Salvation for Dummies - The hypocrisy of the Self-Righteous Christian

reply to post by EnochWasRight


So we are sin free above and sinful below? What is above and below though? Where is the divide there?

I'll give you my interpretation. The above is the mind and Spirit, the below is our bodies and physical existence. Sin manifests in the physical, which is why you say we are sinful below.

If we are both sinful and sinless, how are we any different from Jesus? The thing is, you are confusing Jesus with being the sole owner of consciousness, a.k.a. heaven. He is not the sole owner.

You are confusing him with being the loaf, he is not, he is a slice of the loaf like the rest of us. God is the loaf, we are the slices of God. The outer crust is physical existence, the "meat" of the loaf is the Spirit of consciousness, a.k.a. "the strength of the house", the thing that Jesus represents in the bible.

You have been trapped in the traditions of men. You are deep within their rabbit hole, and I'm afraid you will never get out. They have twisted your mind to think leaving the hole is dangerous. Come to the light outside of the hole, stop letting them trap you with their word games, because they are all lies.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

When a Christian proclaims salvation in Christ, we are not demonstrating this salvation as freedom from sin. This is a mistaken view that the unbelieving world holds. We are not free from sin any more than an Atheist.

Actually, what we gain is the ability to resist committing sins. After you are made into a new creature in Christ and embrace the transformation you become more resistant to sin whereas before you would be more apt to run gleefully to do wrong. Our new spirit wars with the old flesh which is why the old flesh has to die. Jesus gives a nice parable about this when he speaks about not putting new wine into old wine skins, or old wine into new wine skins.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


This is a load of nonsense. Believing something does not automatically mean you do good things, and not believing something does not automatically mean you do bad things. I'm sure most of those people who fought in the Crusades believed, yet they still went and killed thousands of people. Why? Because the people that ran your version of faith back then ordered them to do so.

Nonsense, pure and utter garbage. Atheists are more moral than most Christians in most cases because they accept people for who they are, as are Buddhists and Hindus. Your belief has nothing to do with doing what's right. One has to do with actions, the other doesn't.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

If we are both sinful and sinless, how are we any different from Jesus?

He was sinless above and below. We are individuation from the first. Yes, he is entangled with us, but not us. We are one loaf because the main ingredient (The Wheat Head) is what makes bread. There are many comparisons here, but symbolism is a generalization to give the mind a picture to engage the thought. The entire reason for creation is individuation from the first. The law causes sin by restriction. It is necessary to teach.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


In what way was he sinless below?

Matthew 5
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus says right here that temptation is sin, even if you do not go through with the act itself. Remember Jesus being tempted by the devil? If he was tempted, he was committing a sin by his own words. Though he didn't give in to the devil's offer, he was still tempted by them.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

You are confusing him with being the loaf, he is not, he is a slice of the loaf like the rest of us. God is the loaf, we are the slices of God.

I think scripture is clear on this. Father (Aleph Bet) created all things using the Word. This is why the bread analogy works. All things in nature are a mirror to this process. All things in nature a parables to what is stated in this verse set below:

1) Invisible
2) Image
3) FIRST BORN
4) Everything is IN him
5) All things created through and for the Word
6) HE is before all things.
7) All things hold together by Him

He is not just another slice. He is the loaf itself. God created with letters. Christ is the Word that was written into the Mother (Aleph Mem). Water is the catalyst, just like when making bread bread. Yeast is leaven, which is what Christ endured for us on the cross. He took on the leaven so we can be free from it, but not until the end comes. Salvation from this oven requires baking of the bread. As you can read in Genesis 40, you do not want to be the one doing the baking. Instead, you bear the cup.

Colossians 1

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by Enochwasright
Do you sin? If the answer is a truthful yes, then you have a fallen spirit.

Well, I haven’t broken any of the Ten commandments, since I first received the Holy Spirit, but I did get angry once with a friend, but for a good reason.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit doesn’t turn you into a mindless robot, who never sins. The Holy Spirit is described as the Helper and the advocate, and that’s exactly what it does i.e. it helps you, with your sins.

But it does not remove all sin, that you will or could ever do, because it leaves you with your own free will intact. What it does do though, is change your perspective, and renews your mind, which helps you to make a change, which is what salvation and walking a righteous path, are really all about.

So again you can’t be correct, because receiving the Holy Spirit, does not mean you will never sin, or that you have a fallen spirit just because you happen to sin after receiving it etc…that’s not how it works IMO…

Originally posted by Enochwasright
Until God imparts a Holy Spirit within you, then you do not yet have the new robe (Body) or crown (Mind) mentioned in Revelation.

But receiving the Holy Spirit, is something which happens in this life time, where as the, resurrection of the body comes later. (see my post further down)

Also Jesus says nothing about the receiving the Holy Spirit, requiring a resurrected body first. So I’m not even sure, why your putting the 2 together, in that manner…???

Originally posted by Enochwasright
That crown must be cast on the sea of glass.

What does that even mean…???

Originally posted by Enochwasright
Do you have the influence of the Holy Spirit in the form of teaching today? Yes. As for being born again, you are resurrected from the dead. This is true. Christ was the firstfruits of those who were asleep in the grave. Living beyond the first century requires this. What did Paul say about it?

But again “born again” does not mean resurrected from the dead. It was a metaphor symbolizing a new creation, when one receives the Holy Spirit in this lifetime. Of course, in standard Christianity, one must receive the HS before one can be saved and enter into a new life, via the resurrection. But the latter (Resurrection), is not a pre-requisite of the former (Holy Spirit), it’s the other way around.

Originally posted by Enochwasright
I am glad you believe the words of Christ, but my point about the timeline of salvation, justification and the consummation of the Holy Spirit with man has been thoroughly studied. To be a part of the family of God, you MUST take on the name of Christ. The name is not Christian. The name is the character. To move toward that Holy Spirit you speak of, a person MUST be born again. 1000 years remain. The wicked must be consummated, but in a different way.

Thanks….

But again becoming born again, is something which happens in our lives where living now, it’s not something which happens after the resurrection. Unless you can show where exactly in scripture, this is written…

Anyway, before we go any further, may I ask which Christian denomination you belong to…?

The reason I ask, is because most Christians don’t accept the “Book of Enoch”, as inspired by God.


- JC

lonewolf19792000
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

When a Christian proclaims salvation in Christ, we are not demonstrating this salvation as freedom from sin. This is a mistaken view that the unbelieving world holds. We are not free from sin any more than an Atheist.

Actually, what we gain is the ability to resist committing sins. After you are made into a new creature in Christ and embrace the transformation you become more resistant to sin whereas before you would be more apt to run gleefully to do wrong. Our new spirit wars with the old flesh which is why the old flesh has to die. Jesus gives a nice parable about this when he speaks about not putting new wine into old wine skins, or old wine into new wine skins.

Yes. I agree with you on this. After faith arrives, our awareness expands beyond self. This is what happens to a baby once they wander from the mother's breast.

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

In what way was he sinless below?

Matthew 5
28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Jesus says right here that temptation is sin, even if you do not go through with the act itself. Remember Jesus being tempted by the devil? If he was tempted, he was committing a sin by his own words. Though he didn't give in to the devil's offer, he was still tempted by them.

I choose to believe the Word of God. The Word says Jesus was unblemished. If not, there was no resurrection and there is no payment for sin.

reply to post by Joecroft

Well, I haven’t broken any of the Ten commandments, since I first received the Holy Spirit, but I did get angry once with a friend, but for a good reason.

Anyway, the Holy Spirit doesn’t turn you into a mindless robot, who never sins. The Holy Spirit is described as the Helper and the advocate, and that’s exactly what it does i.e. it helps you, with your sins.

But it does not remove all sin, that you will or could ever do, because it leaves you with your own free will intact. What it does do though, is change your perspective, and renews your mind, which helps you to make a change, which is what salvation and walking a righteous path, are really all about.

So again you can’t be correct, because receiving the Holy Spirit, does not mean you will never sin, or that you have a fallen spirit just because you happen to sin after receiving it etc…that’s not how it works IMO…

The only reason there is a sin is because there is a law restricting us. Just like Gravity, you are locked on land until you overcome the law. With sin, you are correct in your summation above, but only because the law is removed.

Galatians 3

23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

I have said this before, but the Guardian is a relationship from Greek, Hebrew and Roman culture. A youth was always paired with an older guardian who would teach, guide and protect the younger child. Once the child became of age, the guardian was released from the job. Sin is this guardian for us. We are Children of God and will be until we come of age. That time is the same for everyone. We have 7,000 years of life on this earth. 1000 remain.

reply to post by Joecroft

But receiving the Holy Spirit, is something which happens in this life time, where as the, resurrection of the body comes later. (see my post further down)

Also Jesus says nothing about the receiving the Holy Spirit, requiring a resurrected body first. So I’m not even sure, why your putting the 2 together, in that manner…???

I have shown you this already. What did I show you on this topic? The resurrection started when the dead who were asleep in the grave woke up and rose to new life. This is being born again. Baptism is our immersion into the waters of life so we have the opportunity to repent. Yes, the Spirit of God assists us as a Shepherd, but this is our guardian. We must meet face to face with God and He must be know. This is only possible if we have faith removed. Right now, it is the law being removed. Faith comes now. The Spirit comes when we are with Christ for 1000 years. Listen to Paul and Enoch:

What did Paul say about it?

Acts 24

15 and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16 So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

Keep in mind what was happening here. Paul was a Pharisee. He believed in the resurrection. The Sadducees did not. Paul was on trial before Felix, as a Roman citizen, for this point of contention. He states something here that is telling concerning resurrection. He says that BOTH the righteous and wicked would be raised. BOTH! What does it mean to be born again?

Enoch One covers the same topic in his opening statement:

1 I The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2
living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed.

"...WHO WILL BE LIVING in the day of tribulation." Who will be living? Both the wicked and righteous.

I am glad you believe the words of Christ, but my point about the timeline of salvation, justification and the consummation of the Holy Spirit with man has been thoroughly studied. To be a part of the family of God, you MUST take on the name of Christ. The name is not Christian. The name is the character. To move toward that Holy Spirit you speak of, a person MUST be born again. 1000 years remain. The wicked must be consummated, but in a different way.

ENOCH

’Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who
have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves 12 with them in all their
uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of
their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of
their judgement and of their consummation, till the judgement that is 13 for ever and ever is
consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: (and) 14 to the torment and
the prison in which they shall be confined for ever.

JUDE 1

6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

Again, who must be present to see this judgment? BOTH the righteous and wicked. The text is clear if you take it again like a child. Theology is a box we put God in. God is trying to take us out of that box. I left that box long ago.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

1) Invisible
2) Image
3) FIRST BORN
4) Everything is IN him
5) All things created through and for the Word
6) HE is before all things.
7) All things hold together by Him

Guess who else all these points are true for? You.

1) Your Spirit is invisible, you only see your physical body.

2) Your image

3) You also were the first born because you are the I AM

4) Everything is within you. Everything you see is created within your brain, there is nothing outside of conscious perception.

5) Everything is created through and for you through the process of consciousness.

6) You are before all things because there is nothing outside of conscious perception.

7) Everything holds together within you because your brain creates the reality around you and holds it together. You collapse the wave function, so everything holds together within you.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Unblemished in the above maybe, but so is everyone else. There can be no blemish on consciousness, it is perfect in every way.

If you believed the word then you would see that Jesus was not unblemished in the below because he was tempted by the devil. By Jesus' own words, temptation is a sin and he was tempted. You are choosing to ignore that fact.

EnochWasRight

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Now that you are thinking correctly, I will explain it. Go to Genesis 40. There is a story of the cup bearer and the baker. Where is bread baked? In the oven. Where is that aspect of creation? Deuteronomy 4:19 tells you. It is the refinery of Earth / Egypt. Egypt is a copy of Heaven.

No actually Egypt is simbolic of the carnal life. Please show me where Egypt is a copy of heaven.

guitarplayer

EnochWasRight

3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

Now that you are thinking correctly, I will explain it. Go to Genesis 40. There is a story of the cup bearer and the baker. Where is bread baked? In the oven. Where is that aspect of creation? Deuteronomy 4:19 tells you. It is the refinery of Earth / Egypt. Egypt is a copy of Heaven.

No actually Egypt is simbolic of the carnal life. Please show me where Egypt is a copy of heaven.

Corpus Hermeticum...

Do you not know, Asclepius, that Egypt is an image of heaven, or, to speak more exactly, in Egypt all the operations of the powers which rule and work in heaven have been transferred to earth below?

Nay, it should rather be said that the whole Kosmos dwells in this our land as in its sanctuary. And yet, since it is fitting that wise men should have knowledge of all events before they come to pass, you must not be left in ignorance of this: there will come a time when it will be seen that in vain have the Egyptians honoured the deity with heartfelt piety and assiduous service; and all our holy worship will be found bootless and ineffectual. For the gods will return from earth to heaven.

Hebrews 9

23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence.

Egypt - Image of the Heavens

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by Joecroft
But receiving the Holy Spirit, is something which happens in this life time, where as the, resurrection of the body comes later. (see my post further down)

Also Jesus says nothing about the receiving the Holy Spirit, requiring a resurrected body first. So I’m not even sure, why your putting the 2 together, in that manner…???

Originally posted by Enochwasright
I have shown you this already. What did I show you on this topic? The resurrection started when the dead who were asleep in the grave woke up and rose to new life. This is being born again.

Resurrection does not = “Born Again”

Listen to Jesus…

John 3:3
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

Jesus is talking about being born again in this verse.

And I believe the “see” word was really to do with coming to know, be aware, perceive and understand, what the Kingdom of God is, which is also how one enters it IMO.

I made a thread about it while back…
Seek ye first, the Kingdom of Heaven

Anyway, continuing on…

John 3:4-6
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Now here is the key. Jesus is making a clear reference to the fact, that it’s this new birth in the Spirit, which is what will make a person “born again” on the day they receive it…by his simple use of the phrase “unless they are born of water and spirit”…etc and remember, both John 3:3 and John 3:5 are both coming from the same context as each other….There literally talking about the same stuff, which is why the 2 are tied together…i.e. both “born again” and baptism in the Holy Spirit

And to take this a step further, the water in the verse above is an attribute of the Spirit itself IMO…and has nothing to do with people baptizing themselves in water. Water baptism is really just an outward sign of having already received the true baptism in the Spirit.

Where do I get this water attribute from, well it’s described by Jesus in John 7:38

John 7.38-39
37 On the last and greatest day of the festival, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. 38 Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”[c] 39 By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

So there you have it…

Born Again = Baptism in the Holy Spirit


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft


The very verses you use define being born again in the water before the Spirit. The Spirit comes last, after the water. John 3 is speaking of union with the Spirit, which come after the work of faith is finished. In the sequence, we have Law, Faith, then Spiritual birth when a person knows God face to face. This final step is when faith becomes fact, which it is not at present. This happens when Christ appears a second time to reveal all things. Resurrection is the process of the dead coming to life again, which is involution and evolution. Baptism is our literal immersion into the waters of life.

Involution and Evolution

This process is outlined in 1 Kings 17 when Elijah raised the Widow woman's son. It is outlined in the life of John the Baptist, who was the raised Elijah. How can Elijah be raised if Jesus is the first born from the dead? Elijah was taken and never died. Did Jesus say John was Elijah?

John himself says no.

(John 1:19-21) - "And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he *said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

Jesus revealed the truth:

(Matthew 11:13-14) - "For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14"And if you care to accept it, he himself is Elijah, who was to come."

Why is it important that John was Elijah? Again, read 1 Kings 17. He controlled the dew and rain. What does this mean?

Isaiah 26

19 But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
21 See, the Lord is coming out of his dwelling
to punish the people of the earth for their sins.
The earth will disclose the blood shed on it;
the earth will conceal its slain no longer.

The coming wrath was spoken of by John as well. What does Isaiah say will happen first? YOUR DEAD WILL RISE!

How do they avoid this wrath? Baptism, outlined here:

Matthew 3

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. 9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. 10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

Again, go back to what Paul and Enoch sated. Did they say the wicked and righteous would be raised together in the last days of tribulation? Yes. You logic is ignoring all the scriptures I have shown you, including the ones you used to deny these obvious truths.

reply to post by EnochWasRight

Originally posted by Enochwasright
This final step is when faith becomes fact, which it is not at present.

What do you mean by “when faith becomes fact”…? And how is it not yet present….please explain…?


Faith becomes fact, on the day you receive the Holy Spirit IMO…

And you still haven’t answered my question as to whether you have received the Holy Spirit…> In fact, you haven’t answered any of my questions, and yet you expect me to keep answering all of yours….

Originally posted by Enochwasright
This happens when Christ appears a second time to reveal all things. Resurrection is the process of the dead coming to life again, which is involution and evolution. Baptism is our literal immersion into the waters of life.

So what your stating here, is that Christ has to appear again (The Second coming ) before anyone can fully receive the Holy Spirit...is that right…?

The “see” in John 3:3 really means to come to know, understand and perceive the Kingdom of God. And Jesus clearly says this will happen when the Holy Spirit is received.

Baptism in the Spirit, leads ultimately to the promise of the resurrection; but it does not require the resurrection to be received. And there isn’t a single scripture which states that!

The problem here is, that you still think being “born again” is literal, and that it means to be resurrected etc…

Originally posted by Enochwasright
Again, go back to what Paul and Enoch sated. Did they say the wicked and righteous would be raised together in the last days of tribulation? Yes. You logic is ignoring all the scriptures I have shown you, including the ones you used to deny these obvious truths.

First of all, I don’t believe God is wrathful at all, and that Isaiah, although a great prophet, was tying in his beliefs, with traditions of men, from the past, regarding beliefs on Gods character etc…

Also, I believe in a just judgment from God, and that Baptism is required to avoid it, so I am kind of in agreement with you on that. But I completely differ with you, on the specifics.

But regardless of how I see the details of judgment, it’s a completely separate issue, from what your saying, about having to be resurrected first, before one can receive the Holy Spirit, which is what where discussing….and is the main aspect, that I disagree with you on.


- JC

reply to post by Joecroft

What do you mean by “when faith becomes fact”…? And how is it not yet present….please explain…?

At present, we have evidence for God, but we have not seen God face to face. In other words, we have not met the Father or Son.

Matthew 11:27

27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

It is Faith. It was the Law. It will be fact. Not while we are still Children. We must first be released from the Guardian (Galatians 3). This is where we are now, being released.

1 Corinthians 13

11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

13 So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

As I said, it's a process and we are still sinners. God will lock up the deceiver soon and we will experience fact when Christ steps food on the Mount of Olives.

reply to post by Joecroft

Faith becomes fact, on the day you receive the Holy Spirit IMO…

You are correct. That day has not come yet.