Why I will never support the Libertarians.

reply to post by SasquatchHunter


I don't disagree with anything you've posted.

In case I've misrepresented myself, I an not a practicing Christian. I'm a believer in the Judeo-Christian moral code as being the most workable system of co-operation in a group every devised and when combined with the Constitution created the greatest nation in the history of this planet.

I see a direct correlation between the degradation of that code and the decline of this country. Party is irrelevant.

Which party, in general supports that which worked before gets my support. It sure isn't the Libertarians, at least so far....

reply to post by nwtrucker


I'm glad you enjoyed my post, and I thank you again for sharing your thoughts, I've enjoyed reading them.

I will say one thing: You have the right to abstain from anything to do with homosexual lifestyles as your religion dictates, just as Jewish people have the right to worship on Saturday not Sunday, just as Hindus from India have the right to abstain from anything having to do with meat eating as their religion dictates. The key is not getting into these other people's lives and telling them how to live. We have freedom of religion.

But let me really cut to the core here... The issue is this: I think the problem with many of you social conservatives is you actually underestimate how low the bar has sank, you underestimate how really evil things have become right now. Little things like smoking a joint and playing guitar or a promiscuious lifestyle are DWARFED by the immoral actions going on right now at high levels. And its not easy to see, either - it often takes a calculator and some research/thinking to even grasp the huge stuff that's going on. So when I hear conservatives talking about the unsustainability of the debt for instance, they get some of my respect. But not the smaller social issues. (think about the government forced homosexual abuses reported in Abu Graib/Gitmo for instance, and contrast that to some consenting guys sharing wine and an evening together to see what I mean. Which is more important to stand up to?)

The other thing I think conservatives underestimate is the goodness of people's hearts, despite all the bad things happening at a large scale. People thirst for moral direction, deep inside they yearn to do the right thing. But if the spokespeople for moral direction are focused on small things, and don't acknowledge the horrendous large scale things average Americans have seen, we must conclude that they are just useful idiots, who will only distract from the big bad things going on toward little things that pale in comparison. This is the view many Americans have of social conservatives. First and foremost they must show a mind capable of grasping the scale of modern evil to earn the people's respect. They must be able to deal with the remarkable cleverness of evil.

Again, I thank you for sharing your thoughts, I hope you will respect that I am just sharing mine. I believe deep inside that we will overcome these obstacles and be a great country again. Peace!

reply to post by Bassago


I understand, I didn't claim the country was full of idealists o rocket scientists.

I agree about the sixties and seventies although it's much worse now. I was looking even earlier than that though.

That self-absorbed mentality that is so prevalent, nothing greater than self, not a "god", not a country, not duty, not even family.

I will go as far as to say each state can damn well do what they want, that's their moral code/choice. As well as their Constitutional right.

However, do whatever you want is a death sentence for a nation on a planet as crazy as this one. Someone will take it away or take over and bye, bye, doing what you want......

reply to post by tridentblue


Once again, I get what your saying. Those little evil's are dwarfed by what's being done.

What I'm trying to say is the big ones are by people too. That they weren't as prevalent in the day as now.

That there are good hearted people goes without saying. I'm just saying that we didn't stomp the evil when we should have largely to being "nice", being kind...being indifferent.

It also goes without saying abuse is less tempting when someone, many someones are watching what you do and how you do it. Morals, responsibility, that's the route to liberty.

ManFromEurope

Source

'nuff said. Even if some members here won't like it. But thats how it would run.

Nice propaganda, but let's be honest... Star Trek is a nice bit of social engineering and nothing like real socialism. Nice fantasy, but far from reality.

reply to post by Snarl


Yeah, the disconnect between power and the people is at an all time high. I'm in a weird spot, because while I advocate liberal policies, I think we need to bring the power back more to a local level. Most of the folks advocating more power at state/local level are Republicans. So its odd for me to figure out who to support.

Yay for moral society being paramount concern.

Middle east is run strictly from this viewpoint also, religion before rules, religion makes rules, anything not lifted from the holy pages are frowned on, or properly punished.

So...
Since America clearly isn't for you, I invite you to then pack your bags and move to the already in place paradise for your mindset, Lovely Saudi Arabia. Totally wildly conservative, heavily religious, you will love it.

America isn't going back to its puritan roots. deal with it.

reply to post by SaturnFX


If you look close, you'll see you're moral too SaturnFX. Do you think there's something in the laws of science that says the 1% elite shouldn't engineer a situation where 99% of the earth is killed and they take over? There isn't. Any argument against that, or any other evil thing you can think up, is MORAL in nature. Without a moral code, anything goes. There's no reason in speaking out at all, except for your own self interest. So admit it, there's things you think are right, and things you think are wrong. You have a moral code.

reply to post by SaturnFX


Ouch, that's nasty. LOL.

So I guess you support more tolerance, after all, everything is our fault. Live and let live then they'll leave us alone, right?

I didn't say anything about religion, just a moral code. Of course, there's the no moral code code of the humanist.

Sorry. this isn't the middle east, nor will it become one.

I'm digging in, not packing bags...

ManFromEurope

Source

'nuff said. Even if some members here won't like it. But thats how it would run.

Just had see it again.

Well done.

reply to post by nwtrucker


No moral code for the humanist? absolute BS, humanists care for humanity and do so not because of threats of burning in hell or any other threat but because it feels right.
Makes me laugh how religious folk think they are so moral but openly condemn others when their book tells them not to.

If you're going to bring Star Trek into this, remember that even members of the Federation are supposed to remain free from an authoritarian central government. Remember when Wesley got busted for accidentally trashing the Space Sex Fiends' landscaping and their laws said he had to be executed for it? Picard broke standing orders to save him, letting his personal feelings interfere with his command duties as a starship captain?

Yeah, Gene Roddenberry apparently thought the whole local sovereignty thing was important enough to make an episode about it. Socialism, in our experience with it on this planet, is about anything but decentralized government.

Or the one when Picard and Troi beam down to make first contact and assure the inhabitants that "your planet will remain yours"? Very libertarian, in fact. I might be confusing that with the one where Kirk tries to convince the Transcendent Energy People that the Klingons are going to enslave them all if they don't side with the Federation...

...but you know what I mean.

I'd also like to mention that Socialism has a finite life before it runs out of other people's money. The image representation is more or less inaccurate even if it were reversed.

> Socialism is poor for morale and incapable of self-sustaining itself
> Libertarianism is good for morale and capable of self-sustaining itself
> Communism is poor for morale but capable of self-sustaining itself
> Capitalism is okay for morale and partially capable of self-sustaining itself
> Marxism is poor for morale and unable to sustain itself
> Fascism is poor for morale but capable of self-sustaining itself with a very finite lifespan

I don't think we would be able to achieve a Star Trek kind of era under libertarianism, but socialism is far less likely to be probable.

reply to post by tridentblue


I think you express the views of many people. I grew up in America for 23 years (Chicago, Albuquerque, Denver, San Fran) and am now a citizen of Australia. No place is perfect, but you guys have lost the plot there. The rest of the World is getting tired of your Zombie America crap. "No man is an island." The tide of humanity is turning against you. All you have left is bought-off politicians and corporate fascism. Please keep your military in check, for your sakes, and the rest of the world.

reply to post by nwtrucker

Our Judeo-Christian moral code rules. That which worked in the past and helped put America on the top in virtually every category one could think of. Workability. Tried and true.

ozwest
reply to post by tridentblue

 

I think you express the views of many people. I grew up in America for 23 years (Chicago, Albuquerque, Denver, San Fran) and am now a citizen of Australia. No place is perfect, but you guys have lost the plot there. The rest of the World is getting tired of your Zombie America crap. "No man is an island." The tide of humanity is turning against you. All you have left is bought-off politicians and corporate fascism. Please keep your military in check, for your sakes, and the rest of the world.

If you were here for so long, you should know that what the gov. does and what the people want are two different things. Do you think, we over here, LIKE looking that way to the world? That we ENJOY dang-near not being able to travel abroad anymore because of the way our gov. has handled our country? That if I'm talking to someone from another country, chances are that they don't like me automatically without even knowing me because I'm American? The "rest of the world" doesn't like it obviously, but maybe try being the one everyone hates and not being able to do anything about it. Much less fun. After all, we can't all just pack up and move across the world. I think maybe you're post should be directed at people that can actually control these things. Yeah, Ill make sure and keep our military in check. Right on top of it.... BTW, if you think, for one second, that if America wasn't doing some of the things it's doing that nobody else would take it's place and do the same that's just really naïve. Don't worry it'll be someone else's turn soon enough. Throughout history there has always been one. Sadly, at this point, I guess that's human nature. Not that it's right, at all.

But with the OP, I don't think any specific party / ideology is going to fix the system in itself. I think they all have their winning graces with certain issues, we just need more colabaration from everyone to bring those points together. But, that's a whole thread by itself.

~Peace

reply to post by FyreByrd


What do they check every law against to see if it's legal? The Constitution.

reply to post by Battery


I feel your frustration. I grew up in America, lived behind the white picket fence and grew up in Plainfield, Illinois. Was a 3rd team All-American. Love Americans and their work-ethic. Wanted to spend my life there. But I made a decision and am glad I am here now. No matter how hard you try, Americans are too sheepish. Too easily manipulated. Too uninformed. I truly wish you the best.

reply to post by ozwest


It is frustrating. Very. And yes, many are chronically uninformed. However, I think maybe that's the point. They do a good job of it. I just hope for the sake of my country that maybe someday, that'll start to take a turn.

Frustrating to say the least. Wish you the best as well.

~Peace

reply to post by UnifiedSerenity

You may want to watch Star Trek before commenting on it.



And then we have people that can't tell the difference between socialism and communism. Like the person who made this video.