The Star of Bethlehem : The date of Jesus birth and death in the stars

reply to post by adjensen

The Imperial cult of ancient Rome identified emperors and some members of their families with the divinely sanctioned authority of the Roman State. The framework for the Imperial cult was formulated during the early Principate of Augustus, and was rapidly established throughout the Empire and its provinces, with marked local variations in its reception and expression.
en.wikipedia.org...(ancient_Rome)

THE RESURRECTION OF JULIUS CAESAR
ON THE DAY OF THE LIBERALIA
On Friday, 17 March 44 BCE, the day of the Liberalia, the festival of Liber Pater (Bacchus/Dionysus), Julius Caesar received his state funeral and resurrected as god by the will of the people. A wax effigy of his slain body was presented, raised above the bier, at the exact spot where a cruciform tropaeum stood, and was then rotated for the attending crowd.

Caesar was the "Christos", not Jesus.

If modern believers were truly sincere in their desire for a more intimate relationship with the Lord, they would immediately want to know and question why "early believers avoided" using the name Christian? When it is realized that even the very name Christian was in use prior to the time of Jesus, we truly begin to grasp the Pagan connection. The name Christian was a term employed to describe one who was an initiate, and understood the inner meaning of the Greek and Roman mystery religions. Thus, the early followers of Jesus refused to be called Christian, and call Jesus the Christ, because the word was used in reference to enlightened Pagans and their gods.
nazirene.org...

To modern readers the name Christ doesn't mean anything other than it being the surname of Jesus, but in the time that the Bible was written it was a commonly understood title of the rightful king of Israel. The phrases "Son Of God," Redeemer, and "Savior of the World" came straight from the Romans and were originally applied to emperor August, son of the deified Julius Caesar.
www.abarim-publications.com...

The Chi Rho is one of the earliest forms of christogram, and is used by some Christians. It is formed by superimposing the first two (capital) letters chi and rho (ΧΡ) of the Greek word "ΧΡΙΣΤΟΣ" =Christ in such a way to produce the monogram. Although not technically a Christian cross, the Chi-Rho invokes the crucifixion of Jesus, as well as symbolizing his status as the Christ.

The Chi-Rho symbol was also used by pagan Greek scribes to mark, in the margin, a particularly valuable or relevant passage; the combined letters Chi and Rho standing for chrēston, meaning "good."Some coins of Ptolemy III Euergetes ( 246–222 BC) were marked with a Chi-Rho

The term "Christ" is way older than Christianity and was used by pagans long before the advent of Jesus.

Christos is a Greek word for "anointed", as I have told you in the past, and there is no grand conspiracy surrounding Jesus being anointed and others also being anointed.

Jesus was NEVER anointed! The conspiracy revolves around Jesus being called "The Christ". If there is no grand conspiracy around Jesus being the anointed one, then why is he called "The Christ" and not just another "Christ"?

Jesus, in my opinion, would never have accepted a pagan title that was being used by his oppressors. "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's", right? Jesus wouldn't have taken what was Caesars and claimed it as own.

reply to post by windword

Julius Caesar received his state funeral and resurrected as god by the will of the people. A wax effigy of his slain body was presented

How is this a resurrection? They made a wax dummy, they didn't bring him back to life.

If you think that this is in any way relevant to the resurrection of Jesus, I can see how you think two stories that have next to nothing in common are "the same story" -- you just see things the way that you want to see them, not the way that they are.

You are welcome to your hatred of Christianity, but you are not welcome to your own personal set of facts to support that position.

reply to post by windword


What about the "wise men" that saw his star. They came from a land that wasn't even under Roman occupation. And the Romans let them travel in Jerusalem. They had to declare.

reply to post by adjensen


The Romans believed that the comet was proof of the deification and resurrection of Julius Caesar. These aren't "my facts" they're history's facts. The "fact" of Jesus' resurrection, however, is NOT a fact, but a belief.

You can't say that Julius Caesar wasn't resurrected any more than you can say that Jesus was.

reply to post by Logarock


So says the Bible, and only the Bible. There's plenty of proof of "Caesar's Comet" in history, on coins and on artwork. There is no proof of the "Star of Bethlehem" or that anybody saw it.

reply to post by windword


and that is why there are Enourmous Cathedrals/Temples through out Europe, in Honor too the resurected god, Julies Ceasar.

well actuall, not seeing too many churches honouring, the gods of Rome,,ie Zuess,and the rest.

yup clearly no evidence that Jesus the Christ, has any influence on Church/Temple building, through out Europe.
or any neighbour in north America,,why u can still go too the magnificent Temple of Diana, in new york.
lets all go to Wally World instead.

ya Christianity,, u would be hard pressed too see where in society it might have survived, too this day,,but u would really have too,, use your imagination,, too make any kind of connection,

praise./heil
Ceasar!/hitler.

reply to post by adjensen


Here's what Ovid had to say about the death and resurrection of the "god" Julius Caesar:

Ovid wrote in the Metamorphoses (finished 8 CE) concerning the death and ascension of Julius Caesar as well as the divinity of Augustus (15.745-870).

Venus foresaw what was going to happen to her descendent Julius, and she cried throughout heaven. The Gods were moved, but nothing could alter Fate (15.779-81). Still, the Gods gave sure signs of the grief to come on earth. People heard trumpets in the sky and weapons clashed in black clouds. The sad image of the sun offered only a lurid light to the worried lands (785-6). Drops of blood fell among the clouds; the Morning Star was spattered with darkness; the Moon was spattered with blood; ivory statues cried in a thousand places (788-92). "They say that ghosts of the silent dead wandered around and that the city was moved by earthquakes" (797-8, umbrasque silentum erravisse ferunt motamque tremoribus urbem). Yet the forewarnings of the Gods could not stop the treachery or fated events. Venus tried to hide Julius in a cloud, but Jove read her the fates and explained that Julius had completed the time and finished the years he owed to the earth (816-7, hic sua conplevit ... tempora, perfectis, quos terrae debuit, annis). Venus and Julius' son Augustus will make it so that Julius will accede to heaven and be worshiped in temples (818-19, ut deus accedat caelo templisque colatur, tu facies natusque suus). "Meanwhile, make this spirit, taken from its murdered body, into the heavenly brightness (iubar) of a star, so that from his exalted dwelling place the divine Julius may always look down upon our Capitol and Forum" (840-2, 'hanc animam interea caeso de corpore raptam / fac iubar, ut semper Capitolia nostra forumque / divus ab excelsa prospectet Iulius aede!'). And immediately Venus came to earth unseen and took Julius' spirit from his body and bore him aloft to the celestial stars. He rose as a comet and shone as a star (843-8)
sites.google.com...

Sound familiar?

windword
reply to post by Logarock

 

So says the Bible, and only the Bible. There's plenty of proof of "Caesar's Comet" in history, on coins and on artwork. There is no proof of the "Star of Bethlehem" or that anybody saw it.

This brings up a very valid point on something I have wondered about....is there a single other source of reference from the same time Jesus was around other than the bible? Any other writings with a direct correlation to the time of Jesus, not something someone wrote about him 50-100 years later, but something that actually references Jesus and is from the time he was alive?

windword
reply to post by Logarock

 

So says the Bible, and only the Bible. There's plenty of proof of "Caesar's Comet" in history, on coins and on artwork. There is no proof of the "Star of Bethlehem" or that anybody saw it.

That's easy to explain. Caesars history is going to be a matter of state and propaganda. And official state records are known for a fact to lie by the way. Only a handful of people understood anything about who Jesus was at his birth. Jesus certainly wasn't going to be included in Herodian official records for example. Just another poor Jew from a small town, big deal.

But you are actually going to set there and demand some official records about Jesus birth period on par with roman imperial records about Caesar. Or records, official records of what shepards saw out in the field one night. Get your HOYA.

windword
reply to post by adjensen

 

Here's what Ovid had to say about the death and resurrection of the "god" Julius Caesar:

Ovid wrote in the Metamorphoses (finished 8 CE) concerning the death and ascension of Julius Caesar as well as the divinity of Augustus (15.745-870).

Venus foresaw what was going to happen to her descendent Julius, and she cried throughout heaven. The Gods were moved, but nothing could alter Fate (15.779-81). Still, the Gods gave sure signs of the grief to come on earth. People heard trumpets in the sky and weapons clashed in black clouds. The sad image of the sun offered only a lurid light to the worried lands (785-6). Drops of blood fell among the clouds; the Morning Star was spattered with darkness; the Moon was spattered with blood; ivory statues cried in a thousand places (788-92). "They say that ghosts of the silent dead wandered around and that the city was moved by earthquakes" (797-8, umbrasque silentum erravisse ferunt motamque tremoribus urbem). Yet the forewarnings of the Gods could not stop the treachery or fated events. Venus tried to hide Julius in a cloud, but Jove read her the fates and explained that Julius had completed the time and finished the years he owed to the earth (816-7, hic sua conplevit ... tempora, perfectis, quos terrae debuit, annis). Venus and Julius' son Augustus will make it so that Julius will accede to heaven and be worshiped in temples (818-19, ut deus accedat caelo templisque colatur, tu facies natusque suus). "Meanwhile, make this spirit, taken from its murdered body, into the heavenly brightness (iubar) of a star, so that from his exalted dwelling place the divine Julius may always look down upon our Capitol and Forum" (840-2, 'hanc animam interea caeso de corpore raptam / fac iubar, ut semper Capitolia nostra forumque / divus ab excelsa prospectet Iulius aede!'). And immediately Venus came to earth unseen and took Julius' spirit from his body and bore him aloft to the celestial stars. He rose as a comet and shone as a star (843-8)
sites.google.com...

Sound familiar?

Yea, that's just your old standard pagan king as god turned into a star nonsense. Night of the dead nonsense. You find the same thing in Egypt back to Summer. These are nothing but perversions of older, very old, possible pre flood prophesies of Jesus.

reply to post by Logarock


I'm not asking for official documentation on the birth of Jesus, I'm asking for documentation on the "Star of Bethlehem". There isn't any! There is, however, plenty of documentation on "Caesar's Comet".

Did the writers of the Bible incorporate the known phenomena of "Caesar's Comet" with the mythological birth of Jesus? I think so. They also incorporated the record of the comet and it's mystic attributes into his death, in my opinion.

Same story, different names. It's easy to see, especially given Ovid's colorful account and how it aligns with the biblical story and the supposed event of the crucifixion of Jesus.

windword
reply to post by Logarock

 

I'm not asking for official documentation on the birth of Jesus, I'm asking for documentation on the "Star of Bethlehem". There isn't any! There is, however, plenty of documentation on "Caesar's Comet".

Did the writers of the Bible incorporate the known phenomena of "Caesar's Comet" with the mythological birth of Jesus? I think so. They also incorporated the record of the comet and it's mystic attributes into his death, in my opinion.

Same story, different names. It's easy to see, especially given Ovid's colorful account and how it aligns with the biblical story and the supposed event of the crucifixion of Jesus.

Same thing, I explained that. There would be no official records of what a bunch of country folks saw one night and its ridiculous to expect the same sort of supporting documents. And as I pointed out keeping records on Caesar was a matter of state. The basis for your supposition is really stupid and has no real scholarly merit at all.

reply to post by Logarock

There would be no official records of what a bunch of country folks saw one night

But the Star of Bethlehem lasted way longer than one night. The wise men supposedly followed it all the from the east! How long that did that trip take, before the star stopped and lingered over Bethlehem? Seems to me other people would see something like that and record it.

And, who were the shepherds tending their flocks, that they were interviewed and their story immortalized in the Bible? Who tracked them down to tell their story? If some nocount shepherds saw the star, why not any Jewish, Greek, Roman, Persian or Egyptian astronomers/astrologers? Where were the astro-theologians of the time? Wouldn't they have been all over it?

reply to post by windword

Sound familiar?

You post a giant paragraph of text, one line of which bears some resemblance to something in the Bible, and you think that demonstrates anything?

Again, where is the description of a resurrected Julius Caesar, alive in the body, hanging out with his buds in Rome? Nowhere, that's where. He wasn't resurrected, the legend that Augustus put forth was that his spirit was taken to Venus (the god, not the planet, lol.)

Not even remotely the same thing, never mind the ridiculousness of thinking that the Jewish authors of the Bible would plagiarize from the widely known story about the former leader of the people who were oppressing them. That's beyond stupid.

windword
reply to post by Logarock

 

There would be no official records of what a bunch of country folks saw one night

But the Star of Bethlehem lasted way longer than one night. The wise men supposedly followed it all the from the east! How long that did that trip take, before the star stopped and lingered over Bethlehem? Seems to me other people would see something like that and record it.

And, who were the shepherds tending their flocks, that they were interviewed and their story immortalized in the Bible? Who tracked them down to tell their story? If some nocount shepherds saw the star, why not any Jewish, Greek, Roman, Persian or Egyptian astronomers/astrologers? Where were the astro-theologians of the time? Wouldn't they have been all over it?

Maybe but its not like we have complete and thorough records from any of these sources. Jerusalem was burned to the ground, Alexandria burned to the ground and so Rome. Who can say about anyone else.

reply to post by Logarock


Now who's being silly? The Romans or the Greeks would have recorded such a star. They didn't!

Maybe the Star of Bethlehem was swamp gas! Or, maybe this story is just the retelling of Caesar's Comet!

reply to post by adjensen


Its the same mythology! In Ovid's account the ground shook. The dead walked among the living and the Sun's light faltered. The same story that the Bible retells, only it was written in 4 BC!

You just refuse to see the similarities.

It wasn't the Jews that plagiarized the story, it was the Roman Catholics, years later.

windword


But the Star of Bethlehem lasted way longer than one night.

Yet more proof you never watched the video as this is explained precisely in it. It's really sad that those of you who seem to be truth seekers refuse to get out of your self imposed boxes and look at some factual astrological data. Nonetheless, I figured those with your anti-Bible mindset would never actually watch the video, and thus even if you did you would stick your fingers in your ears and hum all through it so you could say you watched it albeit to not really cogently apply the information.

The facts are plain to see, and anyone who wants to see how beautifully God has created the Heavens and they are for signs then this is a video you don't want to miss.

No need to reply wind unless you just need the last word, feel free. We can agree to disagree on this.

Vasa Croe

windword
reply to post by Logarock

 

So says the Bible, and only the Bible. There's plenty of proof of "Caesar's Comet" in history, on coins and on artwork. There is no proof of the "Star of Bethlehem" or that anybody saw it.

This brings up a very valid point on something I have wondered about....is there a single other source of reference from the same time Jesus was around other than the bible? Any other writings with a direct correlation to the time of Jesus, not something someone wrote about him 50-100 years later, but something that actually references Jesus and is from the time he was alive?

Why do you all bother to comment when it's clear you did not watch the video. The Star of Bethlehem staying there is answered. It was not a comet, but think that if you want to. Mr. Larson did a great job as well as Michael Heiser.

Anyone who reads this thread should watch the video before replying because all these arguments are handled within it, but it's clear some of you just want to ignore the OP and share your views regardless of the facts presented.

dorkfish87
reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

 

Bethlehem didn't really exist, it's just an old name for the virgo constellation. That is why they have never found it, it didn't really exist. Even early Christians didn't actually believe in their own lies, they had stolen it from older religions, that stole it from older religions and so on and so forth.

Do you not investigate anything for yourself before you put forth such blatently false information? I hope you're just mistaken and not purposefully saying this stuff.

Archaeologists find first proof of ancient Bethlehem

The artifact, a bulla, or piece of clay for sealing a document, may prove existence of Bethlehem dating back to First Temple Period.

Archaeologists recently discovered the first artifact constituting tangible evidence of the existence of the ancient city of Bethlehem, which is mentioned in the Torah, according to an Israel Antiquities Authority statement released Wednesday.

The artifact, a bulla, or piece of clay for sealing a document or object, may prove the existence of Bethlehem dating back to the First Temple Period.

The dramatic discovery was made while sifting soil from archaeological excavations the Israel Antiquities Authority is conducting in the City of David, in the “Walls around Jerusalem National Park.”

The bulla, measuring 1.5 cm, was discovered bearing the name of the city, written in ancient Hebrew script. The dig is underwritten by the Ir David Foundation.

A bulla would be impressed with the seal of the person who sent the document or object, and its integrity was evidence that no one had viewed or opened the document who unless authorized.

Three lines of ancient Hebrew script appear on the bulla, including the words: Bishv'at, Bet Lechem and [Lemel]ekh.

source