Killology

I first came across Lt. Col. Grossman's work when the article based on his book "Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill" was making the rounds with parents in my daughter's very counter-culture school (Waldorf if interested).

I have a love/hate relationship with the military being a military brat and so do pay close attention to scholarly work by career military. I'm not so swayed any longer, the military and it's officer corps are not the ones I grew up with.

This guy teachs people to kill, he did so in the military and now is 'advising' private contractors and police departments. His work is well researched and well written.

A brief bio:

Col. Grossman is a former West Point psychology professor, Professor of Military Science, and an Army Ranger who has combined his experiences to become the founder of a new field of scientific endeavor, which has been termed “killology.” In this new field Col. Grossman has made revolutionary new contributions to our understanding of killing in war, the psychological costs of war, the root causes of the current "virus" of violent crime that is raging around the world, and the process of healing the victims of violence, in war and peace.

www.killology.com...

Here is a link to the article, I'm refering to:

www.killology.com...

By Lt. Col. Dave Grossman
Phi Kappa Phi National Forum, Fall 2000, 2500 words

Authors note: This was published in Phi Kappa Phi “National Forum,” in their Fall 2000 issue. "National Forum is one of the most prestigious, interdisciplinary, academic journals. An earlier version was published in “Christianity Today,” “Saturday Evening Post,” “US Catholic,” “Hinduism Today,” and many other US publications, and it was translated and published in periodicals in nine different languages. I am the copyright holder, and I authorize reproduction and distribution of this article by the readers of this web page.

And his openning:

A Case Study: Paducah, Kentucky
Michael Carneal, the 14-year-old killer in the Paducah, Kentucky school shootings, had never fired a real pistol in his life. He stole a .22 pistol, fired a few practice shots, and took it to school. He fired eight shots at a high school prayer group, hitting eight kids, five of them head shots and the other three upper torso (Grossman & DeGaetana, 1999).

I train numerous elite military and law enforcement organizations around the world. When I tell them of this achievement they are stunned. Nowhere in the annals of military or law enforcement history can we find an equivalent "achievement."

Where does a 14-year-old boy who never fired a gun before get the skill and the will to kill? Video games and media violence.

And then this conclucion:

That little girl was all she had in all the world, and all she wanted to do was wrap her little girl’s body in a blanket and take her home. Some people’s solution to the problem of media violence is, “If you don’t like it, just turn it off.” If that is your only solution to this problem, then come to Jonesboro, and tell her how this would have kept her little girl safe.

All of us can keep our kids safe from this toxic, addictive substance, and it won’t be enough if the neighbors are not doing the same. Perhaps the time has come to consider regulating what the violence industry is selling to kids, controlling the sale of visual violent imagery to children, while still permitting free access to adults, just as we do with guns, pornography, alcohol, tobacco, sex and cars.

www.killology.com...

With the seemingly increasing incidents such as the above and their disccusion on ATS (psych meds, psych-ops, etc.) I don't often hear much discussion about this particular cause. I believe that to be because many members are fans of these type of games which I don't judge one way or the other but I think it is a very important issue and Col. Grossman really breaks it down.

I've played video games, watched violent TV and Films and really don't like some of the images and ideas that linger in my mind from them. Reality is, I've never seen a person killed in front of me, but on TV I see several killings a day. Reality is I've never had to be prepared to kill, I know how to handle weapons, but choose not to have one in my home as the statistics show you are much more likely to die from a gun if you own a gun, simple math - add children to the equation - and it gets truly scary.

I thought ATS would respect this author and that his work would contribute to the discussions. His article "Stop Teaching Our Kids To Kill" was written before 9/11. His website has links to his other work and you might find it interesting.

reply to post by FyreByrd

desensitised to violence due to video games , yes i so agree , i have been thinking the same for years now .

This is going on the premise that every kid is a potential mass murderer, which is not true. There will always be those few warped individuals in the crowd. Depending on the size of the crowd.

In the 60's and 70's most kids didn't have access to guns, although there were occasional stabbings. Violent movies, television and video games are not at fault, its careless parenting or just plain bad upbringing.

Also, government involvement preventing parents for punishing their kids for wrong doing is a factor as well.

reply to post by FyreByrd


The thing is, the guy has all the credentials of an expert, but makes a statement like this.

He stole a .22 pistol, fired a few practice shots, and took it to school. He fired eight shots at a high school prayer group, hitting eight kids, five of them head shots and the other three upper torso (Grossman & DeGaetana, 1999).

I train numerous elite military and law enforcement organizations around the world. When I tell them of this achievement they are stunned. Nowhere in the annals of military or law enforcement history can we find an equivalent "achievement."

Read a bio on Billy the Kid, or Wild Bill Hickok. I don't think either one ever played violent video games.

There are some people who are naturals.

Up until the invention of the refrigerator, killing in order to eat was a daily occurrence. Most people lived on farms, and they raised the animals they killed in order to eat. We are not more violent, we are far less violent than our ancestors.

eManym
This is going on the premise that every kid is a potential mass murderer, which is not true. There will always be those few warped individuals in the crowd. Depending on the size of the crowd.

In the 60's and 70's most kids didn't have access to guns, although there were occasional stabbings. Violent movies, television and video games are not at fault, its careless parenting or just plain bad upbringing.

Also, government involvement preventing parents for punishing their kids for wrong doing is a factor as well.

Open mind here, please. Consider the possibilty that you are wrong.

Please read the material and attempt to understand it before declaring it in error.

You are providing a classic example of unthinking reaction - which, BTW, it the case made by Col. Grossman in his work.

I live in the coastal south east USA and learning the correct way to handle a weapon to hunt food or protect your life has been taught as long as I can remember.

My brother was 5 yrs. old and I was 10 yrs. old.
We were both taught gun safety and how to shoot our target at about 5 yrs. old.

We lived on a 900 acre island and our parents would give us our weapons and a certain area not to go out of and we put out game bags on our shoulders and hunted with each other and were expected to bring home enough food for a meal.

Of course we were well taught gun safety and respect.
Mother would tell us to be sure to aim for the head of what ever animal we were hunting so it would not end up with shot in the meaty part of the meat we would eat because we could not afford to break a tooth biting down on a piece of meat we killed and she cooked and it had shot in it.

I carried on this tradition with my children and all my grandchildren.

I changed the way gun safety was taught in our family when I used targets of the human body.
My motto was never kill any animal unless you planned to eat it.
And I taught them to never raise their weapon on a human unless it was a matter of life and death.

Most importantly I showed them how and where to hit a human to just stop him or kill if that was the last choice.

Our world is very corrupt.
Everyone should know how to hunt food and also to protect themselves from someone who is trying to take their life.

With or without being taught how to use a weapon a small percentage of people are going to be bad and hurt other people.

dizziedame


With or without being taught how to use a weapon a small percentage of people are going to be bad and hurt other people.

edit on 10-11-2013 by dizziedame because: (no reason given)

And I commend you on teaching weapons safety to your children. I was taught as well and choose not to have weapons (knives will work in a pinch) in my home.

That said, it's completely off topic here where the discussion is about how violent respresentations in media condition and desensitize children to violence and killing.

This is intresting......

Something is causeing mass shootings in the USA.

But we get the same games and TV in the EU (or UK at least) yet we dont get many mass shooting.

And it cant be the guns as Swilterland and Czesloakia have less gun laws than the USA and they dont get mass shootings......


So........ there has to be another variable.

poet1b
reply to post by FyreByrd

 

Read a bio on Billy the Kid, or Wild Bill Hickok. I don't think either one ever played violent video games.

edit on 10-11-2013 by poet1b because: strange, my comments did not appear in the post

edit on 10-11-2013 by poet1b because: (no reason given)

I will concede this one to you and agree there are psychopaths in all eras (I could agrue that they were trained/conditioned by other psychopaths to violence).

Your other comments sidestep the point. That point being that children are becoming increasingly conditioned to seek violent solutions to even small problems.

His opening example is about how playing video games give a child the skill (eye-hand) and will (easy solution) to commit violence. Col Grossman equates violent video games to instruction in killing as we use other (video) simulators to train pilots to fly.

I believe I've addressed your points.

reply to post by FyreByrd


I agree with you completely.

Two of my grandsons are 22 yrs. old and have played violent computer games since they were young.
Sometimes I join them in the games.

This is when parenting comes into play.

Yes the video games are very violent and mimic crimes in life.
It is the parents job to instill the truth that yes this is sometimes true in life but it is not tolerated.

Television taught generations about crime and horrid murder long before video.

Shows about the Mafia were some of my favorites.
I knew it was wrong to do as the characters did.
But it was fun to watch.

Holding and firing a gun in real life, is absolutely nothing like holding and firing one in a game(aside from some that I have seen in arcades, where you are actually holding a gun replica). PC games, you have one hand on the keyboard, one hand on the mouse. Nothing like handling a gun. In consoles it's a controller, using a thumbpad to aim. Nothing like holding, aiming, and shooting a gun. Playing COD isn't gonna make you a marksman in real life.

poet1b

The thing is, the guy has all the credentials of an expert, but makes a statement like this.

He stole a .22 pistol, fired a few practice shots, and took it to school. He fired eight shots at a high school prayer group, hitting eight kids, five of them head shots and the other three upper torso (Grossman & DeGaetana, 1999).

I train numerous elite military and law enforcement organizations around the world. When I tell them of this achievement they are stunned. Nowhere in the annals of military or law enforcement history can we find an equivalent "achievement."

..........and this:

FyreByrd

Perhaps the time has come to consider regulating what the violence industry is selling to kids, controlling the sale of visual violent imagery to children, while still permitting free access to adults, just as we do with guns, pornography, alcohol, tobacco, sex and cars.

He may be good at killing, but he's not very good at formulating a plan to stop killing if that is the best he can come up with. I hope he doesn't believe that laws stopping minors from drinking, for instance, actually curbs teenage drinking.

I don't pretend to know the answer to this, but it seems that we get what we tolerate. It's not that complicated.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


Not to mention the fact it is already done with the rating system. We just have dumbass parents buying 10 year old Jimmie his copy of GTA 5. Movies rating system too. Can't get into an R movie without an adult. Plenty of parents let their kids watch R rated action and horror movies.

crazyewok
This is intresting......

Something is causeing mass shootings in the USA.

But we get the same games and TV in the EU (or UK at least) yet we dont get many mass shooting.

And it cant be the guns as Swilterland and Czesloakia have less gun laws than the USA and they dont get mass shootings......


So........ there has to be another variable.

edit on 10-11-2013 by crazyewok because: (no reason given)

Like maybe the fact that Americans are taught to look up to their leaders. Their leaders that have endorsed one war/skirmish or another, constantly for at least one generation now. Name one other country in the world who has been involved in, or led, wars for the past 30 years, to the extent that America has.

People think violence is the answer because that's what their leaders are teaching them.

Just a thought.

reply to post by TKDRL


Thanks, Exactly!

Shooting an animated character on TV is completely different than shooting a live human being.

How many people posting on these boards have ever actually killed anything more significant than an insect?

It is a whole different level.

reply to post by Taupin Desciple


Yep, it has been long established that telling someone they can not do something increases the chances that they will do it.

The last thing we need is more laws regulating individual behavior, and this seems to be exactly the goal for this so called expert.

IMO, the ever tightening noose of ridiculous rules and controls , created by the institutions that have taken over our lives, are probably the biggest reason more and more people pop a screw or two loose and go on a murderous rampage.

Taupin Desciple
[

Like maybe the fact that Americans are taught to look up to their leaders. Their leaders that have endorsed one war/skirmish or another, constantly for at least one generation now. Name one other country in the world who has been involved in, or led, wars for the past 30 years, to the extent that America has.

People think violence is the answer because that's what their leaders are teaching them.

Just a thought.

I think also its the culture that guns are a cool, fun exciting thing and to be cheered at when used.

Maybe if it was drumed in to people that a gun needs respect and to use one is a serious and solem matter things may change?


No gun control ect Just a change of attitude.

Look some people can't take life or it's pressure. Existing is a difficult thing to do. Surely we all agree people should NOT be treated this way? People should be freed from these shackles to pursue a better reality,we all know it and it drives people insane when the reality of life hits them.
The Aurora shooter was going to be kicked out of med school so he bought guns with a student loan and said F### it!.

For some it can be as broken down as to be MY dreams or everybody gets hurt. Nobody could fix that.

reply to post by crazyewok


The only place you find those attitudes about guns is within street gangs. Those of us brought up around guns are taught to respect the tool. Same way we are taught not to put our fingers near the blade of a skill saw, or the blades on the mower, we are taught not to point our gun at anything we aren't planning on shooting. If you aren't aiming, the barrel is pointed at the ground. Treat every gun as if it is locked and loaded until you personally check that it isn't. The same as every dangerous tool out there, there are proper safety protocols to be followed, if they aren't someone could be hurt or killed.

Oh another thought. The only place that guns are seen as "cool, hip" are places they are defacto banned. Same way a lot of kids see smoking cigs and drinking, because they are not supposed to do it. Makes people feel like a rebel. Perhaps that has something to do with it as well. In the country guns and knives are as common to see as a hammer. It has a lot less of an appeal when they are all over the place.