CNBC - Young Obamacare Supporter Whining - Told Ya So

reply to post by kozmo


Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that they are just as much takers as the entitlement crowd and both often vote together for the same reason - they depend on government to provide them with stuff. And government depends on their votes and buys them by promising said stuff. And where does government get said stuff? By taking it from the rest of us.

reply to post by kozmo


How can you rebutle that... That was well stated kozmo, and I thank you. Now.... What to add~

I'm 31years old, grew up poor and grew up right. I've always known nothing is "free" nor do I have any incling of that predisposition. Everything, that I have experianced in life is through sacrifice and for majority "hard labor". It gives a sense of accomplishment, for sure.

This is not to say that I don't have people my age with that mentality that you stated, it's very daunting to say the least.

Never voted for Obama, never will, my fiance' is kicking herself in the ass hard enough for me not to have to say anything regarding our current regime of greedy elite.

I think most older gen on this board would find that there are many younger (as i'm in the middle) that are waking up to the facts stated on this board, for those that don't.... Well, Houston we've had a problem for a while now

It's funny, all the discussions that take place here on ATS, always end at "the cross-roads" of where we "were", where we are "currently" and the ultimate quandery of "what the fetch are going to do to rectify this conundrome of a mess".

This pondery keeps running through my mind, there is no "easy" answer. At the end of the day, "we" (all of us) are all responsible, whether guilty, innocent or playing switzerland.

Anyway, I kinda went on a tangent. Thanks for the response, and if you have an idea for any of the above, I'm more than ears.

Best regards,

reply to post by Awolscout


There is no such thing as free. You need to get your concepts correct.

reply to post by Boadicea


Well, I agree that you have the right to do whatever you can to safeguard your own health.

I also agree that government needs to get our of health care by and large.

I also agree that there are far better systems than both single payer and insurance subsidized. For one thing, I think a single, catastrophic policy along with a system of HSAs that are cumulative and can be invested as the individual wishes to grow even more as they build up (Singapore has this plan). You use your HSA to pay for your regular, non-catastrophic care out of pocket and you buy directly from the providers so you shop around. I also posit that you could even have a system of policy riders for chronic care that could be added to your catastrophic plan for extra charge.

Then, tort reform and other sensible reforms like regulatory reforms to help make it easier to do medical research. Some trade reform so that we can stop subsidizing the rest of the world with our drug costs. Things like that.

This man sums it all up rather nicely!

"I was arguing about the minimum wage with someone recently. Halfway through the discussion, she forcefully proclaimed that “everyone deserves a living wage.”

I hear this idea quite a bit nowadays. There’s a lot of deserving going on, apparently. Everyone seems to deserve everything. We deserve a job. We deserve affordable housing. We deserve a phone. We deserve cable TV. We deserve internet access. We deserve higher wages. We deserve. We deserve. We deserve."

Some People Don't Deserve Living Wage!

Worth reading the whole thing...

reply to post by kozmo


It's should be "You have a right to EARN that living wage", this is the mentality that kills me, honestly it makes me want to punch a few people in the face, not on this board though

I guess I was raised with the mentality of "2nd place is the 1st loser" better luck next time!

Seriously, people flipping burgers asking and protesting to make 15 bucks an hour!!! Get a real skill, better yourself and don't expect anything, because when you do, you DESERVE a punch to the face with a reality check stating "YOU DESERVED THAT".

/end rant

Yea I totally screwed that saying up.... Just fixed. ROFL!

reply to post by kozmo


I completely agree with your premise. I was just trying to show that the "entitlement society" does not encompass just the younger generation, but, all generations.That this problem is across the board, not just one age group / race / culture.

Although unlikely, I hope that some day we can all put our petty differences aside and focus on what we share in common, a need to survive and flourish. Not in a socialistic / communistic type of way, but in a way that we stop focusing on what separates us, because that is all I see when these types of conversations pop up. The common people VS the common people, just the way our politicians want it to be.


Peace.

ketsuko
reply to post by Boadicea

 

Well, I agree that you have the right to do whatever you can to safeguard your own health.

I also agree that government needs to get our of health care by and large.

I also agree that there are far better systems than both single payer and insurance subsidized. For one thing, I think a single, catastrophic policy along with a system of HSAs that are cumulative and can be invested as the individual wishes to grow even more as they build up (Singapore has this plan). You use your HSA to pay for your regular, non-catastrophic care out of pocket and you buy directly from the providers so you shop around. I also posit that you could even have a system of policy riders for chronic care that could be added to your catastrophic plan for extra charge.

Then, tort reform and other sensible reforms like regulatory reforms to help make it easier to do medical research. Some trade reform so that we can stop subsidizing the rest of the world with our drug costs. Things like that.

I agree with all of your suggestions, and I think that's exactly the kind of thinking we need to fix the underlying causes of our nation's health care woes. The agencies, and their rules/regulations have been hijacked for corporate and political interests -- not our best interests. As is wont to happen because that is the nature of the beast: power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Once they are given (and/or take) that power and control over us, whatever they can do FOR you, they can (and will) do TO you.

I'm curious tho about your comment that we have the right to "safeguard" our health, but you stop short of affirming our right to heal ourselves. Why is that? Where would you draw the line? Should we be required to seek professional medical attention for every cut and bruise... every sniffle and sneeze... every ache and pain? (I don't mean to sound mocking or facetious; I'm just using extremes to make myself clear.) Likewise, should I be allowed to treat my own ear infections with peroxide and colloidal silver? Or must I seek professional medical attention and take synthetic pharmaceuticals? One of my kids is deathly allergic to penicillin and other pharmaceutical antibiotics; should such people be forced to take their chances with synthetic pharmaceuticals? Should HSAs be allowed to cover alternative treatments, not "prescribed" by a doctor or other medical professional?

I ask because I think such questions must be answered and established before we can have any meaningful health care reform in this nation, but such issues have been roundly ignored in Congress and elsewhere. In fact, I believe a "Patient's Bill of Rights" should be the first priority. Generally speaking, I would much rather empower people to take care of themselves to the greatest extent possible, rather than forcing us to be dependent on others. I would do this primarily thru education, but also by making healing products and treatments as readily available as possible. For many reasons (none good), that power and resourcefulness is increasingly being denied us.

Krazysh0t
Great another thread where old people can "tsk tsk" at the younger people for the problems that they [older people] created...

Just quoting this again, because now I'm seriously annoyed at some of the posters in this thread. This has literally become a "bash the young people" thread.

No it isn't. This one lady that I posted about, was young and naive. And she was taken advantage of for this by our smooth talking salesman in chief. Yes she was a victim also. But we are all paying the price for her using "faith" vs. common sense. She is just an example of many others like her out there and age has no boundaries on this one. Next I am wondering if we will see the ones that voted strictly for color in the news whining next. And people of all colors were enthralled with this idea.

My biggest point here is that unless you take the time to know what you are voting for, then don't vote. Some of these people I have seen in the news I wondered how they managed to get the time to look up from their Ipads. A vote is a big deal.

Obama is a fast talking con man and some got burned. But lordy be, how did he manage to get the footing to con an entire country to its knees! This is what we should be wondering about.

elouina
So you say healthcare should be free for all? So where, may I ask should this money for free or nearly free insurance come from? Someone ultimately has to pay for it somewhere. You do realize that your state will be paying for the free medicaid individuals in a couple of years. So in this case it will be paid for by state taxes, which will eventually have to go up.

Boy....way to be a party pooper. You mean someone actually has to pay for free things???? What???

Just goes to show you the mentality of some people. As long as "somebody" aka not me, pays for it, it's doesn't cost anything. Maybe a "Free" job is what they are looking for too, you know the one where "somebody" pays you for doing nothing.

So far it seems like most of the signups for the ACA have been resulting in Medicaid signups. If that trend continues that will mean that things are going to get very scary. The whole of the ACA is predicated on having everyone signup, if young people don't signup or more people choose to take their chances with penalties, the whole system could get out of whack in a really short period. Less people signing up would mean higher rates for all those who do sign up, as the "pool" of expected money wouldn't be there.

Right now the penalties aren't so significant that that you would sign up rather than pay a penalty. Suddenly the ACA starts costing MORE than anticipated for individuals (big shock there) and takes in less money than anticipated. Like I said, that's a bad outcome.

The whole of the ACA is just a stepping stone to a single payer system, the architects of it have even told us so, we just don't really listen to them. They didn't want the ACA in it's current form, they wanted single payer. What makes anyone think that maybe this whole ACA has been a setup to make single payer look like the "solution"?

Having the funding mechanism of the ACA be run by the IRS, isn't a mistake, they know exactly what they are doing, we are just oblivious to it.

Health Care needs reform, the ACA wasn't the reform that was needed. If every family's health care costs dropped by $2,500 a year, like the President claimed, people wouldn't be bitching about it.

Show the American People the money. If President Obama could do that (show every American Family a $2,500 savings in their pocket) you would have even Republicans voting for him. As it stands, a Lot of people are VERY anxious that their costs are going up and health care still isn't "affordable".

reply to post by Boadicea


Because no matter how well you take care of yourself, there will always be some things you will need aid to do. In other words, you will need a doctor eventually. If you break a bone, you'll need a doctor to help you set it. If you get appendicitis, you can hardly conduct your own appendectomy. At those times. you have no right to demand care. You are receiving a service from someone else, and that person is worthy of the hire. Granted, most physicians feel a calling to help heal others, so it's not like they're going to let you die. But they are not your service slave, either.

Most simple ailments we can handle perfectly well on our own.

reply to post by pavil


Not only is it not affordable, but it won't even be available since most doctors and most hospitals are opting out of it as much as possible.

kozmo

This man sums it all up rather nicely!

"I was arguing about the minimum wage with someone recently. Halfway through the discussion, she forcefully proclaimed that “everyone deserves a living wage.”

I hear this idea quite a bit nowadays. There’s a lot of deserving going on, apparently. Everyone seems to deserve everything. We deserve a job. We deserve affordable housing. We deserve a phone. We deserve cable TV. We deserve internet access. We deserve higher wages. We deserve. We deserve. We deserve."

Some People Don't Deserve Living Wage!

Worth reading the whole thing...

Also the flipside of this a LOT of people just don't seem to grasp is:

SOME JOBS JUST AREN'T WORTH MORE THAN THE MINIMUM WAGE.

Really, there are job's that are only worth $7.40/hr. Some people have a hard time grasping that one. If you "deserve" it, go out and EARN it or DO it yourself to make more.

reply to post by pavil


Your labor is only worth as much as what the next guy who comes along is willing to do the job for.

Why do you think there is such a big push for amnesty on both sides?

One side sees an endless voter underclass while the other sees a large pool of unskilled labor that won't demand $15/hour to flip burgers.

ketsuko
reply to post by Boadicea

 

Because no matter how well you take care of yourself, there will always be some things you will need aid to do. In other words, you will need a doctor eventually. If you break a bone, you'll need a doctor to help you set it. If you get appendicitis, you can hardly conduct your own appendectomy.

And this is the beauty of the catastrophic health care insurance. These are the times when allopathic medicine is a true blessing. For the most part, though, we are quite capable of nursing ourselves back to health.

At those times. you have no right to demand care. You are receiving a service from someone else, and that person is worthy of the hire.

Indeed they are, and in a true free market system, their hire would be at a fair-market price -- but that is not what we have now. We can manipulate the laws and the financial structure however we want, but the simple law of supply-and-demand will ultimately prevail. There will always be people in need of such services, but because of the crony capitalism, fewer and fewer people are able to afford it. The demand does not go away; it increases. To ignore this demand takes its toll on all of society in many ways. We can do better. We can address the demand fairly and humanely for the greater good of all, or we can coldly and cruelly put profit before people... benefiting the few at the expense of the many.

What concerns me most, however, is the power and control the corporate/political interests are taking over our health care choices and decisions as they divide-and-conquer. No one will be exempt from their tyranny -- with or without insurance. So as they pit us against each other... arguing over who "deserves" health care... choosing and creating the winners and losers amongst us... they're taking complete control of our food, our medicine, our gardens, our farms, and on and on. Control the food and you control the masses. And I don't trust anyone with that power.

reply to post by Boadicea


Agreed.

And when someone tells you that free market medicine does not work. Point them at the plastic surgery and lasik markets. Both are not covered by any insurance and as such are totally out of pocket. Both have been getting steadily cheaper and more accessible as time has gone on.

elouina
This woman is a 28 year old freelance graphic designer and was looking forward to having health insurance. So she visits the Obamacare website in excited anticipation, and gets, surprise... Sticker Shock. I bet she thought this would be free. So how much does this poor gal have to pay? A whopping $208 a month (Insert sarcasm here..)

You're right, this is a good deal - probably because of the subsidies. Nice to know those in the underground economy - sex workers, pimps, drug dealers, etc - will qualify for these subsidies (not referring to this girl in particular, just a general observation.)

The foolish part of this, though, is I was able to buy high-deductible "catastrophic" insurance, similar to what a lot of people are reporting, long before the ACA rolled out, for both my wife and myself, for a bit less than that per month. What was she waiting for?

People continue to confuse "health insurance" with "health care" - what she was waiting for was, like so many, was she thought she'd get more in benefits than she paid in, that it would be "free."

A long-overdue lesson in how insurance works, and that "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch."

reply to post by ketsuko


Excellent examples -- thank you.

You gave me a "doh!" moment tho, because I often use eyeglasses/contact lenses as an example of how the free market works in the healthcare paradigm, but never thought to include Lasik surgery -- doh! And Lasik is a perfect example of how technology has continued to progress in the field, even without government subsidization/hyper-regulation.

Another example of the free market at its best is the "nutriceutical" industry -- nutritional supplements. Their research and development is seldom government subsidized; it comes from their own profits, which come from supplying a demand. They produce what people want and need and are willing to pay for. If their products did not produce the wanted beneficial results, there would be no demand and the industry would implode. People often turn to nutriceuticals when pharmaceuticals are not an option, either due to unpleasant side effects, or because they don't work, or they are too expensive. And yet, most nutritional supplements are a fraction of the cost of pharmaceuticals. The free market at work. Go figure

reply to post by elouina


$208 a month? Damn, that's not bad at all. What's she whining about?

pavil

Boy....way to be a party pooper. You mean someone actually has to pay for free things???? What???

Just goes to show you the mentality of some people. As long as "somebody" aka not me, pays for it, it's doesn't cost anything. Maybe a "Free" job is what they are looking for too, you know the one where "somebody" pays you for doing nothing.

So far it seems like most of the signups for the ACA have been resulting in Medicaid signups. If that trend continues that will mean that things are going to get very scary. The whole of the ACA is predicated on having everyone signup, if young people don't signup or more people choose to take their chances with penalties, the whole system could get out of whack in a really short period. Less people signing up would mean higher rates for all those who do sign up, as the "pool" of expected money wouldn't be there.

Health Care needs reform, the ACA wasn't the reform that was needed. If every family's health care costs dropped by $2,500 a year, like the President claimed, people wouldn't be bitching about it.

LOL... At least some here get this. You don't know how many people I tried explaining this to.

Speaking of Medicaid, I come from a penny pinching blue state. And our Mayor knew better than to sign up for this. I mean we could end up with State taxes that parallel our Federal taxes. Our state is against the welfare state. And will even go so far as finding you a well paying job. (Well paying since part of your paycheck actually comes from the state.)

And most definitely healthcare is the right idea, we just got stuck with the wrong plan. I was imagining more of an optional plan where people got in on a national poll of people. Where numbers and competition count for something. Along with this cost containment and laws regulating pre-exsisting conditions etc... Couldn't they have tried something less drastic to begin with?

And to your last statement, yes we were conned. Nothing that concerned the actual price was accurate. they shouldn't be able to get away with this. We should demand all or nothing.