Paranarmal, Wichcraft

Well interested theosis BUT:

I get the point in: Dont focus to much on one thing think of bodey and sol.

But lets be realists here there are allot and i do mean allot of crazy people on this planet but there ideas just give ocultism a bad name. If i scream I AM JESUZ (and for the momnet lets pretend I'm crazy) Doesnt mean hey that dude is crazy and all who believe in jesuz must be crazy too....

On the other hand you did give me a few good reminders about my goal and the tools needed to acheive them.

So thanks for it.

Originally posted by Legalizer
Same goes true for any religion or "esoteric" practice, if your mental state is unbalanced
belief in any "supernatural" thing is going to only bring out your insanity.
This includes Christianity, believe me I've met many a mental patient who
was a bible thumper, Christ certainly didn't heal their mental state and neither
did the psychitrists or drugs.

Interesting how Christ comes under attack even when the thread is about a different topic. Also interesting is the lack of foremention until here and the post above. Well, since the topic was brought up, I'm curious though as to why someone would say, "of course majick works" yet at the same time "Christ doesn't and cannot possibly work." Both require believe/faith in order for anything to happen. I have validated for myself that yes, majick does work (hence my warning against it) and yes, Christ does work (hence my encouragement thereof). The rhetorical question is: who or what do you put your trust into? Self-question, answer not required here.

[edit on 13-7-2006 by saint4God]

Saint4God, Christ is not being attacked here, the crazy people who warp His image are. Big difference. Nor did I read anything about Christ not working. OTOH, I do get the feeling that you're saying "My God is better than yours". YOU are the one here who is condemning my religion; I have yet to see a post here on this thread that is critical of Jesus.

Magick does not require belief or faith (HINT: it's not a faith-based religion), magick is a way of working with the elements of this world, you don't have to believe it, it works on its own quite well; which tells me that you are criticizing something that you don't have much knowledge of.
Question for you: Why do you think Magick is so evil?

mod edit: removed quote

[edit on 16-7-2006 by sanctum]

Please post 'on topic'.

Thanks.

Hi forestlady, I have read the book Wicca a guide for the solitary practitioner by Scott Cunningham and also The Church of Wicca book of Shadows by Lady Tamara Von Forslun , they sounds very interesting and I like the part about rune magic the best, but have yet to try anything without more information or advice.

Anyway, I seem to have problems with spirits from a young age as well as and seek some form of protection from them, can you give me any more advice or information, I would like to know.
Thanks.

Sorry about this Vitali, I am not trying to hijack your thread, I just want some information as well, I may start my own thread later on. Thanks in advance for your understanding and patience.

I would be glad to help you, I will U2U you as this would be off-topic I guess.

Saint4God, I am sincerely interested in hearing your response to my post. Thank you.

[edit on 16-7-2006 by sanctum]

Originally posted by forestlady
Saint4God, Christ is not being attacked here,

Sure he is, did you see what I quoted?

Christ certainly didn't heal their mental state

Quite an assumption, no?

Originally posted by forestlady
the crazy people who warp His image are.

Define "crazy people" please. This sounds judgemental to me.

Originally posted by forestlady
Big difference. Nor did I read anything about Christ not working.

See above and other posts.

Originally posted by forestlady
OTOH, I do get the feeling that you're saying "My God is better than yours".

Apologies that you get that feeling, but it wasn't in what I've submitted.

Originally posted by forestlady
YOU are the one here who is condemning my religion;

How can I condemn your religion when I don't know what it is? No condemning was intended, nor in what I submitted, so again apologies you feel that way.

Originally posted by forestlady
I have yet to see a post here on this thread that is critical of Jesus.

Does not mean they are not here.

Originally posted by forestlady
Magick does not require belief or faith (HINT: it's not a faith-based religion), magick is a way of working with the elements of this world, you don't have to believe it, it works on its own quite well; which tells me that you are criticizing something that you don't have much knowledge of.

Make assumptions if you like. When you practice magick you do believe it will work, do you not? That belief/faith/hope preceeds the action, correct? I'm open to additional information.

Originally posted by forestlady
Question for you: Why do you think Magick is so evil?

Experience. None of which with constitute "proof" by anyone here so it's irrelevant. I'm not here to try to prove to anyone that it is evil. I'm hoping to show that it is dangerous and not worthwhile. That should be a sufficient step.

[edit on 17-7-2006 by saint4God]

Saint4God, please reread Legalizer's quote that you responded to, above. He is not criticizing Jesus, he's saying that there are people who are too crazy to be healed by anyone or anything, whether it be Jesus or magick. I do agree with him there.

Christ certainly didn't heal their mental state

Quite an assumption, no?

Originally posted by forestlady
the crazy people who warp His image are.

Define "crazy people" please. This sounds judgemental to me.

Do I really need to define "crazy"? There are many types of crazy and they all pretty much mean the same thing. What else do you want me to call them?

And you think you're not being judgmental? I am Wiccan, I practice magick and and it is part of my religion. You have, in this thread but also other threads, made a pretty big point of condemning my religion by telling people to stay away from it, it's dangerous and you will lose your soul. I can safely say that I have never made such accusations of your religion, yet any time the subject comes in you feel compelled to warn people away from it. You don't think this is judgmental? During the Inquisition, the Christians burned and tortured many, many witches and spread alot of lies about witches being evil. The witches who were burned were healers who worked with herbs and simple magick to heal, yet the Church's propaganda sitll continues to this day. Whenever I see this propaganda coming to the surface, I try to point it out, I am tired of Christians telling me that my religion is evil/bad/dangerous. It's also called religious discrimination. Saint4God, I don't say your religion is dangerous, please don't say that about mine.
A principle tenet of mages is that you don't have to believe in magick for it to work. Any beginning practitioner knows that. But you claim to know more about my religion than I do. The original intent of this thread was to offer help to someone wanting to learn more about magick. You have been offtopic in more than one of your replies, I suggest we get back to the original topic. If you can't offer help to Vitali, then you are being offtopic, he didn't ask for any of our opinions about whether we thought it was a bad thing or not. He wanted to learn more.

S4G, I will be happy to correspond about this with you on U2U if you wish.
Respectfully,
Forestlady

mod edit: format

[edit on 17-7-2006 by sanctum]

Originally posted by forestlady
And you think you're not being judgmental?

I try not to be, though I know I fall short at times. If you're saying I'm being judgemental, be a friend and point it out specifically.

Originally posted by forestlady
I am Wiccan, I practice magick and and it is part of my religion.

And? Not sure how this is relevant to the discussion. It looks like you're assuming I don't have Wiccan friends and have not had similar discussions before.

Originally posted by forestlady
You have, in this thread but also other threads, made a pretty big point of condemning my religion by telling people to stay away from it, it's dangerous

Are you saying magick is not dangerous? I have not condemned your religion. I have warned people to not practice magick.

Originally posted by forestlady
and you will lose your soul.

I said that? Where please?

Originally posted by forestlady
I can safely say that I have never made such accusations of your religion, yet any time the subject comes in you feel compelled to warn people away from it. You don't think this is judgmental?

I haven't judged a person, only advised against things I've had negative experiences with. If you warn a friend not to fall down the stairs, are you judging them?

Originally posted by forestlady
During the Inquisition, the Christians burned and tortured many, many witches and spread alot of lies about witches being evil. The witches who were burned were healers who worked with herbs and simple magick to heal, yet the Church's propaganda sitll continues to this day. Whenever I see this propaganda coming to the surface,

Christ said, "love your neighbor" and "love your enemy" therefore no-one who follows Christ burned and tortured. Playing the victim here aren't we? Let's stay on topic.

Originally posted by forestlady
I try to point it out, I am tired of Christians telling me that my religion is evil/bad/dangerous.

That may be but I have not done so.

Regarding danger, if I felt it were a danger to me I would not have spent the last two weeks in the house of and under the care of two Wiccans friends. And yes, they are practicioners. Might I add I did not say their religion was evil/bad, nor did they bring it up, nor did they ask me what I thought/knew about magic. I'm pretty sure they know already. If they asked though (as people have a tendency of doing on ATS second only to making statements), I certainly would have expressed it.

Originally posted by forestlady
It's also called religious discrimination. Saint4God, I don't say your religion is dangerous, please don't say that about mine.

You may say what you wish about my beliefs (in fact you did say Christianity is dangerous with unconnected examples of Inquisition and witch burnings...as I said though, not following Christ). I'm even open to discussing why. Though, that's not what this thread is about.

Originally posted by forestlady
A principle tenet of mages is that you don't have to believe in magick for it to work. Any beginning practitioner knows that.

How does one do something without believing it will work?

Originally posted by forestlady
But you claim to know more about my religion than I do.

Where have I made this claim?

Originally posted by forestlady
The original intent of this thread was to offer help to someone wanting to learn more about magick. You have been offtopic in more than one of your replies, I suggest we get back to the original topic.

Maybe slightly, but do try to stick on topic. I thought I've been pretty adherent to "Paranarmal, Wichcraft"

Originally posted by forestlady
If you can't offer help to Vitali, then you are being offtopic,

How do you figure? And, I am trying to help.

Originally posted by forestlady
he didn't ask for any of our opinions about whether we thought it was a bad thing or not. He wanted to learn more.

I'm not giving opinions nor merely thoughts. If he's looking to learn more, I am telling.

Originally posted by forestlady
S4G, I will be happy to correspond about this with you on U2U if you wish.
Respectfully,
Forestlady

I'm fine here unless you'd rather speak on a more personal level. I have no secrets nor find a call to be personal in this instance.


[edit on 17-7-2006 by saint4God]

All i can suggest to the original thread poster, if he is still here, please be very careful in what you attempt.

Magick is not something to just mess around with and should not be taken lightly.

There are dedicated forums out there on the net that deal with stuff specific to what you are talking about. Like the one in my signature.

Anyway good luck and be careful.

Originally posted by LegalizerIf you want to go a more arcane route I suggest you start with
The Art and Practice of Astral Projection by Ophiel, ie, the dearly
departed Edward Peach. Its an excellent place to start, and you can ignore all his
eccentric guru speak since he's been dead since 1988 or so. His creative visualization
and talismanic magick books are good too. I read them when I was 15, back in '85,
and gave away several copies to budding young occultists who were looking for guidance,
they are all still alive and well, none of them went mad or had demon encounters, and any
of the crazy bologna people around here will tell you. I still use basically what I learned in those books only adapted to my own personal style and without teenage guilt like "I'm not following the rules exactly" or "oops I made a mistake, will my soul explode?"...feel free to wing it once you have the basics idea down.

This is one of the best places to start, this is a really good book and will help anyone get started, just take it slow and do EVERYTHING it says and in ORDER.

Originally posted by LegalizerFor a study of more ceremonial magick (ie, bells whistles incense and funny dances), have a look at Modern Magick by Don Kraig, its fairly well written and covers just about everything you'll find from hundreds of other sources.

I have this book, and was told by a friend who has been into this for 20+ years that that Don Kraig book is "Dangerous" so I would avoid that to start.

I recomend learning "Hermetics" the best Author I know of on this is Franz Bardon, his work takes years to complete but if you do the Olphie stuff 1st it will make his system of Hermetics a strong one.

Here is what I would do if I was starting over from where you are at.

Book1 Ophiel's Art and Practice of AP

Book2 Initiation into Hermetics by Franz Bardon

Book3 The Practice of Magical Evocation by Franz Bardon

After that you will have the knowledge you need to decide where to go from there. I would go the Crowley Route, just need practice to read his books being he was a bit. hmm... trying to find a word.. insane almost fits but more like genius.. may Insentric(SP?) is a better label for "The Beast".

I also really really really liked this book…
Ceremonial Magic & The Power of Evocation: A System of Personal Power by Joseph C. Lisiewski

I would recommend that also before the Hermetics either before or after Ophiel, do not try to work with the rituals in this book yet (Too Advanced for beginners) but the history and also conditioning of your subjective mind this book is worth its weight in gold.

I know this is an old post, but hopefully you have not given up on your path.

Hopefully this helps,
Dropline (AKA Hexian)

Originally posted by Dropline

Originally posted by LegalizerFor a study of more ceremonial magick (ie, bells whistles incense and funny dances), have a look at Modern Magick by Don Kraig, its fairly well written and covers just about everything you'll find from hundreds of other sources.

I have this book, and was told by a friend who has been into this for 20+ years that that Don Kraig book is "Dangerous" so I would avoid that to start.

Dropline: Don't know who told you that about Kraig's book. I've read his books, done the exercies and I can tell you there's nothing dangerous about it if you follow his directions. I know him personally and he's one of the best mages I know, as well as having very high integrity with his Magick. If you study his books, you will learn very good magick. IMO, his is the best work along the lines of Golden Dawn/OTO ceremonial magick. So I have to disagree, I think reading his books early on is a great idea.

Forestlady
I agree also I own that book and have read it, I think the reason she said for a starter is not good is after reading Bardon he makes you learn what you are actually doing before you do it. Sort of a self Initiation through Hermetics. I am still new to Bardon but have been into the Occult for a long time but only lately have I been able to do things and really understanding what is going on with what I am doing.

I do not mean to offend his work, as I said the book is great I have an old copy of it 1st edition from early 90s and its one of my most marked up tattered books I own from use. I have even gone through the book and fixed the errors that where made in the latest edition being I do plan to use the book more.

As for Vitali…
I am just giving my opinion of this, the person who told be that was a member of the OTO many years ago and she does know what she is talking about. I even got to read a real deal copy of The Gnostic Mass on OTO letterhead. Read Ophiel as was already posted if you have not already, to read that book correct it will take some time as you must do the lessons if you want it all to work later. Hopefully you will take from that book and understand what I guess I did not say too clearly.

Also I do recommend Modern Magick by Don Kraig as it is a great book for when you are ready. It has a lot of stuff in it from many other sources and does a good job of what it does Magick 101 Fast. After reading some of the books I have read lately I really had to step back and kind of start over. I am trying to avoid that for you.

Also this is all really depends on what you really want to do, my current goal is Evocation to Physical manifestation. Past was just playing with different systems every thing from spirit talking with coins to actually attending Voodoo rituals and was for a short time involved with Santeria but that was a little too much for me at the time.

My background… Grandma was a witch and read Tarot cards (Toth Deck) better then anyone I ever met. My Mother also read cards so good when I was a kid I asked her why people cried when she laid down the cards? She said “Some people do not believe me and I like to show them this is not a parlor trick.” I did not understand that till one day listening to her read I heard her ask a woman about an abortion she had 10 years beforehand, she asked her to stop, started to cry and ends up not even the father of the baby knew about it. I did not really get into magick till I left home when I was 17 after High School, I did read some of the books as a kid my Mom had but I was so young back then I did not understand them. I just wish I had started this when my Grams was still alive. Also I found out a couple years back from my Uncle the “Gift” has been in the family for many generations and he and my Grandma always thought I was the one who got for my Generation thats when I found out She was a witch they never told me that as a kid. My Father’s side on the other hand was heavy catholic that’s why I never did much when I lived under his roof, and I do not tell him about my progress. I do tell my Mom some, but not too much being it will get to Sister and back to Dad.

Good luck on you progress, may it take you far
Tom

Hello and welcome to the world of...other views Vitali

If you wish to learn then you must be open to all not just some find a good teacher one that whould be willing to portect you from the bad and teach you the good in the end you will learn both sides..

As i have, As have many who have travled this path.

The all asked for help as have you now you must find who you teacher is you will know and feel who it is when the time comes..

Blessed be Vitali

May Gaia protect you.

I have seen ghost since I was 13 years old. I believe I saw them earlier in life but did not know what they were. A Ouija board is definitely wrong thing to start out with. I made a mistake of using one when a beginner and had several bad experiences. I learned the hard way to have someone show you the light. I have had several people teach me and feel comfortable now. I am a ordained minister. If you want a really good book to teach you basics of witchcraft. Read an Idiots Guide to Wicca and Witchcraft. Don't take the title to heart and let it hurt your feeling or ego. It is great and explains thing really good.