until you don't think about it(and no I don't mean meditation).When "I" hear it's quite distinctive..but not mystical and I don't refer to a book to check.I call that do being...minus the smoke.

reply to post by akushla99

Dear akushla99,

You mean I'm not perfect every time? What, do I have to pay you more to get slavish flattery and obedience? (Where is the laughing smiley when you need it?)

Actually, thanks. You've heard that speakers are supposed to know their audience. Jesus did, His parables were powerful and conveyed exactly what He wanted to say. He used exactly the right examples and illustrtions. The more I know about the Guy, the easier it is to believe in His divinity.

I have no clue who the audience is, so I guess. Quite often I guess wrong. I'm really grateful to the ATSers who say, "What in blue Hades are you talking about?" (Sometimes, I'm not so sure myself.)

With respect,
Charles1952

charles1952
reply to post by akushla99

 

Dear akushla99,

You mean I'm not perfect every time? What, do I have to pay you more to get slavish flattery and obedience? (Where is the laughing smiley when you need it?)

Actually, thanks. You've heard that speakers are supposed to know their audience. Jesus did, His parables were powerful and conveyed exactly what He wanted to say. He used exactly the right examples and illustrtions. The more I know about the Guy, the easier it is to believe in His divinity.

I have no clue who the audience is, so I guess. Quite often I guess wrong. I'm really grateful to the ATSers who say, "What in blue Hades are you talking about?" (Sometimes, I'm not so sure myself.)

With respect,
Charles1952

Dear Charles1952

I'm not referring to a perfection of any sort...my reference is in the idiomatic structure...your second response (which I praised) did not contain that idiomatic structure...it is a glaring and wholly apparent oversight/undersight...whichever you prefer, or deign to recognise...and on the assumption that neither you nor I, is 14years old...and that we both have a wealth of experience...(mine in linguistics)...it would be a little silly of me to not point these things out...as per, the title of the OP, with regards to 'discernment'...I'm sure you understand

With RESPECT
Å99

Rex282

akushla99


Keeping things stupidly simple (kiss) can often be the best route...discernment brings up questions of intelligence, and reasons for interprative dance...when really, the joy of dancing is 'found' by just doing it, because while we're all sitting around yada yada-ing about it, we're not doing it...

Å99

A99

that's the real bottom line isn't it.If there is a God (and there is) God is not requiring anyone to be a theologian to "know' God(quite the opposite).K.I.S.S works because it is futility to try to study the infinite unknowable.Only God can reveal it.That's...just how it works every... method is in vain.That's a brilliant concept.You can't know anything until you don't think about it(and no I don't mean meditation).When "I" hear it's quite distinctive..but not mystical and I don't refer to a book to check.I call that do being...minus the smoke.

Yep...it is the bottom line...cannot disagree with anything you have posted above...but then, I might just be agreeing with an idea that resonates with me

Å99

So I am curious what you are trying to say then is an agreed consensus of the interpretation creates the validity and reality of biblical stories?

I am pretty sure that is what you are saying and yet the Bible clearly has parables, folklore, myths and misconceptions. But whatever the majority (always a group of men powerful men) agrees on must therefore be the truth?

abeverage
So I am curious what you are trying to say then is an agreed consensus of the interpretation creates the validity and reality of biblical stories?

I am pretty sure that is what you are saying and yet the Bible clearly has parables, folklore, myths and misconceptions. But whatever the majority (always a group of men powerful men) agrees on must therefore be the truth?

edit on 19-11-2013 by abeverage because: of clarification

...(by dent of its sequence)...

Notwithstanding the propensity for Unit to (in some pursuits) gather 'yes' around them...the machinery that interprets (validates and real-ises) is contained within the same resonating frame...harmonics will determine what company you keep...conscious/unconscious phase-shifting will create consensus (as in, agree to agree, agree to disagree)...this happens on levels that are little understood...

One Unit, can create a god or a demon that asks them to do anything for them...literature can be found dating back to who knows when, to 'validate' whatever unit likes to think 'agrees'...thats the nature of the mechanism; and it's a perpetual motion machine...

Pile generations upon generations of this on top of this, to a point where ideas become soild fact (essentially iconography of the collective Yes')...and we see a situation where the solid state confirms (backwards) what idea proposes/posits/'determines'...circular motion of the perpetual motion machine type...

Truth is a word that is thrown around, much like love...that can have no real 'consensus', as experientially, we operate within a format that caters to both situations simultaneously (it's 'built' that way)...however, commonality exists in the unlikeliest of places of the brain-space...

(apologies if I have answered, out of line)

Å99

abeverage
So I am curious what you are trying to say then is an agreed consensus of the interpretation creates the validity and reality of biblical stories?

I am pretty sure that is what you are saying and yet the Bible clearly has parables, folklore, myths and misconceptions. But whatever the majority (always a group of men powerful men) agrees on must therefore be the truth?

edit on 19-11-2013 by abeverage because: of clarification

@abeverage

You just hit the main point. I think that we should really question people when we know already the type of person they are. If they already present themselves as being a wicked person, which is why I posted the theology of the man in question, then you have to counter that against their already prevailing worldview.

If, within their worldview, they have already justified doing evil things, then interpreting scripture is not leading them to truth, but a manipulation to keep that worldview justified.

In Phillip Garrido's worldview, any kind of sexual violence, with heavy drug use, was justified for him, and he continues to find justification in the Bible. So he did this by interpreting it for his own benefit.

Because in all of his rambling, nothing was said "I did wrong".

reply to post by WarminIndy


Having not the time to read through the entire thread, I am further curious as to your stance then.

If you are pro-Christian what is your intent by showing how interpretation is confirmation biased given the facts that bible was cobbled together by groups of elite religious leaders and heads of state with their own agenda.

If Anti-Christian why use an extreme case like a killer to make the point of confirmation bias unless it is an attack and you are likening Christian followers to rantings of insane murdering madmen?

abeverage
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Having not the time to read through the entire thread, I am further curious as to your stance then.

If you are pro-Christian what is your intent by showing how interpretation is confirmation biased given the facts that bible was cobbled together by groups of elite religious leaders and heads of state with their own agenda.

If Anti-Christian why use an extreme case like a killer to make the point of confirmation bias unless it is an attack and you are likening Christian followers to rantings of insane murdering madmen?

I am pro-Christian, and I am a Christian. The purpose in this was showing people that just because an interpretation of the Bible sounds good, but disregarding the discernment that one must have, can lead to destructive ends.

Yes, when religious leaders have no discernment themselves, and are nothing more than talking heads that can sway people's opinions and worldviews, then it leads to destructive ends.

The old adage is, "Give an idiot a gun...".

reply to post by WarminIndy


Do you believe in literal interpretation of the Bible? Do you find that you yourself create confirmation bias with personal inspection and study or agreeing with studied (ministers/priest...what have you) who preach the Bible?

abeverage
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Do you believe in literal interpretation of the Bible? Do you find that you yourself create confirmation bias with personal inspection and study or agreeing with studied (ministers/priest...what have you) who preach the Bible?

As you don't know me, I believe in the spiritual and natural of the Bible.

I don't really study what other preachers or ministers say, because most of that is geared toward one doctrinal creed. All theology schools are like that.

As I don't hold to a church creed, I can take a very objective view of the Bible, however I don't just believe what a preacher tells me. But, I can go to other Christians and ask them their opinion on a verse and study it, but I also weigh out other verses that may seem to contradict my position. So then I ask God what it means. Sometimes it takes years to get the answer.

But I am not ever like "what the majority says, I will go along with it". I also look at the linguistic reference and historical and cultural references as well. I invest a lot of time into knowing what my Bible actually says beyond just the letters on the page. And that's what discernment is about, judging it against other scripture, who the speaker was, who the audience was, without inserting a tenet or creed. So I suppose context carries a lot of what I am trying to derive from it.

And I have a lot of conversations with God, if I don't understand something, He is gracious to show me where I may be wrong or right. I am not ashamed to say that I don't know everything and I don't understand everything. But if my heart is right in the first place, with no agenda, I want to know what the Bible says to me. If I put myself in the position of God, then only I can give myself interpretation. And then where's the accountability if I get it wrong?

Even the majority can drink the kool-aid together. There were some who didn't, and escaped from Jim Jones' compound after it was too late. They didn't study it for themselves and didn't use discernment that he was a maniac.

WarminIndy

RatoAstuto
reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Wow, that was one of the most brilliant and IMO useful interpretations of the bible I have ever heard. And no, I do not believe this interpretation is tainted just because the interpreter was a tainted human being. To believe such would be an utterly small minded and arrogant stance. Hitler may have been the leading force behind making the Autobahn a success , which thus lead the US to replicate it with our interstate highway system, but that doesn't mean that hitting the on ramp makes you a supporter of national socialism.

edit on 12-11-2013 by RatoAstuto because: (no reason given)

And thus is how cults are born. Someone says something pretty, but pretty wrong, and someone believes it just a little bit, then something more wrong is said, until the follower has drunk the purple kool-aid and fell to sleep never to wake up again, still hoping for the mothership to take them home, or vultures to eat them up in a jungle.

Good point and I agree that discernment is critical when interpreting bible versus but since we are in the 21st century we no longer need to read the KJV (old English) version do we? People who use the KJV bible often misquote or misunderstand the written word due to not understanding the King's English.

There are many reputable bibles today written in modern English that clears up the often misquoted versus. You just have to spend a little money. Some have even Greek and Hebrew terminology, definitions with proper word pronounciations included to better help those to understand. I always recommend a bible study that has mature Christians sitting in to assist.

Fraudfinder

reply to post by WarminIndy

 

Good point and I agree that discernment is critical when interpreting bible versus but since we are in the 21st century we no longer need to read the KJV (old English) version do we? People who use the KJV bible often misquote or misunderstand the written word due to not understanding the King's English.

There are many reputable bibles today written in modern English that clears up the often misquoted versus. You just have to spend a little money. Some have even Greek and Hebrew terminology, definitions with proper word pronounciations included to better help those to understand. I always recommend a bible study that has mature Christians sitting in to assist.

I have always read the KJV, and probably because I understand the language of it. I also understand Shakespeare as well.

My grandmother was an old Appalachian Kentucky briar-hopper, and her accent and words I grew up hearing, so I appreciate the pace and tone of the King's English. It may not be anymore like that, but I can trace through my grandmother's accent where her family came from. Even up until the 1980s, older people were still speaking that way.

This is the Bible her family carried from England and what I had heard all my life from. She even had an old KJV with the Apocrypha. That has been removed from the KJV, which is very sad to me.