Caesars Messiah Debunked - Covert Messiah Refuted - Joe Artwill

This is a good video debunking the theory that Caesars invented Jesus. I will not outline an 11 minute video for you. It speaks for itself. The title of the thread tells you what you need to know. There are many very interesting references in this video.

Link to Website

reply to post by EnochWasRight


I'm glad someone finally did this. I even considered making a website and linking to references so that this charlatan could be refuted every time his name creeped up in the press. Star and Flag. Lets see if your thread gets as much traction as Atwills PR stunt did here on ATS.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


To start with the OP has misspelled Joseph Atwill's name. so when you google it you get nothing. It is not Joe Artwill,;
It is Joseph Atwill.
I have read Atwill's book and watched several of his youtube videos.Atwill is not the only writer who believes the Flavians wrote the New Testament. Ralph Ellis has written 3 well researched books explaining that the Jesus of the New Testament is fiction.& he makes a stronger case than Atwill.
You cam google "Ralph Ellis/ Jesus,King of Edessa /youtube" and do your own research.
I watched the video in the OP & IMHO it is the typical ,fast talking , & confusing hit piece for people who have no intention of doing serious research.
There was a historical Jesus who was born circa 14 AD & led the revolt against Rome & was captured by the Romans in 70 AD.This well documented Jesus was a Gnostic warrior King & not a pacifist wimp as written about in the New Testament....A few real quotes found there way into the New Testament .One of which was " I come not to bring peace but a sword."

Here is Joseph Atwill's response to James Holding's video .

caesarsmessiah.com...'s-response-to-j-p-holding's-criticism-of-caesar's-messiah/

Oh it gets better...


freethoughtblogs.com...


I mean come on... Rome writing gospels in Greek? Using hellenistic slang to convey messages? That's like the KKK inventing hiphop...

HunkaHunka
Oh it gets better...


freethoughtblogs.com...


I mean come on... Rome writing gospels in Greek? Using hellenistic slang to convey messages? That's like the KKK inventing hiphop...

The above post isn't a seriously thought out idea.[IMO]..and then he has a link to a guy selling Mormonism;
a religion that has been proven to be a fabrication by it's founder Joseph Smith. Just as the New Testament is a fabrication.
Faith = Belief without Evidence.

reply to post by cathar



www.fargonasphere.com...

Forget everything you may have learned in Sunday School. The New Testament was written by Roman patricians, among them The Calpurnius Piso family that was descended from one of the generals in the army of Alexander the Great. The family included such famous people as Cleopatra, the Ptolemys, Pythagoras, Flavius Josephus, and the Roman Emperor Titus Flavius Vespasiani.

Alexander a Macedonian. Considered himself to be a Greek. So the family could quite rightly consider themselves to be at least partially Greek.

cathar

HunkaHunka
Oh it gets better...


freethoughtblogs.com...


I mean come on... Rome writing gospels in Greek? Using hellenistic slang to convey messages? That's like the KKK inventing hiphop...

The above post isn't a seriously thought out idea.[IMO]..and then he has a link to a guy selling Mormonism;

You obviously have no idea who Richard Carrier is. Him promoting Mormonism is about as likely as John Boehner promoting Obamacare -- it's called third party targeted advertising.

As for Carrier's debunking of Atwill, you obviously didn't bother to read it if you think that he makes no substantive claims.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


This won't be the last we see of people who desperately want to be the first to somehow prove Jesus was pure fiction.
The purge of Christianity has begun in many ways throughout a lot countries and it is only going to increase in the weeks and months and years ahead.
Anyone who knows the signs to watch for know that this will be the final sign that will usher in the new world order and the new world religion.
"you will be hated for my names sake".... the deception will be so great that even the very elect will be fooled, namely the Vatican.
Families will be torn apart, and communities, people will turn on neighbors.
Hating Christians today is trendy and we all know how trends work...people won't want to be left out,
I see it on this site all the time....there are groups of people on this site who salivate at the prospect of being the first poster in a Christian thread, ready to let us all know they have all the answers and we are all delusional.
Trust me the "proof" that will set this all off will be far greater and far more profound than this little blurb...

reply to post by EnochWasRight


The guy says at the 3:50 mark that worship of Jesus supersedes the political authorities. He forgot to mention that Jesus said pay Caesars things to Caesar. Give to Caesars his things already. We have no king but Caesar said by the chief priest. It mentions Caesar 21 times and Rome 15 times in the bible. Also I think this is Chris White who is a Calvinist.

cathar

HunkaHunka
Oh it gets better...


freethoughtblogs.com...


I mean come on... Rome writing gospels in Greek? Using hellenistic slang to convey messages? That's like the KKK inventing hiphop...

The above post isn't a seriously thought out idea.[IMO]..and then he has a link to a guy selling Mormonism;
a religion that has been proven to be a fabrication by it's founder Joseph Smith. Just as the New Testament is a fabrication.
Faith = Belief without Evidence.

Uhm no the guy is an atheist... not a mormon ;-)

cathar

HunkaHunka
Oh it gets better...


freethoughtblogs.com...


I mean come on... Rome writing gospels in Greek? Using hellenistic slang to convey messages? That's like the KKK inventing hiphop...

The above post isn't a seriously thought out idea.[IMO]..and then he has a link to a guy selling Mormonism;
a religion that has been proven to be a fabrication by it's founder Joseph Smith. Just as the New Testament is a fabrication.
Faith = Belief without Evidence.

Congrats, You are living breathing proof that people who hate Christianity are just as religious as people who love it. You're religious about your hate. How do you feel?

Thanks for stopping to read the relevant material. The next time you roflsauce yourself up a young earth creationist, bare this moment in mind.

ETA:

Why am I not surprised this thread has been totally passed over without any comment from those who waved the pom poms on Atwill's cheerleading squad so well here at ATS?

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Classic result of a thread and a line of thinking being allowed to die because it doesn't fit into the current playbook that the good agents at ATS use to direct opinions and lines of thought.
They create the original thread using info from a book and theory that is already over five years old.
But when presented with evidence that shows that those theories have been debunked they don't even try to debate the issue or refute the counter claims. Now if these people were true atheists they would still be here in droves counter arguing the claims.
But they aren't because most of them are not atheists but paid flamers used to direct specific opinions and ideas in specific directions without people even knowing.
Notice how they have avoided this thread. Because they have been directed to other issues until the next anti Christian thread can be created.
No one has posted on this thread since 4.30 am Oct 16th.
But as soon as I post this, I predict within the hour someone will come forward and post a rebuttal to my post, and it will mostly contain references to my sanity and not to the subject at hand.

HunkaHunka
Oh it gets better...


freethoughtblogs.com...


I mean come on... Rome writing gospels in Greek? Using hellenistic slang to convey messages? That's like the KKK inventing hiphop...

Actually, the argument is quite sound. If the UK wants to influence the politics of Afghanistan, for instance, to make it more UK friendly - you don't write your propaganda in English.

The Romans would have known this.

Rome was pretty p!ssed off about the Jewish Revolt, and wanted to quell the troublesome East. What they did, is to get their pet Jewish traitor-historian, Josephus Flavius, to concoct a spiritual romance about the Jewish Revolt. And we know that this is a good possibility, because Luke and Acts are packed with material from Josephus Flavius' other books.

The only problem is that Atwill concentrated on textural analysis, and did not prove his thesis. If he had concentrated on the events and characters, this theory is actually quite easy to prove.

Ralph

reply to post by ralfellis

this theory is actually quite easy to prove.

Prove away, then.

I have seen all sorts of ridiculous claims regarding the Romans and the writing of the Bible, and absolutely none of them stand up to scrutiny.

But, if it's "quite easy to prove," you're welcome to be the next one to attempt it.

adjensen

You obviously have no idea who Richard Carrier is. Him promoting Mormonism is about as likely as John Boehner promoting Obamacare -- it's called third party targeted advertising.

Richard Carrier is an enigma. He purports to be an Atheist, and yet his theological compatriots do include devout Mormons. And Carrier mentions Mormonism quite often.

But the more pertinent problem with Richard Carrier, in this regard, is his lack of knowledge. The following is a summary of the religio-historical points Carrier knew nothing about, when I posted on his site....
And rather than discuss these topics, he merely deletes posting after posting and bans people from his site. Since when did academia hide behind censorship?



>>Richard Carrier says:
>>No mention is made of any arms being taken (onto the Mount of Olives).
Eh? Has Dr Carrier ever read the New Testament? Jesus ordered swords to be purchased in Luke 22:36. They were delivered to Jesus in Luke 22:38. Jesus went to the Mount of Olives in Luke 22:39. And those same swords were used on the Mount of Olives in 22:50 to cut off an ear. So why does Prof Richard Carrier not know of this?

>>Richard Carrier says:
>>Jesus is not the high priest in any Gospel narrative.
Yet Hebrews 7 details how and why Jesus became High Priest. The explanation is complex, because Jesus was not a Levite and needed an excuse, but luckily Hebrews 3:1 and 8:1 give a summary. The first of these says: “Consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus” That sounds like a High Priest to me.

>>Richard Carrier says:
>>There is no revolt in the Gospels.
Yet Mark 15:7 says, quote:
“And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made revolution with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.”
In what way is that not a revolution?

>>Richard Carrier says:
>>Barabbas was the leader of the revolt, not the
>>Gospel Jesus. And Barabbas ... is not crucified.
It appears that Richard Carrier does not know that Barabbas was also called Jesus; and that the Koran, the Talmud and the Gospel of Barnabas all say there was a switch of characters, and so Jesus was not crucified.

>>Richard Carrier says:
>>The only Jesus the Talmudic rabbis know about died
>>before the Romans arrived in Judaea.
Jesus is called Yeshu the Nazarene in five places in the Talmud (see Sanhedrin 43).
In addition, the Jewish Encyclopaedia says:
“the pseudonym ‘Balaam’ is given to Jesus in Sanh. 106b and Giṭ. 57a”
So Jesus is to be found in the Talmud, under the name ‘Yeshu the Nazarene’ and under the pseudonym ‘Balaam’. Why does Richard Carrier not know of this?

>>Richard Carrier says:
>>The Vulgate Cycle misidentifies Vespasian as the son of Titus.
If this was not so sad, it would be funny. Here is a professor of history who does not know that the Vulgate Cycle has the opposite naming convention for the Flavian emperors, to that given by modern scholarship. (Because Vespasian and Titus have exactly the same names - Titus Flavius Vespasianus Augustus - they can be easily confused). Please see the book 'King Jesus' for details.

>>Richard Carrier says:
>>The Vulgate Cycle (calls) Vespasian a leper rather than the emperor.
It would appear that Richard Carrier does not know that lepros (a leper) refers to someone with scales (of a fish). Thus Vespasian (ie: Titus) was being identified as a supporter of Christianity, because the symbol of Christianity was and is the fish (the Christian Ichthus).

I cannot imagine any professor, especially one with the ego of Richard Carrier, not knowing any of this. Just what does he know?


Ralph