The Digital Book that Copies Itself

Books. For thousands of years man has come up with different ways to store information. Including papyrus leaves, cuneiform tablets, scrolls, and more recently the codex.


Papyrus Leaves


Cuneiform Tablet


Portion of a Dead Sea Scroll


A Codex

In order to have that information copied from one book to another, in the past it meant taking copying everything by hand. In fact, in Judaism, there were scribes whose job was just that. They dedicated themselves to the copying of books. They were also known as copyists. These copyists were so detailed in their copying of the books, that they would actually count each letter to make sure not one was missing.

Recent technology has allowed us to transfer information from one page to another by copier machines, and even more recently just digital photos.

What if you found a book that contained not only a vast amount of incredible information, but it was also able to replicate itself without the need of a copyist, a copier machine, or a digital camera. What would you think of such an invention?

It was not an invention of any man. In fact the naked eye cannot even perceive it. In order to see such a marvelous book one needs to go to the microscopic level. There inside living things. Yes, we are talking about the DNA molecule.

Many are taught in school, and “higher education” that what is contained within the DNA came about by chance over millions of years. Also we are taught that there is no reasonable evidence of a designer for it. This thread will deal with facts about the matter. It will not tell anyone what to or not to believe. Just present some fascinating facts about the DNA molecule.

First let us put the two premises up for debate. The Bible states that the originator of life is God. Evolutionists postulate that there is no evidence of design in the DNA molecule, in the information contained therein, nor is their evidence of design in the way that it works

If evolutionists are correct then we should see no evidence of design as they affirm. If the Bible is correct there should be signs of an intelligence behind its handiwork. The Bible itself states that human life comes from a book that God created, that he can see, even when a person is in the embryo of his mother’s womb: “Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; all its parts were written in your book regarding the days when they were formed, before any of them existed.” –Psalm 139:16.



Although it may seem like a daunting challenge to understand what the DNA is and how it functions, in simple terms it is quite understandable, and amazing.

We are going to a trip to a huge building. It is a special building. Around us we will observe a human cell. This building is enormous, the size of a huge stadium that can fit tens of thousands of people, and the components of the DNA molecule inside a human cell have been blown up 13 million times their normal size.

Step through the door into the wondrous building and hopefully we can take a tour of the DNA inside the human cell, and see if there really is any mark of design in it.

As we pass through the doors and begin to observe all around us are marvelous structures that make up a human cell . And in the middle of the room is the nucleus, spherical in structure, about 20 stories high.

Enter a door that is attached to the nucleus. This is the outer part, outer skin, as it were of the center of our cell. Inside we see 46 domineering structures. These are chromosomes, about twelve stories high. They look like sausages, with a pinch in the middle of them, with trucks that are massive.

Horizontal bands run across the chromosomes which are divided by vertical lines. In-between the vertical lines are also smaller horizontal bands. These small horizontal bans are loops and as you pull one you notice that it uncoils. Within all these coils is a long rope.

Looking at this chromosome rope, what appears to be a rope anyway, in our model it is merely an inch thick. This rope is looped around what look to be spools. Within these spools are coils within coils that are attached to a scaffold that keeps them in place.

Noticing a plaque on the side of the coils you read the following:

“These coils are the most efficient form of packing known to exist. If you were to uncoil this rope it would stretch halfway around the globe.

Evolutionists have termed the way these coils are packed as: “an extraordinary feat of engineering.” Of course they would then tell you that this in itself would not suggest an engineer was present to create such an organized structure.

Now if you were to take a detour on your trip through this building to a shop that sells trinkets, and it had millions of them all tidily placed together. Would you conclude that there is no reason to believe someone existed to create this shop and put the things in order? Would millions of years be enough to create a trinket store with millions of trinkets all in their place? Yet such organization inside such a store would be very simplistic in comparison to what we are now observing.

Let us return to the room where this marvelous coiling system exists with that small rope that could stretch half-way around the world.

On a pedestal you find that a portion of that vast rope has been laid for your inspection. Pick it up. Do you have it in your hands? Let us observe it more closely!

As you pass your fingers over this rope you realize it is quite extraordinary. Firstly we observe it is made of two strands tightly twisted together. Now these strands are all connected by tiny and evenly spaced bars. Interesting. What do these bars mean? Keep looking, the rope resembles a spiral staircase. Yes! It is a replica of a DNA molecule you are holding in your hand.



One of these DNA molecules packed together as it was in these spools make up this chromosome we have been observing. Now remember the bars that separated the two strands of the rope twisted upon each other? They are known as “base pairs” in scientific jargon. Yet why would a rope need to be separated as it were by bars like this? What is its function?

You find another plaque and read it: “The bars that separate these ropes come in four types known as A, T, G, and C. These are letters of a digital alphabet, conveying information in coded form.”

You may perhaps know of Morse code. It has two letters. Look at the code below, you will notice that these two letters, a dot and a dash can easily make up the entire English alphabet.

The DNA has four letters, A, T, G, C, as we know them, and they can be arranged together just as Morse code, to form words, words and be combined to create chapters, and chapters can be combined to create a full book. The words in scientific terms are known as “codons.” The chapters are known as “genes.” And the complete book these are written in is known as the “genome.” This book contains everything there is about, in this case, the human body.



Now do you think this book is small or big? What would a book look like that would contain all the words contained within the digital code of a human genome?

Well, in total there are about three billion base pairs (the bars that separate the two ropes from each other.) If you were to add these words into a book the size of a thousand page encyclopedia, you would need 428 such volumes to hold all of the information encoded therein. Adding a second copy that appears in the cell would double that number to 856.

If a human typing by himself to fill that book up, copying the information digitally encoded in the genome, it would take maybe 80 years or so to do.

How to compress that much information into all of the trillions of cells in the human body? Here is an amazing fact about DNA:

“One gram of DNA, which when dry would occupy a volume of approximately one cubic centimeter, can store as much information as approximately one trillion CDs.”

Nano Letters, “Enumeration of DNA Molecules Bound to a Nanomechanical Oscillator

Now here is another logical question worthy of reflection: If you found a digital book with billions of words in it all put together to create a machine of awesome ability, would you consider that it must have had an author, or that it did not?

The DNA is a book. It has an alphabet. And it has words that are ordered together in a precise manner in order to transmit a tremendous amount of information. But the genome is more than just a book. Here is another quote worthy of attention from the book Genome—The Autobiography of a Species in 23 Chapters:

“The genome is a very clever book, because in the right conditions it can both photocopy itself and read itself.

Let us return now to the tour we are having inside this huge building. Now notice something you haven’t notice before. The room you are in is not quiet or still. Look around in wonder as you notice that it is indeed a huge factory with specialized parts each designed to carry out specific functions. It is indeed more complex than the most complex human-made factory. Perhaps you do not understand what each machine is doing. So let us take a closer look, and see how this marvelous book can both read itself and copy itself!

You see a group of robots that from a distance look like a complex machine. They are all joined together. This “machine” attaches itself to the DNA and begins to move along its helix, much as a train rides the rails of a train-track. Its motion in real time is too fast to see what is happening, so we slow it down considerably to be able to see.

In a very simplified version of what really happens we see that this “machine” made up of a group of robots is moving along the helix of the DNA and separating the rope, making two, instead of one. These robots in scientific terms are known as “enzymes.” They follow the rope of the DNA ladder splitting it into two. And as it travels it takes each strand and replicates it. All the parts are not shown in our demonstration however. Some are too complex to explain in simple terms. There is a device, for example that runs on ahead of our group of robots that will snip at a side of the DNA so it can twirl freely and not get intertwined in itself. Also there is a “proofreading” that happens several times to each strand so that errors can be detected and corrected.




In real life the enzyme can move along the track, or the DNA strand, at 100 bars, or base pairs every second! (In bacteria it moves 10x faster). The entire book of the genome can be copied in eight hours.

This “machine” which was really a group of robots now moves off. Can you see another machine approaching? Now this machine starts to run along the tracks as well, at a slower pace. The DNA rope enters one end of the machine and exits the other end. You wonder what is happening until you look to the side and see another single strand emerging out of a separate opening. This is what scientists’ term “transcription.”




What is happening? Well in order to get the DNA from inside the cell to another cell this machine uses what is known as RNA to copy the information found in the DNA. Then after it receives this information it leaves the nucleus and heads to a ribosome where the information collected will be used to manufacture a “protein.”

This is a very simplistic look at a very complicated function that is carried on within a human cell. There is much much more going on.

Contemplate the following question, what effort would it take for a human to create a building that would show us all this marvelous machinery? Some of it is not even understood by the brightest of scientists even today. And for what is termed “junk DNA?” New advances are being made, and more and more of it is being discovered to contain not “junk” at all, but important information. Certainly the possibility that more will be learned about it in the coming years.

Ask yourself this question. Could such a marvelous biological machine come into existence by chance? If given millions of years? There is much more to the equation that is not even being looked at in this OP.

Now some will say it all started simply in the beginning. But is that even really true? Even the most simple of organisms, it has been discovered, on the microscopic level, are of tremendous complexity.

Yet, what would you conclude. If you were to enter into a room with a master computer performing extraordinary feats of computation and transcription and reproduction, would you assume that it just came about by chance?

Holy buckets, you did a lot of work here.

All for the Digital Media association to come along and bust the book for copyright infringement.



Kindle will have your head on a platter.

Growing books is a similar idea (not sure if you touched on it, you seem to refer a lot to DNA, and man, I've not had a coffee yet so my level of comprehension is out the door) but crystals that can grow to a set design. All the information stored as a seed.

Random numbers are not so random until they are seeded. 1 number can produce the same set each time.

I remember thinking about this when I was 12 or so.. on a BBS with other guys as we coded assembley code on 6502 processors..

so a crystal that could grow into the information.. ahh if they coulda they woulda. we can now for sure I know it.

"Hey baby, read any good crystals lately?"
"Get away from me you book head..."

oO

Broom

Yet, what would you conclude. If you were to enter into a room with a master computer performing extraordinary feats of computation and transcription and reproduction, would you assume that it just came about by chance?

This process is the best of all.

One video and that's it...

Molecular Visualizations of DNA - Original High Quality Version
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjPcT1uUZiE
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Broom


I recommend looking into and familiarizing with Complexity Theory.

In short, the more complex a collection of X is, the more likely there will be interactions of organization.

Pour water into any container and regardless of how sloppily you do so, the water will self organize to the shape of the container.
Such does not indicate the organization to be the product of any intelligence.

In short, yes, over hundreds of Millions and Billions of years, DNA could very well self organize.

Additionally, given the age of the Universe, the prospect of panspermia could just as well account for some additional Billions of years of evolution for that elusive spark of organized life.

reply to post by AliceBleachWhite


A human has about 50,000 proteins. The chances of one of these folding onto itself correctly is one in a billion billion billion. That is far beyond the mere millions or billions of years the universe has existed. How do you get around this quandry?

ETA: I am not disrespecting your answer. Just wondering if you knew this. It seems to me those that claim that the mere millions of years life has been in existence should give us ample time to evolve incredibly complex structures of amazing design and function. Yet it appears these people really don't understand the time scales involved for such things to happen. That is why I pose the question. One of reflection.

reply to post by Broom


Argument from Incredulity

You may not understand it.
It might just be amazing and complex.
It does not, however, mean it was created through artificial means.

AliceBleachWhite
reply to post by Broom

 

Argument from Incredulity

You may not understand it.
It might just be amazing and complex.
It does not, however, mean it was created through artificial means.

It is something to think about though.

ETA:

Put another way. There are those who claim that if they put a monkey on a typewriter that he will eventually type out word for word all of the works of Shakespeare, which is quite small in comparison to the words contained in the human genome. But is it really logical to conclude that any monkey or group of monkeys would ever, given any amount of time, be able to do so? No, it does not seem logical. It is impossible. Yet evolution claims the impossible is not only possible, it happens quite frequently. And what would take a billion billion billion years, can happen in a mere few million, hundreds, no thousands, no millions of times over. ??? Think about that.

reply to post by Broom


It's not just random. It has a cause. It has a reason. Equilibrium.

If you look at a human today and say it took thousands of years to make it, and then think that thousands of years ago a human just popped intoi place, then you come across the problem you describe.

But it was a process of trial and error, changing from things that did not work to things that worked, those that did work, continued. Shaped by the environment. Shaped by the harshness of the planet as it became less violent. Equilibrium leads us to where we are now, and to us, it all seems pretty stable. But we're stille volving. The earth is still changing. In another hundred thousand years, if we're still around, we will not be human. But whatever we are, will not have suddenly just popped into existence either.

Life does not suddenly pop up. It becomes.

If you had to seek out a warm fire but you were blind, you'd eventually find it by using your other senses. You wouldn't get there and then go "I was always here, it must be magical how I knew exactly where the fire was!"

And if there were thousands of you all doing it, some would die in the corner, never finding the warmth. To them, this magical fate was absolute horror. Why did they have to die, when so many of you found the warmth.

That's evolution. We're the result of the bits that worked. It's highly arrogant of us to assume we were always this way.

AbleEndangered

Broom

Yet, what would you conclude. If you were to enter into a room with a master computer performing extraordinary feats of computation and transcription and reproduction, would you assume that it just came about by chance?

This process is the best of all.

One video and that's it...

Molecular Visualizations of DNA - Original High Quality Version
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjPcT1uUZiE
www.youtube.com...

edit on 19-10-2013 by AbleEndangered because: format

Thank you AbleEndangered. That is an excellent video for this OP. Excellent!

winofiend
reply to post by Broom

 

That's evolution. We're the result of the bits that worked. It's highly arrogant of us to assume we were always this way.

That is an interesting saying.

Of course it reminds me of a similar saying written a long time ago: "In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; all his thoughts are: “There is no God.” - Psalm 10:4.

Is it arrogance to believe we had a designer, or is it arrogance to assume we did not?

ETA:

It still doesn't answer the question of how in so little a time we have come to be, when the universe hasn't been around long enough for us to exist yet, according to chance.

reply to post by Broom


Great OP - S&F!

This topic interests me very much but am on the run now. Will be back to post soon though...

Again - well done!

reply to post by Broom


Consider the Snowflake.

Here we have a radial symmetric complex geometry sufficiently diverse in expression such that each individual snowflake could be representative of a unique idea, or even a book.
A light dusting of snow taking into account the originality of geometrically complex, yet radially organized and symmetric mirroring similar current information storage paradigms against information loss, could very well express and encode the entire bulk of all knowledge known and lost by mankind.

One could theoretically store the entire knowledge of everything in a bucket.

Does this mean that clouds are communicating with us using geometrically complex radially symmetric packets of crystalline information?
No.

So how long till I can get a shot that uploads say the library of congress?

I know, I know I am just thinking of something in the sci fi realm but it would be cool. No more studying college comes in a shot.

Broom
A human has about 50,000 proteins. The chances of one of these folding onto itself correctly is one in a billion billion billion.
How do you get around this quandry?

Chemistry follows the laws of physics.
A protein will fold correctly based on the exact same laws of physics that place a 104.45 degree angle in the water molecule. It doesnt happen by "chance" no matter how much you, and other creationists, like to repeat the word.

Many are taught in school, and “higher education” that what is contained within the DNA came about by chance...

Could such a marvelous biological machine come into existence by chance?

...would you assume that it just came about by chance?

reply to post by alfa1


You use the word chance as if it were God. Shouldn't it be more appropriate to capitalize it? Chance did this, and Chance did that. Using the word that way makes much more sense.

ETA: As you were told on another thread, the broom is not a creationist. There you falsely accused him, and he corrected you. And here you keep up the facade. But that raises the quandary as to why? You know the answer.

reply to post by Broom


I answer the question of "is there a god" by remembering who put the question there.

Was it man? For what reason?

It is not arrogant to conclude there is no god. It is humbling to realise that we're not that important in the grand scheme of things, that a creator would give us paradise... then let us rot in hell.

To realise that we're only as much as we make of ourselves.

The medical profession will have you believe that the pills they sell are absolutely required. I feel the same about the church.

Grimpachi
So how long till I can get a shot that uploads say the library of congress?

I know, I know I am just thinking of something in the sci fi realm but it would be cool. No more studying college comes in a shot.

Knowledge loses it's value when everyone has the same level of it.



We'll never have a way to become more knowledgeable with organic matter in our heads. We've got the devices to provide us with all we need. We just have to ensure that we're always plugged in.

That's the problem I forsee. Where we will need to be online as much as we need to eat, in order to actually survive.

winofiend
reply to post by Broom

 

It is humbling to realise that we're not that important in the grand scheme of things,

Agreed. In fact an ancient book concurs: "O Jehovah, what is man that you should notice him, the son of mortal man that you should pay attention to him? Man resembles a mere breath; his days are like a passing shadow." - Psalm 144:3, 4.

For us to think that we are anything more than mere dust is mere futility, and the height of arrogance to look away and not see these facts. Another interesting passage talks about the fact that the ability to see design in the world and universe around us makes it inexcusable for one to conclude that he merely came to be.

Is it humility to curse a god that doesn't exist? Or is it arrogance to try and curse one that same one denies?

reply to post by Broom


Another AMAZING post! Way to go Broom!

My understanding is that although we consider DNA to be "digital" information. The brain, for example, works in fields. i.e. nothing like a digital computer. I'd be curious to here what everyone thinks about being able to copy/download a person into a computer, as Kurzweil has predicted.