When Did Matter Make Its First "Choice?"

KellyPrettyBear

akushla99
reply to post by KellyPrettyBear

 

I'll be the first to admit KPB that I include my own as twaddle, specifically as it relates to amorphous questions of another (whether couched as strictly questions or discussion that I should have nominated as answers of belief)...rocks falling off a cliff are moving in a direction...is thier movement choice related, or not?

Twaddle comes in all flavours...

Cheers

Å99

I completely love honesty, thanks for your honesty.

Now for some of my twaddle:

it took me 50 years to come to the Everett-wheeler all
paths exist right now at a minimal state observation.
Actually there's a lot more to it than that.. but nobody
cares for another's twaddle.

What I can't tell you, is how from a limited perspective
everything works. I have big chunks mapped out, but
I can't tell you why an individual rock moves or does
not move...

Now of course from a limited perspective everything
is just a dynamic process interacting with other
dynamic processes.

I suppose the question is, how deep does this dynamic
process go? Is the quantum level deep enough? Is there
a deterministic layer behind the quantum level?
(hidden variables). Are there multiple dimensions
involved? Are we actually in a simulation?

I suppose if I were pressed hard, and had to give my
best explanation of individual transactions or save
my life, I'd say that we just THINK that there are
individual dynamic transactions between real
entities.

However the only thing that in fact 'changes' is the
'pointer' of 'awareness' which chooses to light-up
dormant patterns in the field of all that is possible
and thus give a sense of limited existence, for the
enjoyment of the One observer.

Sometimes the 'lit-up' pattern responds to the pointer
of awareness and identifies with it.. thus feeling
'enlightened', but for the most part the pointer of
awareness will just light up big clumps of pattern
which isn't in fact aware of it's place in things...
some of those clumps generate twaddle and
melodrama and all the excitement inherent
with thinking that one is a being with free will.

Even God watches sitcoms.

Now, is there a scientific, non-anthropomorphized,
non-mystical way to say what I've said? Yes.
I just don't have the brainpower and enough scientific
background to put that in strictly scientific terms.

KPB

So after 50 years we begin to make more & less sense...myself included after 50 years...

God watching sitcoms is probably more where I'm on in this one...seems he also got the iphone cartoon making app up and running...the rocks in the app fall because of gravity engines built into the software of the environment...the question (at a scientific level) stops there...that's where the round-table committee meetings discuss the pros and cons of the next big thing, and how it fits into the little shebang in this tiny corner that we are currently scientifically aware of - cosmos expanding into nothingness...just because...?

Å99

Serdgiam
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

So, when do you think was the first collection of matter/organism/observer|action/etc that actively sought out an exchange of energy in the current timeline of our material universe?

The way I see it, it was most likely a very simple "organism" that in the search for food/energy went against the current (free will or not). In doing so, it changed its trajectory, or pattern, according to its own needs rather than to the forces at play with other collections of matter.

edit on 2-11-2013 by Serdgiam because: (no reason given)

I think they were generated in an image (Archetypes) first and placed into one seed (Son of God). They were then planted into the Garden in Genesis 2. If we are a digital hologram, then the material was formless first, then seeded with life after. Genesis is accurate to what Science observes.

In other words, all at once.

akushla99
[quote

So after 50 years we begin to make more & less sense...myself included after 50 years...

God watching sitcoms is probably more where I'm on in this one...seems he also got the iphone cartoon making app up and running...the rocks in the app fall because of gravity engines built into the software of the environment...the question (at a scientific level) stops there...that's where the round-table committee meetings discuss the pros and cons of the next big thing, and how it fits into the little shebang in this tiny corner that we are currently scientifically aware of - cosmos expanding into nothingness...just because...?

Å99

Well in general I don't talk at this level.. it just makes the natives restless.

Probably the biggest realization I've ever had, was when the wordless impression
came from 'down on high' : "If you love me, play my game with me". This was
after I came back from a 'little death' - NirvaKalpa Samahdi to be technical.
It took me days to get sensation back in my body.. to get the muscles to work
again..

Now how can I say no to the only thing which actually exists? So I pretend that
all these temporary but permanent beings exist, and I love them.. I put up no
barriers between me and them...I let them all intermingle with me, and me
intermingle with them.. good evil... poorly dressed.. wishing me to go to hell..
I seem to feel them all.. and I want to love them all... they are all just ripples
in matter responding to the 'pointer' of 'awareness' just like me..

I'll play... I'll play the mystical game.. the scientific game.. the people who want
to become enlightened game.. now.. even though these are games.. Awareness
loves and laughs and giggles.. and blows up universes.. and pops up universes
many per second.

Who am I to say no to such a delightful playmate?

KPB

KellyPrettyBear

akushla99
[quote

So after 50 years we begin to make more & less sense...myself included after 50 years...

God watching sitcoms is probably more where I'm on in this one...seems he also got the iphone cartoon making app up and running...the rocks in the app fall because of gravity engines built into the software of the environment...the question (at a scientific level) stops there...that's where the round-table committee meetings discuss the pros and cons of the next big thing, and how it fits into the little shebang in this tiny corner that we are currently scientifically aware of - cosmos expanding into nothingness...just because...?

Å99

Well in general I don't talk at this level.. it just makes the natives restless.

Probably the biggest realization I've ever had, was when the wordless impression
came from 'down on high' : "If you love me, play my game with me". This was
after I came back from a 'little death' - NirvaKalpa Samahdi to be technical.
It took me days to get sensation back in my body.. to get the muscles to work
again..

Now how can I say no to the only thing which actually exists? So I pretend that
all these temporary but permanent beings exist, and I love them.. I put up no
barriers between me and them...I let them all intermingle with me, and me
intermingle with them.. good evil... poorly dressed.. wishing me to go to hell..
I seem to feel them all.. and I want to love them all... they are all just ripples
in matter responding to the 'pointer' of 'awareness' just like me..

I'll play... I'll play the mystical game.. the scientific game.. the people who want
to become enlightened game.. now.. even though these are games.. Awareness
loves and laughs and giggles.. and blows up universes.. and pops up universes
many per second.

Who am I to say no to such a delightful playmate?

KPB

I'm on the dancefloor...my coiffe may not be perfect (head bobbing and all) but I always put my best shoes on...

Cheers

Å99

reply to post by Serdgiam


I think the idea of thinking matter is a profound one. It is an idea that makes more sense than immaterial entities such as "mind" or "consciousness".

To think that at one point, a clump of stuff, or what we might call matter, began to think and make choices, to decide, is extremely profound, as it might show that life, and even humanity, is the beginning of a new type of matter, and the kernel of a new universe.

reply to post by Aphorism


Albert Einstein was quoted as saying “the field is the sole governing agency of the particle”.
What thoughts come to mind when hearing this? What does it mean?

reply to post by Serdgiam


It's pretty weird that so many cannot even comprehend your question.

My answer: Awareness, will, and form has always existed - it is the Trinity; and the laws of physics did not create the Trinity, the Trinity created the laws of physics.

I think you are thinking in reverse of the real order of operations because you do not see that inanimate objects are bound to will - you call it a governing force, instead of a governing will.

Think of it like this: If it reacts, it must have awareness of the thing it is reacting to, and it must have the will to react (not necessarily its own will, but the will of someone) - otherwise, it is inert. Ability, or actions, can only come from the will of someone. Thus, the ability to choose, must have existed before choice.

Father = awareness + will + form
Holy Ghost = will + form + awareness
Son = form + awareness + will

Do you see the cycle?

You should research the core principles of all the religions you can find. Eventually, it'll click in your mind, and you'll see what everyone has been talking about when they mention spirit/will, awareness/mind, and form/body. It is basically the same fundamental principles but different entities are in charge of those principles.

The first choice was probably the choice to see the differences between awareness, will, and form - to see the Trinity as it exists.

reply to post by Bleeeeep


I agreeeee ( ) with the first sentiment, the rest goes on to make many assumptions about what I believe, what I have studied, and where I am coming from on this.

I think the real issue is that;

1) I didnt formulate my question that clearly. I literally just said to myself "Hey, I wonder what some of the people on ATS think about this" and then posted.

2) Despite what people are thinking, this is not a subject which is really approached in any religions, or in any scientific study that I am aware of. I guess it is more subtle of a point than many people are used to hearing.

And since this thread wasnt moved, I will approach it from a more metaphysical bent (since it seems philosophy is a misnomor in this forum title). Its not some important thing to me, it is simply a point of curiosity.

*cue celestial chimes*

Before, after, and during all of time there is, was, and will be a timeless medium. Within this timeless medium a bubble doth formed from a particle and cavitated. To maintain the full data packets of the particle, two waves were spawned that give access/fullness to the full data packet at any given "time." In this, duality was created within what we know as the physical realm. Upon this creation, relativity and time became relevant, but only within the material world.

As these waves fractaled out through the medium of the cavitated bubble of space-time (torus, at this point), they took paths determined by different densities, reflections, refractions, collisions, and attractions. Their end point is nigh certain, back to the timeless medium from which they came. However, in this medium of space time, they linger as dust pollen in the air. From the timeless medium, it all happens "at once," however, within the torus of space-time, these things happen over-time. Both time and timeless exist simultaneously in this fashion. *ALL* things are a relevant part of creation, whether they are mindful of time or exist outside of it.

As these waves continued to fractal out, according to the foundational patterns of the universe set in place by "X" (fill the in the blank according to your ideology), the spin of returning to the timeless medium took shape like water circling a drain. As it seeped its way out of the membrane, or surface tension, of the time filled torus.. they started to create "dams" of matter around areas that had the highest flow. Areas that could not hold back the forces at hand turned into what we currently call "black holes."

Over time, these "dams" started to form into planets, galaxies, and many of the celestial objects we see. All essentially circling the drain back into the timeless medium, but being "slowed" down according to the maximum celerity of the medium of space-time.

At a certain point, some of these collected material objects did something different. Some went against the flow. Eventually, these material objects were able to do everything from seek out food, to jump, to make love, make war, and even seek the source of themselves. While this pattern was not only accounted for and expected, there came a point in space and time where this happened. It only seemed to occur with certain collections of matter, and seemingly only at certain scales. We do not witness a comet suddenly turn 90 degrees to the right, and yet, bacteria is able to do so. Whats the difference? And..

Within the torus filled with space-time, when was the first moment of this and what processes lead to it?

reply to post by Serdgiam


Perhaps decision and choice are the wrong choice of words and life is just a chain reaction.

And I daresay...no collection of mass decided to do anything before that initial animating spark.

midicon
life is just a chain reaction.

I would agree with that. Still doesnt explain the concept I am asking about, only the context.

And I daresay...no collection of mass decided to do anything before that initial animating spark

Fair enough.

If by "initial animating spark" you mean the beginning of the physical universe, then at what point along the timeline do planets jump up and out of their orbit? Do you feel Earth could just randomly stop orbiting the Sun without some type of collision? Keeping in mind, a collision which had enough energetic force to knock us out of the Sun's gravity well would very likely destroy the planet in the process!

If by "initial animating spark" you mean the creation of mankind by "X", then why are bacteria able to exhibit the same behavior? Do you feel that a new pattern was introduced that trickled down, if this was the case?

reply to post by Serdgiam


Maybe you have it the wrong way round and observation comes before the material universe..

reply to post by purplemer


I feel observation exists outside and within the material universe. So, I would say it exists before, during, and after.

Thats not really the topic though.

Oh well

Serdgiam
At what point did matter make its first "decision?" And what was the process that enabled such a movement?

We see many things, including us, that are bound to the laws of nature. However, even a child can defy gravity by jumping, even if only for a moment.

There had to be that first moment where a collection of matter decided that it would go in a different direction than the overall laws of physics would have suggested up to that point.

You hit the nail on the head...it is called gravity. If gravity was not exactly as it is in our universe we would have a very different universe and we would not be here.

What I don't understand is your "decision" point. When does a rain drop decide to fall to earth?

Xtrozero
When does a rain drop decide to fall to earth?

Ok, lets change the word "decision" to "flabbledeefloo."

When that rain drop falls to Earth, does it flabbledeefloo and jump back up into the air repeatedly after it has touched the ground?

We have the waveform that is created from impact, and one could say it is determined by scale with various parameters. In this way, if we take a look at a droplet of water hitting a pool of water, we can see a "jumping" of sorts, but it dies down explicitly according to a certain pattern of decay.

Why is the waveform for certain objects seemingly different than others? Matter in the form of a human can literally do it for decades upon decades whereas objects of different scales (both larger and smaller) do not seem to exhibit this pattern/ability.

Serdgiam
Why is the waveform for certain objects seemingly different than others? Matter in the form of a human can literally do it for decades upon decades whereas objects of different scales (both larger and smaller) do not seem to exhibit this pattern/ability.

What is it that humans do for decades? Is it the same thing a rock can do for billions of years? I do not understand your point, other than matter is always changing or being converted to different matter.

reply to post by Serdgiam

It is more of a "given" through whatever ideology is supported by the exploring individual.

The "given" is our limited perspective from the "third dimension" as its called that can't fathom endless space. From that perspective we have to give everything a beginning. So we need a first this or that when really its always been there.

Without beginning or end.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Well, its a variety of different things. In the post to you though, the concept was jumping.

And no, I have never seen a rock jump up and down for decades on end in the same spot.

If you have, be sure to record it. I am sure the world, including myself, would be quite interested in something so anomalous!

intrptr
The "given" is our limited perspective from the "third dimension" as its called that can't fathom endless space. From that perspective we have to give everything a beginning. So we need a first this or that when really its always been there.

So, our bodies have always been there/here in its exact form since the beginning of time?

I would have to disagree with that entirely. While the matter that makes up our bodies has indeed done so, it changes form. And certain forms seem to be able to exhibit certain patterns that appear, culturally, as the ability to flabbledeefloo (see post above for clarification).

You are speaking of something different from the postulated concept.

At what point along the time line, within the confines of time, did matter first take a form that could exhibit the specific pattern of flabbledeefloo?

Edit: A similar question would be, at what point along the timeline did planets start to form into spherical shapes and why?

The ability to flabbledeefloo may very well exist beyond time, however, there was a point in time and space that a specific gathering of material was able to make use out of this. When was this?

reply to post by Serdgiam


Reverse your understanding... Waves will not move without will and they will form nothing without awareness of will. The rules of reality are created by God. The motion of the images are willed.

Think of it like a mind manifesting mental images as it creates concepts with its will and awareness. This understanding is closer to what is happening.

You are trying to say the mental images create the mind instead of the other way around.

While we can say mental images of our forefathers do create their sons' minds, their minds were first. Mind > will > body ... in that order. Our bodies are the images of our forefathers... evolution byway of [good] concept reproduction.

reply to post by Serdgiam

So, our bodies have always been there/here in its exact form since the beginning of time?

I simply meant the Universe has always been here. It had no "beginning" and it will never "end". Thats what infinity means.

You are speaking of something different from the postulated concept.

You are looking at it from the third dimension.

At what point along the time line, within the confines of time, did matter first take a form that could exhibit the specific pattern of flabbledeefloo?

There is no "time". Man invented that.

Edit: A similar question would be, at what point along the timeline did planets start to form into spherical shapes and why?

That happens "all the time" (to put it in your terms).

The ability to flabbledeefloo may very well exist beyond time, however, there was a point in time and space that a specific gathering of material was able to make use out of this. When was this?

Its an ongoing process.

Forever is forever. As far as I know, the concept of "forever" has not been redefined to mean 13.4 Billion years (the current scientifically defined age of the Universe).