Biblical Reasoning - What frustrates you most?

There seems to be a great deal of animosity on the internet against the way biblical wisdom is applied to our concepts of truth. By 'our', I am referring to the average human being living on Earth. If you think it through, compared to the wisdom of the Ancient of Days, we are at a loss to really see the truth of our words, let alone those of God. If the Bible is correct, then we live a life and must be born again. We may or may not be born again into a new person. How can we know? If we are born again, as I suggest in many of my threads, the body (temple) has a veil over it. This suggests that we must temporarily (or permanently) forget our previous memories. This adds to our handicap of reason and understanding. Each new life would reflect a do-over and reset of the last.

In the last weeks, I have made several threads mirroring the books for Dummies. This was my attempt to put a simple rendering of my own theology into a form that is easily understood. I did this for myself as much as others. I like to refer to my own concise thoughts when commenting to others. A link saves the time of typing pages of information.

These threads seem to have struck a nerve with a few people. By dummies, I am referring to what I said above. At best, we are each working on an IQ scale from 100-180. Average is 85-120, but I give ATS readers a higher average than most. Compared to God, what would our IQ appear to be? Essentially, we are a bunch of dummies. All of us. I include myself in this as well. God is simply beyond our capacity to conceive if we are honest about it. There is no comparison to our own intellects if we consider how old God must be. Infinity is a long time. Even 7,000 years is stretch of time. His title, Ancient of Days, seems to say it all.

I put this in the rant section to give a voice to the humble philosopher in us all. I have my own opinions as you can read in my threads. I would like to hear yours. What eats your grape Gilbert? By calling you Gilbert, it is in the best sense possible. We are all blind men describing fire here.

In this thread, feel free to rant your frustrations against the reasoning of the Bible. I will be the advocate for God using scripture and links to my previous reasoning as a test of those thoughts. I will keep my word few aside from links of what I have previously reasoned to be true. In the middle, what would our combined reasoning suggest about these verses?

Isaiah 55

6 Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10 As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

Are God's ways superior to our own?

NOTE and AMENDED - I decided to use my own thoughts, but keep them few.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

I have my own opinions as you can read in my threads. I would like to hear yours. What eats your grape Gilbert?

I'll play...

what erks me is that people attempt to connect the words of Jesus with the words of the imposter of the OT... One speaks of love for humanity, and the other while speaking similar words... shows he has no love for his so called "Creations"... Which is shown all through out the OT by the killing of innocents, the advocating of rape and torture... and a "do what I say not what I do" attitude...

Jesus led by example... The OT God goes back on his own words...

Jesus showed the true path... then along comes Paul, and pulls his readers back to the older ways...

Personally, the connections Christians make between these two sets of books boarders on ridiculous at times...

Thus my grape is eaten... over and over again

reply to post by Akragon


I will amend the OP to allow me to express my own view, but keep my words few. I will change the OP slightly in a second. Good comments by the way. How did I know you would be the first to comment?

As often is the case, we confuse what we know with the truth of the matter. Is it possible you are right, but at the same time are missing why? My thought on this here: Son of God for Dummies

I won't defend my position here, but I will tell you that I think the LORD of the OT is the Son of God being raised by the Father. From Adam to Adam Last, the Son is learning to fulfill his position, just as your children will learn from you as they grow. Down the line, they raise children. Job 19 stated that the root of the problem lies in the Redeemer from the beginning. By this, you are correct, but so is the Bible in connecting the overall story. No debate needed here. Your view is valid, but there is more we do not see. Again, we are a bunch of dummies. What if the Son of God is veiled as well? Have you ever thought about the fact that this is a mandate for all life aside from God Himself. God would then be the one on the other side of the image veiling and testing Himself, but unaware that it is taking place until the end.

Again, how can we know? What is the definition of a simulation?

This guy has an interesting perspective. Again, the excluded middle is the necessity of the veil. Just my opinion. I don't necessarily advocate this video as truth. I show it as a parallel to your own view. He uses the Gospel of the Holy Twelve. I do not agree with this. His view is founded on a document of questionable accuracy. This points out even more problems for us as humans. We simply do not have the ability to trust the documents we have. What IQ does it take to sort it all out? There, I have my own grip Gilbert.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

How did I know you would be the first to comment?

Likely because I always follow your threads my friend... You are one of the few religious members on this forum that really make me think with what you write... and our views are similar in many aspects.

Personally I believe the solution to this issue lies within the gnostic texts... They were the first to point out the flaws of the OT God... clearly showing my exact issues with said book... and forcing me to look deeper into the problem.

It is believed that Marcion wrote what is aptly named "Antithesis" which points out the flaws and inconsistencies between the Father of Jesus and the God of the OT...

I believe this line of thinking rocked the orthodox world to its core... so much so that the church needed to dispose of the gnostic beliefs, its people, and all of their writing to cover up this truth...

For example...

Luke 6:43
For an evil tree bringeth forth not good fruit; neither does a good tree bring forth evil fruit. For every tree is known by his own fruit.

But what of this tree?

Isaiah 45:6
I am the Lord, and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil...

gnosis.org...

Truth can not be hidden, it shines like the morning sun on the world...

And lets not forget Jesus also said specifically... all that came before me were thieves and robbers...

That is truth my friend... and it applies to ALL that came before him... in other words... The OT God, and his followers

S&F by the way... as per usual

reply to post by Akragon


That is an interesting view of the Gnostic reflection. I have studied this on and off. The Nag Hammadi book on my shelf comes out now and again. It's a mind melt though. Seems to be in code most of the time. What really gets interesting is when you start to define the words in their texts.

I have noticed what you are saying before, but the part of the Gnostic view that intrigues me is the image of Sophia and its parallel to Mother in Hebrew. The story of Sophia and her fall seems to be a good connection to what is missing in the Bible when it calls the Mother the Holy Spirit. Now, don't confuse what I say for belief. My intuition makes the connection. Than again, we are all a bunch of Gilberts here. Our intellect is throttled to keep us from seeing beyond the wall. We are a huge grouping of Humpty Dumpty's with broken shells. We tried to peek over the wall and look what happened.

How smart was Adam do you suspect? How many names did he know from nature? I had trouble with this in Biology class. What would it be like to get to the end of 900+ years with a mind like his? We cannot compare. Even with that intellect, he still made the wrong choice. Or was it the wrong choice?

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I just wanted to say, I love the OT....it's like a Sci-Fi Horror novel.

Genesis, God's 'spirit' (aka Spacecraft) hovered over the waters of our Planet.
Genesis, God and his brethren say 'Let US make man in OUR image'
Genesis, Gods Alien brethren come and mate with human women to create Giants
Exodus, God comes down in his spacecraft and lands on Mount Sinai. Speaks with Moses and warns Moses that his people are not to see his spacecraft otherwise they will have to be killed. No witnesses.
Exodus, God decrees that you are not to make images of that which you see in the heavens, on Land, or in the Waters.....because they don't want evidence of their spacecraft on Earth....it would throw their plans out of whack. Remember, no witnesses. No evidence.
Numbers, Moses sends scouts to scout promised land, scouts return stating one area 'consumes it's inhabitants' and has Giants.
Ezekiel, Ezekiel describes Gods spacecraft, 'creatures' and all. Couldn't make a picture though....that's against the law of God.
Isaiah, 'Lord of Hosts' commands an Army of Giants from another planet in outer space who are coming to destroy the world and rape your children.

Like I said, I love the OT.

The NT has only the one Alien abduction.....When Jesus is taken up into the sky, and the disciples looking to the sky were drawing too much attention to what happened so two aliens in white come along and tell them 'Why are you looking in the sky? He will come back the way he went'.

reply to post by Akragon


I'm just curious how it is that you think Paul pulls readers of the NT back into the old ways of the OT? In my own experiences, I have found Paul's writings to be extremely comforting during times of personal crisis. Romans especially has helped me to cope with what it means to struggle with daily life and it's temptations while trying to become a better person (and sometimes failing).

Could you expand on how you have drawn that connection?

reply to post by LightAssassin


Yes. I like your perspective. Don't forget disclosure in Ephesians:

Ephesians 3

7 I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God’s grace given me through the working of his power. 8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. 13 I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

A Prayer for the Ephesians

14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom every family[a] in heaven and on earth derives its name.

Notice. God held the mystery since the beginning. There are families in heaven. God's wisdom will be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms through us here on Earth. I agree that it is beyond our conception to really image such things. It's a great story and too complicated to be untrue.

Again, I just wish we could live long enough to understand it better. A brighter intellect would help. Past memories would help. Just a better memory would help. I forget so much.

DeadSeraph
reply to post by Akragon

 

I'm just curious how it is that you think Paul pulls readers of the NT back into the old ways of the OT? In my own experiences, I have found Paul's writings to be extremely comforting during times of personal crisis. Romans especially has helped me to cope with what it means to struggle with daily life and it's temptations while trying to become a better person (and sometimes failing).

Could you expand on how you have drawn that connection?

edit on 3-11-2013 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

I agree with you on this. Paul is a good expansion of the gospel to our minds. Aside from Paul, we would not understand Jesus and the connection to Grace and Mercy. I get what you are saying. I know Akragon and I disagree on this. My view is that the ENTIRE Bible is accurate. We are the dummies that do not get it.

Paul taught us that we cannot meet the demands of the cup Christ carried for us. In this, I agree with Paul.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Probably a combination of mistrusting Paul and his writing, and utter disgust for the OT God I suppose...

The Pharisee turned believer, which never speaks a word of the Masters teachings.

Paul seems to use the OT as a guidebook as opposed to Jesus who he claims he met on his travels to Damascus...

In any case its just my opinion for what its worth...

Means nothing really... I don't deal with Paul

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Ah, now that's cool.....thanks for that. Yes, heavenly 'families'. It sounds like maybe we were created to attempt to set a base level of universal behaviour for other 'heavenly races' to live by .....but the OT God who gave the original rules also allowed his power and rule to overcome him...forgetting the important principles of compassion and forgiveness...maybe?

Who knows what's going on in Outer'space/Other-dimensions?!?!? It's not for us simpletons to know without deep and meaningful meditation and a couple of OBE and Remote viewing sessions into the past.

Akragon
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

Probably a combination of mistrusting Paul and his writing, and utter disgust for the OT God I suppose...

The Pharisee turned believer, which never speaks a word of the Masters teachings.

Paul seems to use the OT as a guidebook as opposed to Jesus who he claims he met on his travels to Damascus...

In any case its just my opinion for what its worth...

Means nothing really... I don't deal with Paul

edit on 3-11-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

To get the message of Jesus, is the book of Isaiah necessary? Is Paul necessary? Jesus message was the requirement to meet God's demands from the OT. We cannot separate this from Jesus message. Again, Paul then shows us how this applies to our inability to accomplish this. We are incapable on our own to bear the cup. What Jesus did was in place of what the OT reveals as our deficiency. Mirror this by the Dummies we are.

If I have a grip in this thread, my reasoning says to complain about our intellect being throttled. Does it need to be this way? Actually, it does. As with all my human reasoning, God's reasoning rises again. What would we do with our knowledge if it were increased? Kill ourselves sooner. Why?

We need the true reasoning of God. It is based on Ancient experience we do not possess. The entire point of why Christ is necessary boils down to the time it takes us to realize the truth. The error must be patched by the Redeemer Himself. God created the error by his reasoning of its necessity. The root of the trouble is not a mistake. It is an instructional design. If we agree or disagree with Paul, it is no matter. God's will has seen the end of the story from the beginning before it began. Paul is part of that history written before it occurred. So am I. So are you. Judge not.

Job 19

25 I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.[h]”

The error is the one the Redeemer patches with the new blood. Judge not. As Job states, the wrath will bring punishment by the sword. Part of this education requires we understand judgment. I could gripe, but I would be wrong. Children need discipline.

LightAssassin
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Ah, now that's cool.....thanks for that. Yes, heavenly 'families'. It sounds like maybe we were created to attempt to set a base level of universal behaviour for other 'heavenly races' to live by .....but the OT God who gave the original rules also allowed his power and rule to overcome him...forgetting the important principles of compassion and forgiveness...maybe?

Who knows what's going on in Outer'space/Other-dimensions?!?!? It's not for us simpletons to know without deep and meaningful meditation and a couple of OBE and Remote viewing sessions into the past.

edit on 3-11-2013 by LightAssassin because: (no reason given)

You are refreshing. Love the avatar as well. When you note that His power and rule overcame Him, this is a reasoning from our perspective. I agree with this in many ways. I also see another side. What did that harsh tyranny reveal to us about leadership? Then again, if you read the words of the Lord closely, He is invariable to the laws that he governs by. Compare this to the result in the NT and you see why. He protects the family and death is merely rebirth to a new life. In the end, he gives us everything, including the harsh realities of what we wish to avoid.

I agree, it is really hard to read 1 and 2 Samuel and Judges 19. Difficult to stomach. I would not have made those choices, but then again, I make horrible choices every day. We all act contrary to truth most of the time. Being human is the image we bear from the one that created us. What does this mean?

I knew this thread would be perplexing.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

To get the message of Jesus, is the book of Isaiah necessary?

Nope...

Is Paul necessary?

I would say... unnecessary

Jesus message was the requirement to meet God's demands from the OT.

I disagree... Jesus only used the OT to relate to those he was trying to teach... IF the OT never existed, and Jesus still came he would not have needed said book to get his ideas across... He was "Taught" Judaism from a child... he grew up with it... and thus needed to use "some" of it in order to convince his followers he was the "Son of God"

Yet if you read closely you will clearly see he was a horrible practitioner of that particular religion... He broke laws, he changed rules... He called himself the Son of God which is utter blasphemy coming from a Judaic perspective... which subsequently got him executed.

We cannot separate this from Jesus message. Again, Paul then shows us how this applies to our inability to accomplish this.

Be perfect... as your father in heaven is perfect...

I disagree once again brother...

We are incapable on our own to bear the cup.

Our cup is not the same as the Lords... IF we can not bear our own cup we have no chance at all.... To each man a different cup is given... what one does with what he is given is what matters.

Children need discipline.

I agree... but what they do not need is self loathing...fear... or hatred

Is better to explain something to a child as a gentile teacher... or kick the childs ass as the OT God would do?

reply to post by Akragon


I value what you have said. I'll think it through.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Thanks for your opinion, I've always appreciated the work you do to try and understand your faith.

reply to post by LightAssassin


oh you missed the one where the phillistines stole the ark of the covenant, were stricken with hemorrhoids (no, i'm not kidding), and returned it, along with little golden molds of their hemorrhoids. methinks someone made a mistake when they translated it.

reply to post by Akragon


here's a theory that kinda wraps that all up for me.

the serpent in the garden is not satan.
when the text says, that old serpent, satan, the devil, it is not talking about
the serpent in the garden. satan was the accuser. what was he accusing? humans.
why was he accusing them? because he didn't like humans. this was his planet (even
says several times, the satan is the god of this world). this was his ball of wax and he
didn't want humans on it, particularly after they became procreative. before that time,
humans were copies of some kind, and probably not human at all. but when they started
making their own babies, that's when the guy that owns the place, went before the divine
council and demanded that if humans were going to be on the planet, their lifespans would
have to be shortened -- because now, they had "knowledge" (knowing = procreative sex).

as far as i can tell -- that is the sumerian god, en.lil
en.lil demanded blood sacrifices as reparations from the humans on his planet.
enki is jesus. he created humans. he is the serpent in the garden.
he has been defending humans, ever since.
he did away with the blood sacrifices. he warned the noah figure about the impending flood,
and gave him instructions on how to survive it. he inherited the planet. now it's his ball of wax

that's my take on it, anyway.

I think being born again just means you've gotten rid of the pride that holds you back from acknowlodging and or accepting God. I think many people inheriently believe in some kind of creator but are scared or too prideful to try and make any attempt at getting to know that God. I think most people face that barier to have to break throw. Just my opinion but I've seen this in so many people. And some eventually do break though it. But often it takes some kind of wake up call in some way before you do so. If you're very comfortable in life, the common mind set is "what do I need God for". Or something like that. But then if something really earth shattering happens it might cause you to seek devine intervention. But to wait around for that isn't a good idea. Like what if you die, then it would be too late to get the wake up call you need. I know don't know, it's easy to talk about but unless you've lived through some crazy scenario that shocks you awake it's hard to just tell someone. But I don't know, I just think it's good to have a spiritual life. If you don't then what the heck are you? All you are is a dead hunk of meat, you're like a zombie off the walking dead. Wake up!

reply to post by undo


Why the assertion that Enki was Jesus?

God said 'Let US make man in OUR image'. I think, if going by your train of thought, God is both Enki and Enlil.

As for everything else you've stated, have a read of this stuff....newly translated from the Ancient Hebrew Bible....it may fill in some more blanks....or at the very least provides some very interesting, highly entertaining and thought-provoking reading.

The Chronicle Project