The Fallacy of Collectivism - Ludwig von Mises

Krazysh0t
We don't want you in America, the place founded on freedom and doing what you want, not what someone else tells you to do.

I'm not over there. Why would you assume I was?

Because of my deeply flawed English?

I even filled out my location

reply to post by Pejeu

"In hindsight it may even seem inevitable that a socialist society will starve when it runs out of capitalists."

-Larry Niven

Did you watch any of the docos I posted?

People like you erode my faith in humanity.

I fear for the long term future of our species without full-scale adoption of eugenics.

Soon.

Here are another few docos on the topic:

reply to post by Pejeu

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

-Winston Churchill

You could give Cleverbot a run for its money.



Then again, he is clever.

reply to post by Pejeu

"The great non sequitur committed by defenders of the State, including classical Aristotelian and Thomist philosophers, is to leap from the necessity of society to the necessity of the State."

-Murray Rothbard

reply to post by Pejeu

Please explain why socialism did this in your country.

For Romania's Orphans, Adoption Is Still A Rarity

Pejeu
Did you watch any of the docos I posted?

People like you erode my faith in humanity.

I fear for the long term future of our species without full-scale adoption of eugenics.

Soon.

Here are another few docos on the topic:

edit on 2013/10/17 by Pejeu because: (no reason given)

Eugenics, statism, putting people in the camps for their own good..my, my, we are an intense little Nazi, aren't we?

reply to post by Pejeu


But you haven't provided any evidence. The respected economists you quote do not say what you think they say. Reading comprehension is key there and you lack it. Yes, you do provide youtube videos of nutjobs who say what you say, but that is not "scientific evidence." (Do you even know what scientific evidence is?)



ETA: businesses should raise capital by offering shares to investors for a profit? I agree that this is one way to raise capital, but man-o-man, that was the very opposite of socialism! I thought you were a socialist? LOL.

NavyDoc
reply to post by Pejeu

 

But you haven't provided any evidence.

Evidence of what?

The respected economists you quote do not say what you think they say.

What do you posit are they saying, then?

Reading comprehension is key there and you lack it.

Oh, really?

Why don't you go ahead and explain to me as it is patently obvious my grasp and command of English is so sorely lacking I'm unable to understand what not just English speaking economists and bankers admit and assert.

Enlighten me, please.

Enlighten me how "money creation by banks" actually means something entirely different in common parlance.

Kindly Start with the excerpts listed here:

www.positivemoney.org...

Yes, you do provide youtube videos of nutjobs who say what you say, but that is not "scientific evidence." (Do you even know what scientific evidence is?)

You need scientific evidence for basic math and reasoning?

Do you also need proof that 7 > 5 ?

There are such things as axioms and truisms, you know.

ETA: businesses should raise capital by offering shares to investors for a profit? I agree that this is one way to raise capital, but man-o-man, that was the very opposite of socialism! I thought you were a socialist? LOL.

Why do you see a contradiction there?

What seems incongruent with socialism in what I've said?

reply to post by greencmp

I haven't been able to figure out whether Pejeu's usage of all the documentaries regarding the international banking system/Federal Reserve are an utterly brilliant new tactic to confuse the dialog... or they truly don't understand that they are attacking the very system implemented by openly stated socialists that allows a socialist system to exist in the first place.

I honestly never thought I'd see someone use G. Edward Griffin in defense of socialism.

It must be genius... because even I'm not jaded enough yet to believe someone could miss the message so... so... there actually isn't a word I can think of to describe the magnitude of how much the message has been missed.

reply to post by Pejeu


Raising capital to expand a business for profit is the very antithesis of socialism.


We get it, like the Nazis you hate jewish bankers, are a statist, favor eugenics for the undesireables, would put people into camps, etc.

Luckily we stopped your ilk in 1945 and hopefully will continue to do so.

BardingTheBard
reply to post by greencmp

 

It must be genius... because even I'm not jaded enough yet to believe someone could miss the message so... so... there actually isn't a word I can think of to describe the magnitude of how much the message has been missed.

I've thought of a word to describe him. I'll give you a hint it starts with a t and rhymes with bowl. Keep talking to him though, they are always hungry.

Pejeu
People like you erode my faith in humanity.

I fear for the long term future of our species without full-scale adoption of eugenics.

The movie you linked to... Idiocracy... is displaying a socialist society.

A system is in place where everyone is taken care of by the state where all their needs are accounted for and taken care of. There are some charged with managing the system, but the system is so much larger than them they can't fully account for the long term effect of their actions... thus everyone winds up drinking the state sponsored Brondo and watering their lawns with it.

LOOK at the movie. Really LOOK at it. Nobody is required to do anything because everything is taken care of. LOOK at what happens to them over time. Not just the first couple of decades while people are still alive who remember what personal responsibility is whether there is anyone around to pick you up when you fall or not... as opposed to people who have only ever experienced "the government will handle it if something goes wrong" and don't know what to do when the government encounters something it *can't* handle.

Krazysh0t
I've thought of a word to describe him. I'll give you a hint it starts with a t and rhymes with bowl. Keep talking to him though, they are always hungry.

/salute

I'll confess a secret I discovered about internet "debate" when running amok on Usenet in the late 90's that helps guide the approach.

Rarely are any of us really talking to the person we're discussing with... but the much larger audience of silent observers.

Hello all of you! Thank you for your time and consideration of the information being offered!

They are the ones that take the nature of the discussion with them and ripple effect the information provided out into the rest of the world and day to day lives, conversations over dinner, etc. "I read an interesting thing today I had never heard of before..."

To our honorable audience... I submit for your consideration the support of government sponsored eradication of you and your ability to have children (thus the eradication of your children before they even exist) if you don't agree with them. Will they hand this ability for eugenics over to someone who disagrees with them? Of course not.

The truest litmus test of anyone and the things they support is if they would be willing to be subject to it themselves. If not... you can take great comfort in rejecting whatever they support until they are willing to be subject to it themselves.

Those who run socialist societies have never lived within the limitations of the society they created for everyone else, nor allowed themselves to be subjected to the same rules and laws as those they are "helping".

Any system which *requires* you to "be a certain way" in order to function eventually has to resort to violence and imprisonment in order to survive.

Pejeu
People like you erode my faith in humanity.

I fear for the long term future of our species without full-scale adoption of eugenics.

Soon.

But always remember... they love you so much they want to take care of you.

I see your Idiocracy and I raise you The Lives of Others

"Take care of you..."

VINCENT
Well, Marsellus is leavin' for Florida and when he's gone, he wants me to take care of Mia.

JULES
Take care of her?

Making a gun out of his finger and placing it to his head.

I tend to piss off my fellow americans without wanting to, because I don't see the same sort of view that is socially acceptable to them.

I tend to see the worship of the American Constitution, for example, as that entity which the collective is under pressure to worship- like some countries use a religious figure, political leader, or book, as the axe of their cultural philosophy, and that is guarded by laws and social pressure.
It's pretty cultish.

But here's my view-

Every society HAS to have ideal, values, morals and a collective focus in common in order to build a nation. They need a thesis to hold together.
It has to create a collective "enemy" or antithesis to create glue.

This is a big world, with a bunch of different nations, that have each chosen slightly different cultures.
The individual simply chooses one which reflects his/her particular preferences and goals!

I am not sure freedom of the individual is something a government needs to "give" you... I suspect it might, in most cases, be yours already.

But surpassing the self, and ones own attachments to familiar (even those that we don't like) is a challenge all it's own, and I can understand why some people woudl choose to stick with the familiar discomfort, than to take the chance at an unknown!

BardingTheBard

The movie you linked to... Idiocracy... is displaying a socialist society.

A system is in place where everyone is taken care of by the state where all their needs are accounted for and taken care of. There are some charged with managing the system, but the system is so much larger than them they can't fully account for the long term effect of their actions... thus everyone winds up drinking the state sponsored Brondo and watering their lawns with it.

LOOK at the movie. Really LOOK at it. Nobody is required to do anything because everything is taken care of. LOOK at what happens to them over time. Not just the first couple of decades while people are still alive who remember what personal responsibility is whether there is anyone around to pick you up when you fall or not... as opposed to people who have only ever experienced "the government will handle it if something goes wrong" and don't know what to do when the government encounters something it *can't* handle.

That is a curious opinion. I have watched that movie countless times, and have never been able to see it as anything but the illustration of a Corporatocracy!

Though I guess one might see social ownership by the corporations... I never got the sense that profit and accumulation of capital had been eliminated there....I might watch that agin and see if I can glimpse that particular view.

Bluesma
I am not sure freedom of the individual is something a government needs to "give" you... I suspect it might, in most cases, be yours already.

That is the fundamental principle of the US Bill of Rights... and what separated it from everything else at the time. And more or less still does to this day.

Bluesma
That is a curious opinion. I have watched that movie countless times, and have never been able to see it as anything but the illustration of a Corporatocracy!

Though I guess one might see social ownership by the corporations... I never got the sense that profit and accumulation of capital had been eliminated there....I might watch that agin and see if I can glimpse that particular view.

Yeah, it's tricky until you really dig into it. Just because there is a corporate name on it doesn't make it a corporation the way a free market corporation that depends on actually satisfied customers is.

It's just a name because "United States Energy Drink" is too obvious compared to "Brondo". But give it a marketing name and marketing budget while operating it as a state corporation and people think they are making a consumer decision.

If the state sponsored corporation is in danger of falling... the state has to intervene in whatever way possible because it depends on the inflow of capital from the state sponsored corporation. Customers choosing to drink "free" water threaten the very state itself so long as the state and corporation are a "public cooperative enterprise".

All competition had been removed and the state/corporate entity became unified such that the only option you have are the state sponsored/supported "corporations" and when the state/corporation decided what the right course of action for the survival of the state/corporation and how to "take care of those below them"... you wind up with everyone watering lawns with Brondo.

Which is just an amplified version of "You can't raise chickens in your back yard" or "You can't sell milk you produce on your ranch... only state/corporate approved entities may sell milk".