Elephants in Ancient America

aorAki

grey580
Those are the only two possibilities.

or they could be Tapir, or giant anteaters (referencing your image).
Certainly what you proposed are not the only two possibilities!

Possibly also stylistic representations of large jungle snakes.

P.S. -- Atlantis had elephants. Remnants of pre-Ice Age mammoths/mastondons?

reply to post by aorAki


I thought of that too.

A tapier? length of the nose seems to be a bit longer than a tapir. Plus there's what seems to be tusk markings on the side there.

Giant Ant Eater? The skull is the wrong shape. though long enough.

As well that there seems to be a representation of tusks and the wrinkles that elephants have on their noses.



Both missing from Tapirs and ant eaters.

reply to post by grey580


They could have seen one on the internet back then

reply to post by rickymouse


Actually there could be a third even stranger option.

A Gomphothere



There seems to be some evidence that suggest this animal wasn't extinct some 1.8 million years ago like they thought it was.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I highly doubt they would be Tapirs or Anteaters. The first representation actually shows some scale to the size of the mastodon.

Here's a link to a picture of what a Mastodon may have actually looked like.


doubtfulnews.com...


Very similar to an elephant, yes??

Look, an elephant.
Can not be, doesn't fit into our historical paradigm. Must be a tapir... (?)

... What happened to logic, intellect and self-respect, dear science?
Or an unprejudiced mind for that matter?

reply to post by Oannes


There is very little evidence that the African origin (beyond that is where Homo sapiens came from) is correct. Genetic studies of american native populations show that any sub-Saharan African component is from the slave trade, or newer.

Picollo30
i was looking through some old mayan and olmec pics and i found this and i dont know what to say, this is amazing if real. thought the south american civilizations were completely ignorant of what an elephant was, yet there's this:





note the elephant in the bottom right next to the pyramid



also this one fron Equador show a distinct elephant on the right


can it be that the olmec and mayans knew of the existence of these animals through the contact with other cultures (india maybe, or a common link like the fabled atlantis) or did elephants roamed ancient south america?

I have posted on this topic before, but no one seems to remember the correct answer.

The elephant was a type known as Cuvieronius. It's believed to have gone extinct around 10,000 BC. This is a very important date in Earth's "pre-history." Bauval's calculations show that the Sphinx (originally a crouching Lion) was aligned to face the constellation Leo (Lion) rising on the horizon around 10,500 BC. According to Edgar Cayce, Atlantis sank around 10,000 BC. A very interesting time.

reply to post by Picollo30


My post did not post (?) for whatever reason.

The elephant like creature is called a Cuvieronius that went extinct around 10,000 BC. A very important time in our pre-history.

I need to add that Bauval's calculation show that the Sphinx (originally a Lion) was aligned to face the constellation Leo (Lion) rising on the horizon in the year 10,500 BC.

Also Edgar Cayce said the final destruction of Atlantis happened around 10,000 BC.

reply to post by Picollo30


reply to post by Picollo30


I had read that the "elephant -trunk" that is described in the book page shown in the 1st photo is actually a representation of a Macaw. The image lat the link below is from the Dresden Codex.

www.gutenberg.org...

Blue Macaw (Ara militaris). A large macaw (Maya, mox or ṭuṭ) is undoubtedly pictured in the figures in Pl. 25. The least conventionalized drawing found is that shown in Dresden 16c (Pl. 25, fig. 2), a bird characterized by long narrow tail feathers, a heavy bill, and a series of scale-like markings on the face and about the eye. Further conventionalized drawings are found in Pl. 25, figs. 3, 10, 13, and Pl. 26, fig. 1. In all these the tail is less characteristic, though composed of long, narrow feathers, and the facial markings are reduced to a ring of circular marks about the eye. These last undoubtedly represent, as supposed by Stempell, the bare space about the eye found in certain of these large parrots. In addition, the space between the eye and the base of the bill is partially bare with small patches of feathers scattered at somewhat regular intervals in rows. It is probable that this appearance is represented by the additional round marks about the base of the bill in Pl. 25, figs. 1, 2, 5, 8, the last two of which show the head only. There has hitherto been some question as to the identity of certain stone carvings, similar to that on Stela B from Copan, of which a portion is shown in Pl. 25, fig. 8. This has even been interpreted as the trunk of an elephant or a mastodon, but is unquestionably a macaw’s beak. In addition to the ornamental crosshatching on the beak, which is also seen on the glyph from the same stela (Pl. 25, fig. 5), there is an ornamental scroll beneath the eye which likewise is crosshatched and surrounded by a ring of subcircular marks that continue to the base of the beak. The nostril is the large oval marking directly in front of the eye.

source

The second linked image, is from Padre Crespi's collection. In my personal opinion, it looks so childish and modern. it doesn't have any sophistication associated with Mesoamerican art/hieroglyphics etc.

Same for the 3rd Linked photo. This also lacks the sophistication of Mesoamerican art/hieroglyphics etc. and looks childish.

Picollo30
i was looking through some old mayan and olmec pics and i found this and i dont know what to say, this is amazing if real. thought the south american civilizations were completely ignorant of what an elephant was, yet there's this:

These glyphs are understood to be stylized forms of Macaw heads.

Picollo30


note the elephant in the bottom right next to the pyramid



also this one fron Equador show a distinct elephant on the right

These are modern. They are (or were) part of Father Crespi's collection link, hand-made artifacts created by the locals for Father Crespi.

Picollo30
reply to post by dashen

 

this is from an olmec tomb

A tapir.

Picollo30
also this one



the second one reminds me of the hindu god ganesha.

Stylized Macaws - the ruler in the depiction is wearing the macaw headdress - a well-known symbol in the culture at the time.
Sorry, no elephants in that timeline.

Harte

There is a running theory that the olmecs were of afrikan origin. one of the supporting bits of evidence is the famous olmec heads. they have features of peoples indigenous to afrika as opposed to the "traditional native american" phenotypes.

if they had elephant icons all over the place, this might lend some more credence to the theory and explain the existence of all the elephant imagery. i'm guessing, no, but it would be interesting to know if they come across any elephant remains. but somehow i doubt they were bringing elephants across the sea

grey580
reply to post by rickymouse

 

Actually there could be a third even stranger option.

A Gomphothere

There seems to be some evidence that suggest this animal wasn't extinct some 1.8 million years ago like they thought it was.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Just to Note that Puma Punku and Tiwanaku near Bolivia Peru South America these ancient ruins sites are claimed to be 17 thousand years old So just maybe ?? I wouldn't Doubt it is seeing a site

CALLED Göbekli Tepe

is 12,000 years old!!!

Göbekli Tepe
en.wikipedia.org...

Wolfenz
Just to Note that Puma Punku and Tiwanaku near Bolivia Peru South America these ancient ruins sites are claimed to be 17 thousand years old So just maybe ?? I wouldn't Doubt it is seeing a site

CALLED Göbekli Tepe

is 12,000 years old!!!

Anyone can claim anything they want.

The fact is, Tiahuanaco (of which Pumapunku is a part) dates to the common era. This fact is not in dispute, other than by people that simply have no knowledge of (or prefer to ignore) the findings there.

Harte

Harte

Wolfenz
Just to Note that Puma Punku and Tiwanaku near Bolivia Peru South America these ancient ruins sites are claimed to be 17 thousand years old So just maybe ?? I wouldn't Doubt it is seeing a site

CALLED Göbekli Tepe

is 12,000 years old!!!

Anyone can claim anything they want.

The fact is, Tiahuanaco (of which Pumapunku is a part) dates to the common era. This fact is not in dispute, other than by people that simply have no knowledge of (or prefer to ignore) the findings there.

Harte

Really ? LOL< yeah with the Organic finding of carbon dating is only what they found after the Ruins had toppled there !! that the Stones themselves !! and the Solstice Calender There Shows the exact Aliment
dating around 17 thousand years for the accuracy.. aka as the Earth was closer to the Moon...

See The Mysterious Origins of Man Documentary narrated by no other than Charles Heston !!..

Wolfenz

Harte

Wolfenz
Just to Note that Puma Punku and Tiwanaku near Bolivia Peru South America these ancient ruins sites are claimed to be 17 thousand years old So just maybe ?? I wouldn't Doubt it is seeing a site

CALLED Göbekli Tepe

is 12,000 years old!!!

Anyone can claim anything they want.

The fact is, Tiahuanaco (of which Pumapunku is a part) dates to the common era. This fact is not in dispute, other than by people that simply have no knowledge of (or prefer to ignore) the findings there.

Harte

Really ? LOL< yeah with the Organic finding of carbon dating is only what they found after the Ruins had toppled there !! that the Stones themselves !! and the Solstice Calender There Shows the exact Aliment
dating around 17 thousand years for the accuracy.. aka as the Earth was closer to the Moon...

No such alignment, which you in fact do not lay out for us here, can be found there.

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd be able to tell us what alignment you mean. If you really knew what you were talking about, you'd know that Posnanski, the guy who originally made that claim, actually supposed the placements of certain buildings which are no longer there in order to achieve this so-called alignment.

And if you really, really knew what you were talking about, you'd know how thoroughly the area has been mapped and studied and that many of the C14 samples you disparage actually came out from under several standing structures there.

The site dates to the common era. [B]*SNIP*[/B]

Harte

ATTENTION: This is getting personal which you know is not allowed here. Please keep this on topic which is really not that hard folks. The alternative is of course removed posts and possible posting bans.

Blaine91555
Forum Moderator

Blaine91555
ATTENTION: This is getting personal which you know is not allowed here. Please keep this on topic which is really not that hard folks. The alternative is of course removed posts and possible posting bans.

Blaine91555
Forum Moderator

Personal of What Hopefully you not talking about me!! and the Member im having a dispute with
as this all has to do with the Main TOPIC ! as this Thread is Claiming of Existing Elephants where Should not Be in the Time Frame Elephant did exist !! in the Claimed Locations but Way Before Civilization Existed The Disputed is the Age of The Ruins and Structures in Pre Columbia South America Yet There They are Showing Elephants in Stone Art to Pottery To Engraved Metal ... Well if you want to go far like Angkor Wat Cambodia Showing a What resembles a Dinosaur and a Egyptian Sarcophagus Showing a Plesiosaur, Dinosaur tho some want to debunk its a Cooked Bird! LOL..

www.mdw-ntr.com...

Hmm Interesting from the Smithsonian.com

Stegosaurus, Rhinoceros, or Hoax?
blogs.smithsonianmag.com...

So this is on Topic of Beasts that Shouldn't Belong in locations in the Time frame ...

and Threatening to Ban this... as to Why ?? Your Making Members Seem to Wonder...

but that if you talking about what Im Saying ... but your right it easy to astray from the Topic

Harte

Wolfenz

Harte

Wolfenz
Just to Note that Puma Punku and Tiwanaku near Bolivia Peru South America these ancient ruins sites are claimed to be 17 thousand years old So just maybe ?? I wouldn't Doubt it is seeing a site

CALLED Göbekli Tepe

is 12,000 years old!!!

Anyone can claim anything they want.

The fact is, Tiahuanaco (of which Pumapunku is a part) dates to the common era. This fact is not in dispute, other than by people that simply have no knowledge of (or prefer to ignore) the findings there.

Harte

Really ? LOL< yeah with the Organic finding of carbon dating is only what they found after the Ruins had toppled there !! that the Stones themselves !! and the Solstice Calender There Shows the exact Aliment
dating around 17 thousand years for the accuracy.. aka as the Earth was closer to the Moon...

No such alignment, which you in fact do not lay out for us here, can be found there.

If you knew what you were talking about, you'd be able to tell us what alignment you mean. If you really knew what you were talking about, you'd know that Posnanski, the guy who originally made that claim, actually supposed the placements of certain buildings which are no longer there in order to achieve this so-called alignment.

And if you really, really knew what you were talking about, you'd know how thoroughly the area has been mapped and studied and that many of the C14 samples you disparage actually came out from under several standing structures there.

The site dates to the common era. [B]*SNIP*[/B]

Harte

edit on 11/15/2013 by Blaine91555 because: unecesary rude remark removed

Tiwanaku - a city lost in time.
www.atlantisbolivia.org...




Tiwanaku cubits and measuring units.

www.atlantisbolivia.org...


((( Interesting Sumerian Egyptian Cubits )))

This page looks at some published dimensions of buildings and courtyards at Tiwanaku and analyses them in terms of "Egyptian" and "Sumerian" cubits.

Earlier studies of sites in Mexico, Peru and Bolivia suggest that use of the "Sumerian" measurement units was common throughout ancient pre-Columbian South America as was "Egyptian" units since these are both linked to each other with the Sumerian cubit being 24/25th of the Egyptian cubit. This had practical applications in land measurements since 100 Sumerian cubits was equal to 96 Egyptian cubits and this facilitated subdivision in whole numbers.. See links to earlier essays at foot of page.

Therefore a block of 100 x 100 Sumerian cubits could be divided in 1/10ths or 1/2's and remain in Sumerian cubits, or by 1/3rds for Sumerian yards of 50 shusi or by halves, quarters or eights for 'Egyptian' cubits.

For that reason, it is not unusual to find both 'Sumerian' cubits and 'Egyptian' cubits present at the same locations.

Arthur Posnansky based upon surveying of sight lines within the Kalasasaya before its reconstruction, i.e. based upon the angles created by the standing stones, thought that the Kalasasaya dated to around 15,000BC.

See here!! the Pic Below Click Click!!
www.atlantisbolivia.org..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> www.atlantisbolivia.org...

Above, radio carbon dating of Kalasasaya, said to be 800 to 400BC but one figure is 1990 to 1730BC.

One Figure ???


Here see for your Self at the marker of this Video ((( 22.00 )))
Watch the Whole Thing.. Thanks!!

[url= krishnatube.com...[/url]

ohh can someone explain as seeing elephants in pre Colombian art and just maybe civilization existed before or during the iceage.. as those claims of Tiwanaco and Puma punk may be way older what its claimed to be

From the horses mouth..

Gobekli Tepe: The World’s First Temple?
Predating Stonehenge by 6,000 years, Turkey's stunning Gobekli Tepe upends the conventional view of the rise of civilization


Read more: www.smithsonianmag.com...
Follow us: @SmithsonianMag on Twitter
www.smithsonianmag.com...

so could pre Columbia site may be way older the once thought ..

Gobekli Tepe: as a few similarity's as pre Columbia ...

so if these elephants existed in the right time frame that means either there was a one world civilization ancient trade routes that brought elephants into america... to help build ?? or before the great flood or during the ice age ... 12,000 years old >? Gobekli Tepe Ruins ?? so why not Tiwanaco or Puma Punku yet I doubt that south american natives have build these structures seeing there were barely into the bronze age when the old world landed ... as legends of a white bearded god help build civilization aka Possible (( Sumerian )) >? or LOL people for a place called Atlantis...

For one I do know that Modern Man has been on this Planet for over 250,000 years !!

So who knows ... as the Old World Egyptain Sumarian has Similarity's of the New World.. That cannot Denied!!

Then Again!!!! Elephants

Recent Survival Of The Elephant In The Americas

Science Frontiers
ONLINE
No. 68: Mar-Apr 1990

Issue Contents

Elephants were supposed to have disappeared from the America about 10,000 years ago as the Ice Ages waned. This date is another of those "consensus" scientific facts that no one dares challenge if he or she wishes to get published or win research grants. Although this subject remains "closed off" in normal scientific intercourse, there remain tantalizing hints that elephants roamed the Americas until very recently - perhaps even a few hundred years ago!

The following snippets are culled from two articles written by G. Carter, Texas A&M, now emeritus, but always heretical:

Numerous folk memories of the elephamt were retained by American Indians.
A mastadon was killed, cooked, and eaten by humans in Ecuador circa 1500 BC.
Indians told Thomas Jefferson that elephants could still be seen in the region of the Great Lakes.
In Florida, a cache of extinct animals, including elephants, was carbon-dated at 2000 BP.
Elephant heads are prominent in art and sculpture from Mexico, Central American, and northern South America.
(Carter, George F.; "A Note on the Elephant in America," and "The Mammoth in American Epigraphy," Epigraphic Society, Occasional Publications, 18:90 and 18:213, 1989.)

This Site !!
www.science-frontiers.com...

Gomphothere

Associations with early human sites[edit]

Gomphothere remains are common at South American Paleo-indian sites.[11] Examples include the early human settlement at Monte Verde, Chile, dating to approximately 14,000 years ago, and the Valle del Magdalena, Colombia.[3] Remains were also found in the El Fin del Mundo site in Sonora, Mexico's Clovis location – the first time such an association was found in a part of the continent where gomphotheres were thought to have gone extinct 30,000 years ago.[5][dead link]

en.wikipedia.org...


Hmm Thinking !! Tiwanaco 17,000 year old? Monte Verde, Chile, dating to approximately 14,000 years ago...

[/Gomphothere remains are common at South American Paleo-indian sites.[11] Examples include the early human settlement at Monte Verde, Chile, dating to approximately 14,000 years ago, and the Valle del Magdalena, Colombia.